Valerius
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Neolithic Refuge and Continuity in Transylvania
- Thread starter PaleoRevenge
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PaleoRevenge
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Link was posted in genarchivist
Akbari2026imputed_1240K_rsids_K36_results_G25_sims_labeled.csv
1 file sent via WeTransfer, the simplest way to send your files around the world
Probably in 3-4 days we will have real G25s
Migration era samples with Paleo-Balkan Y will rarely be helpful in placing the BA-IA origin of said Y-DNA. In this data set there's two J-L283>Z38300 guys under BY196032 who are likely early Slavic samples. Earliest Z38300>BY196032 this far is an Illyrian outlier sample from Iron Age Tarquinia. Those two Slavic BY611 represent dead ends and the Z2705 guys are likely very recent medieval or even Ottoman era samples. As for West Balkan lineages in "Thracian" contexts, those will be nothing more than singletons just as we see some arbitrary E-V13 in the west during Late Iron Age.
Reminder when it comes to R-Z2103>CTS1450/CTS9219>Z2705/PH970:
Early iron age Illyrian Glasinac-Mati sample 114690 from Çinamak, Kukës is highly likely R-BY611: 114690 ~1050 BCE R-CTS1450
SNPs No coverage on BY611 and BY251- FT61900-Y223170- FT21459-Y255725-Y30192-Y23373-
He has no coverage on BY611 (ancestor of Z2705) while being negative for most other parallel CTS1450 branches incl. downstream BY611>Y23373, so could have potentially been the first confirmed BY611 on a brother branch of Y23373.
Reminder when it comes to R-Z2103>CTS1450/CTS9219>Z2705/PH970:
Early iron age Illyrian Glasinac-Mati sample 114690 from Çinamak, Kukës is highly likely R-BY611: 114690 ~1050 BCE R-CTS1450
SNPs No coverage on BY611 and BY251- FT61900-Y223170- FT21459-Y255725-Y30192-Y23373-
He has no coverage on BY611 (ancestor of Z2705) while being negative for most other parallel CTS1450 branches incl. downstream BY611>Y23373, so could have potentially been the first confirmed BY611 on a brother branch of Y23373.
PaleoRevenge
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There are three Slavic ones, one partially Slavic, two dead branches and one likely R-Z2705 and one definitely per broder. Based on their ID numbers these three are from the Bulgarian paper.
What are dead end branches of R-BY611 doing in early medieval Bulgaria? Why not in Italy, or Croatia. Keep mumbling about the lily land.
One clear R-Z2705, you're hoping it's Ottoman period. OK.
someone is sour.
Could have, should have, but he ain't. Lot's of hoping and coping. All four points rely on best case scenario and extreme ones too, toilet paper tier theories.
What are dead end branches of R-BY611 doing in early medieval Bulgaria? Why not in Italy, or Croatia. Keep mumbling about the lily land.
One clear R-Z2705, you're hoping it's Ottoman period. OK.
someone is sour.
Could have, should have, but he ain't. Lot's of hoping and coping. All four points rely on best case scenario and extreme ones too, toilet paper tier theories.
Obviously I40319 and I39569 are not telling us much besides that BY611 was more widespread - I mean we have a German from Poland and a Sardinian as BY611*, so these samples don’t change the picture much.
I41663 and I43465 seem to be in a sea of Slavic linages like CTS10228 so the context should be post medieval.
I41663 and I43465 seem to be in a sea of Slavic linages like CTS10228 so the context should be post medieval.
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Real G25s have been posted in genarchivist
Quickly scanning through a sample right in the middle of EIA BGR samples for example is E-BY6170, with ID from Bulgaria I41740, I'm sure there are plenty of others, branches completely unrelated to Kapitan site, which the talibans were claiming is the only Thracian haplogroup. Pointless lies and slanders.
And another I43564, https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y145455/, plots straight in the middle of BGR EIA cluster. The whole lie melts apart. Unlucky ehh?
Quickly scanning through a sample right in the middle of EIA BGR samples for example is E-BY6170, with ID from Bulgaria I41740, I'm sure there are plenty of others, branches completely unrelated to Kapitan site, which the talibans were claiming is the only Thracian haplogroup. Pointless lies and slanders.
And another I43564, https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y145455/, plots straight in the middle of BGR EIA cluster. The whole lie melts apart. Unlucky ehh?
