New big paper on Catalan Y-DNA

BTW, some Lebanese really are surprisingly white, especially among their Christian community. It's definitely not uncommon to see Lebanese people who can easily pass for being even French or northern Italian, never mind Andalusian or Sicilian. Same goes for Syrians. But of course it's also true that many, if not most Lebanese carry a strong "semitic" look.
 
BTW, some Lebanese really are surprisingly white, especially among their Christian community. It's definitely not uncommon to see Lebanese people who can easily pass for being even French or northern Italian, never mind Andalusian or Sicilian. Same goes for Syrians. But of course it's also true that many, if not most Lebanese carry a strong "semitic" look.

As I discussed with Alan, the similarities, in my opinion, are due to shared EEF like ancestry, in general, and the fact that due to climatic differences, the selection for depigmentation alleles was not as strong in some parts of southern Europe as it was in most of northern Europe. There are definitely differences, however. The Levant has seen inflows of other "components", including recent SSA. (even in the Lebanese Christians) Certain Near Eastern populations have a lot more ANE than southern Europeans as well and some of what I might describe as "Indic" admixture or Siberian admixture. There might also be heavier selection (after the Neolithic) for certain phenotypes, and later migrations spread them around. Of course, steppe migrations brought some of those phenotypes all over Europe. However, an additional dose probably hit the southeastern and some parts of the south central Mediterranean (and even southwest Mediterranean to some lesser degree) with later Bronze Age and perhaps Iron Age migrations.

The result is that there is some overlap. However, without some serious cherrypicking going on, an average group of Levantines would not "fit" very well in southern Europe, not even the Christian Levantines, although better in some places than in others. And I'm extremely familiar with both groups. :) Could some fit? Absolutely. Are there anything other than a few outliers who look more "European" to north Europeans than do average southern Europeans? No. I can assure you that if I'm walking around the Universita' degli Stranieri in Perugia or the University in Florence I have no trouble distinguishing the Italians from the Lebanese in the vast majority of cases. Whether a northern European or even more, a North American" could do so is a whole other story. I'm afraid that for them dark hair, eyes, an olive complexion, and anything other than a concave nose means you look like modern Near Easterners. There's a lot more to it than that.

However, if there is going to be an extended discussion of phenotypes, let's take it to the physical anthropology thread.

The reason that Christian Levantines and even the Druze to some extent look more "European" is because, in my opinion, they are a relict of more "ancient" population groups which did not get as much gene flow from perhaps more drifted Arabian genetics and phenotypes and also from the slaves imported by the Arabs.
 
I agree with you. When I spoke of societies that tend to be regarded by some as "inferior", in one way or another, I meant that from a contemporary perspective. Muslims once had the largest empire in the world, were the leading people in sciences and education and had Europe's most thriving learning center in Cordoba. But how many people know or remember that today?

I found this interesting (although I dont agree with the title) documentary that goes into detail of all events (if one has enough time to watch it all) from the initial mass coverstion to Islam and reasons behind it, to the re coverstion to Christianity and final expulsions and the reasons for it. I have to say I find the details quite correct.


In our days, when people think of the Middle East or Africa, they mostly think of religious fanaticism, economic issues, shocking cultural habits, endless wars, dictatorships, political instability... many people feel uncomfortable to associate themselves with that.

Correct, thats what it boils down to
 
The result is that there is some overlap. However, without some serious cherrypicking going on, an average group of Levantines would not "fit" very well in southern Europe, not even the Christian Levantines, although better in some places than in others. And I'm extremely familiar with both groups. :) Could some fit? Absolutely. Are there anything other than a few outliers who look more "European" to north Europeans than do average southern Europeans?

I agree and its also my impression, and of course I have met a few Lebanese, however as Degredado pointed out southern Levantines and even North Africans do distinguish a difference between their northern neighbors (as in Lebanese. Syrians and maybe Iraqis) (generally speaking that is)
 
There was no manipulation and lies. Do you really think I care enough about Iberians to lie about them? You are paranoid.

But your insecurities really give people on this board something to laugh about. Look kid, Stop with the baseless accusation against people; I don't care and I'm sure others certainly don't either.

Of course there was (carefully chosen pictures & carefully chosen quotes from Eupedia/Maciamo.) And yes, you apparently do care a lot, otherwise you wouldn't have started the whole thing in the first place. It is troublemakers like you who show plenty of insecurities and are the laughing stock of those better informed.
 
I found this interesting (although I dont agree with the title) documentary that goes into detail of all events (if one has enough time to watch it all) from the initial mass coverstion to Islam and reasons behind it, to the re coverstion to Christianity and final expulsions and the reasons for it. I have to say I find the details quite correct.




Correct, thats what it boils down to

Thank goodness that you are not Iberian and remarked on what the documentary says about the well-known mass conversions of natives to Islam making up the majority of the Muslim population, otherwise rest assured someone would have tried to pull the "you have