PaleoRevenge
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E-V13 samples that plot exactly like south Thracian samples, I'm sure there are others near the old cluster but I only focused on what plots inside it. Many many branches unrelated to Kapitaan site, some of these branches are quite important to Albanians, it includes the one that rrenjet bois wrote an article on where they slandered it as Illyrian. There is even a rare J2a that has only one modern Albanian and an Iraqi, that plots Thracian. So there Thracians are Thracians no matter from Dacia or what not, the only difference is some Thracian groups had more steppe pull by mixing with other populations, this is what created the illusion of Illyrian like samples from Himera, nothing more. A true mixed sample with Illyrians would actually plot between Illyrians and Thracians, this so far has not happened, because the two populations rarely mixed.
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PaleoRevenge
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And the cousin clade to Albanians most import R1b branch, R-Z2705
PaleoRevenge
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Das E-V13
A clear core region from South Thracian up to medieval Albanian, though these could be Slavic admixed individuals, this overall cline has always existed. Also the modern Balkan cline is just a slightly tilted Daco-Thracian cline, as they are the point of origin.
The ones that plot near Cinamak are likely result of Celtic admixture and don;t form a coherent cluster, I'm sure IBDs will show the lack of relation to Illyrians.
A clear core region from South Thracian up to medieval Albanian, though these could be Slavic admixed individuals, this overall cline has always existed. Also the modern Balkan cline is just a slightly tilted Daco-Thracian cline, as they are the point of origin.
The ones that plot near Cinamak are likely result of Celtic admixture and don;t form a coherent cluster, I'm sure IBDs will show the lack of relation to Illyrians.
PaleoRevenge
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What happens if the Celts represented by Hungary La Tene mixed with Dacians and Thracians, take guess.
FTD60421 is a shallow sublcade, only like 1700 years old and mostly represented by Tatars now days: https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-FTD60421/story
Their closest relative under Y79836 is an Anglo American at 2900ybp.
Their closest relative under Y79836 is an Anglo American at 2900ybp.
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This guy might be R-Z2705: I28424.AG R-CTS9219, he has Alb mtDNA. Can you drill and take a look?
This guy seems to have lower coverage overall but he is Z2705-
Can you plug all of these guys on a PCA?
I16767
I18797
I25954
I26211
I26204
I26506
I26695
I26724
I28428
I28424
I29153
I29184
I29484
I131639
I131710
I43560
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Reds
PaleoRevenge
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I'd say the core is Cinamak, a few seem like Illyrians in Apulia. One seems Thracian, another one or two might be MKD, or simply Illyrians with Roman era(MENA pull).
Yeah, those may be Iapygians - there was a ‘leak’ that one of them may be BY251, so could be one of those samples.
But yes, core seems Illyrian Cinamak like. I28428 is even PH925, like that other Cinamak sample, Beli Manastir R3542 and that Czech Hallsttat I14983 fella.
But yes, core seems Illyrian Cinamak like. I28428 is even PH925, like that other Cinamak sample, Beli Manastir R3542 and that Czech Hallsttat I14983 fella.
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All R-CTS9219 in red, and known subgroups broken out:
I excluded breaking out R-BY611 and the cousin branch, but broke out the rest. R-BY250 is clearly lllyrian, some Roman era likely. I also broke out R-Y18959 and sub-branches of it, but did not break out R-Y10789. Interesting to see since R-Y10789 is closest to R-Y18959 than other known branches of R-CTS1450. One branch of R-FGC43622 is clearly Thracian, and likely belongs to this branch R-Y255725.
I excluded breaking out R-BY611 and the cousin branch, but broke out the rest. R-BY250 is clearly lllyrian, some Roman era likely. I also broke out R-Y18959 and sub-branches of it, but did not break out R-Y10789. Interesting to see since R-Y10789 is closest to R-Y18959 than other known branches of R-CTS1450. One branch of R-FGC43622 is clearly Thracian, and likely belongs to this branch R-Y255725.
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The old South Thracian samples are still in the top rank ANF-region and some had, on top of that, more Anatolian-related admixture than others.
We can also check that with other confirmed Thracian samples we have, like this female:
www.exploreyourdna.com
She (I5769) is from North of the Balkan/Haemus mountains, Dzhulyunitsa (Veliko Tarnovo province, Lyaskovets municipality), and has lower non-European and more steppe also. If I plot here and do the usual admixture run, she ends up closer with the 2 Northern male individuals.
At the same time with another individual from Rozovo, South Thrace, Bulgaria_LIA.AG:I19500.AG__BC_250__Cov_38.87%,0.118376,0.161469,0.001131,-0.057494,0.020927,-0.011156,-0.00329,-0.003231,-0.001432,0.031891,0.002436,0.009292,-0.01665,0.003028,-0.019815,-0.02201,0.000391,0.005954,0.012821,-0.005253,-0.006114,0.008656,-0.003574,0.006748,-0.010538
His coverage is not great, he is from the Late Iron Age and he was assigned to E-BY14160, which also shows an Aegean-Anatolian pull, just like the three I singled out from the Old South Thracian set. The branch he has E-BY14160 is clearly South Thracian oriented and was later found in Byzantine Anatolia and modern Turks also, having branches in the Near East, being overall as Southern or more Southern than E-BY5022.
The crucial point here is, the Aegean-Anatolian backflow is more likely to be stronger in South of the Haemus/Balkan mountains than North of it. And we might just see that. Here is the PCA to illustrate the pattern:
Nearly all samples in the current set with such a South Eastern pull and less steppe/HG ancestry have Southern branches like E-BY5022, E-BY14160 and E-Y19509. Even the most ANF-rich samples from E-FGC11457, E-L241, E-Y3183 and E-CTS9320 in the set are still with the Northern oriented two males, the North Bulgarian female ("Thracian") and still more Northern than them.
And I don't think that's by chance, because again, the chances for such a South Eastern pull in the earlier Thracian period, before the Roman admixture, which sticks out if being big in most instances, are much greater South of the Balkan mountains - it fits with sites like Kapitan Andreevo and Rozovo.
You can also see the very pure (practically no HG, practically no Iranian) E-CTS2001 sample (I44144) which just like I46263 being pulled towards Salcuta/Salcuta-Bodrogkeresztur/w. steppe admixture. But only there, directly down, not to the right.
On the other hand, the late Thracian from Rozovo being primarily pulled to the right, towards the Aegean-Anatolian.
This kind of proves the suspicion that the most Southern Thracian fringe received some sort of Aegean-Anatolian admixture EXTRA which the original Thracian core likely didn't have. Because even the two typical males from the same site don't have it (as much) and the same is true for the female from North of the Balkan mountains. Again, these are all well-documented samples and the new batch of E-V13 individuals with Thracian-like autosomals just proves the point, because they all appear less admixed and more Northern - even without clear traces of non-Thracian admixture!
And even more important: Those which are probably even more pure and Southern pulled, being pulled towards Salcuta/Vinca/Barcin, pure ANF, NOT Tepecik-Çiftlik-like ancestry, like the outliers in the South East!
This tells us the high ANF was typically Proto-Thracian, but the increased Tepecik-Çiftlik-like admixture was quite likely not, but picked up in the South East first. And the Kapitan Andreevo samples show the process, because some indivdiuals (male Thracian lineages) are still rather unmixed/less mixed, while especially the R-Z93 and the female are already more heavily shifted.
Especially in the later periods, this is likely to separate unmixed North from South Thracians. In the North Thracians, more Celtic-like, steppe-like, Kyjatice-like and Illyrian-like (in the West) admixture will be more typical. Just going by the high density cluster of both the new and old samples, one might ask whether that's the Daco-Thracian core profile:
In all directions from it, relevant samples thin out.
Of the Vekerzug individuals, one of the South Eastern shifted ones is clearly in that circle, the other barely so and from Thracian Hallstatt Kartal only one individual makes it, Kartal 1 (UKR001)
www.exploreyourdna.com
UKR007, the E-V13, doesn't make it, but he gets close and looks just a bit mixed with some more HG/steppe rich source.
www.exploreyourdna.com
The other two East Thracians (MJ-12, UKR002) are completely out of range.
On a sidenote, the haplogroups other than E-V13 most commonly associated with the Thracian-type ancestry appear to be R-P312/L2 (Bell Beaker? Tumulus culture?) and R-Z2109. There are a lot of R-Z2109 samples all over the place and we can't date many of the samples either, but that's just what's popping up. The connection to R-P312 and R-Z2109 is in any case stronger than to J-L283, which is something worth being pointed out, regardless of how old than pairing is in many sets.
We can also check that with other confirmed Thracian samples we have, like this female:
I5769 - Ancient DNA Sample - Genetic Ancestry Analysis
Ancient DNA sample I5769 from Bulgaria. Bulgaria_Dzhulyunitsa_IA
She (I5769) is from North of the Balkan/Haemus mountains, Dzhulyunitsa (Veliko Tarnovo province, Lyaskovets municipality), and has lower non-European and more steppe also. If I plot here and do the usual admixture run, she ends up closer with the 2 Northern male individuals.
At the same time with another individual from Rozovo, South Thrace, Bulgaria_LIA.AG:I19500.AG__BC_250__Cov_38.87%,0.118376,0.161469,0.001131,-0.057494,0.020927,-0.011156,-0.00329,-0.003231,-0.001432,0.031891,0.002436,0.009292,-0.01665,0.003028,-0.019815,-0.02201,0.000391,0.005954,0.012821,-0.005253,-0.006114,0.008656,-0.003574,0.006748,-0.010538
His coverage is not great, he is from the Late Iron Age and he was assigned to E-BY14160, which also shows an Aegean-Anatolian pull, just like the three I singled out from the Old South Thracian set. The branch he has E-BY14160 is clearly South Thracian oriented and was later found in Byzantine Anatolia and modern Turks also, having branches in the Near East, being overall as Southern or more Southern than E-BY5022.
The crucial point here is, the Aegean-Anatolian backflow is more likely to be stronger in South of the Haemus/Balkan mountains than North of it. And we might just see that. Here is the PCA to illustrate the pattern:
Nearly all samples in the current set with such a South Eastern pull and less steppe/HG ancestry have Southern branches like E-BY5022, E-BY14160 and E-Y19509. Even the most ANF-rich samples from E-FGC11457, E-L241, E-Y3183 and E-CTS9320 in the set are still with the Northern oriented two males, the North Bulgarian female ("Thracian") and still more Northern than them.
And I don't think that's by chance, because again, the chances for such a South Eastern pull in the earlier Thracian period, before the Roman admixture, which sticks out if being big in most instances, are much greater South of the Balkan mountains - it fits with sites like Kapitan Andreevo and Rozovo.
You can also see the very pure (practically no HG, practically no Iranian) E-CTS2001 sample (I44144) which just like I46263 being pulled towards Salcuta/Salcuta-Bodrogkeresztur/w. steppe admixture. But only there, directly down, not to the right.
On the other hand, the late Thracian from Rozovo being primarily pulled to the right, towards the Aegean-Anatolian.
This kind of proves the suspicion that the most Southern Thracian fringe received some sort of Aegean-Anatolian admixture EXTRA which the original Thracian core likely didn't have. Because even the two typical males from the same site don't have it (as much) and the same is true for the female from North of the Balkan mountains. Again, these are all well-documented samples and the new batch of E-V13 individuals with Thracian-like autosomals just proves the point, because they all appear less admixed and more Northern - even without clear traces of non-Thracian admixture!
And even more important: Those which are probably even more pure and Southern pulled, being pulled towards Salcuta/Vinca/Barcin, pure ANF, NOT Tepecik-Çiftlik-like ancestry, like the outliers in the South East!
This tells us the high ANF was typically Proto-Thracian, but the increased Tepecik-Çiftlik-like admixture was quite likely not, but picked up in the South East first. And the Kapitan Andreevo samples show the process, because some indivdiuals (male Thracian lineages) are still rather unmixed/less mixed, while especially the R-Z93 and the female are already more heavily shifted.
Especially in the later periods, this is likely to separate unmixed North from South Thracians. In the North Thracians, more Celtic-like, steppe-like, Kyjatice-like and Illyrian-like (in the West) admixture will be more typical. Just going by the high density cluster of both the new and old samples, one might ask whether that's the Daco-Thracian core profile:
In all directions from it, relevant samples thin out.
Of the Vekerzug individuals, one of the South Eastern shifted ones is clearly in that circle, the other barely so and from Thracian Hallstatt Kartal only one individual makes it, Kartal 1 (UKR001)
saag_UKR001 - Ancient DNA Sample - Genetic Ancestry Analysis
Ancient DNA sample saag_UKR001 from Ukraine. Ukraine_Odesa_ThracianHallstatt_EIA
UKR007, the E-V13, doesn't make it, but he gets close and looks just a bit mixed with some more HG/steppe rich source.
saag_UKR007 - Ancient DNA Sample - Genetic Ancestry Analysis
Ancient DNA sample saag_UKR007 from Ukraine. Ukraine_Odesa_ThracianHallstatt_EIA
The other two East Thracians (MJ-12, UKR002) are completely out of range.
On a sidenote, the haplogroups other than E-V13 most commonly associated with the Thracian-type ancestry appear to be R-P312/L2 (Bell Beaker? Tumulus culture?) and R-Z2109. There are a lot of R-Z2109 samples all over the place and we can't date many of the samples either, but that's just what's popping up. The connection to R-P312 and R-Z2109 is in any case stronger than to J-L283, which is something worth being pointed out, regardless of how old than pairing is in many sets.
PaleoRevenge
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These are the matches for the parallel branch to R-Z2705, there is also one that I pointed out yesterday that belongs to R-FGC43622, a modern Slavic branch.
The most important Alb medevial sample as proven by IBD sharings
Closest match out 16k samples is a E-V13. The E-V13 sample is also likely MIA and comes from a site full of E-V13s. Other close matches are rare branch of R-Z2103 and R-M73, rare branches of I.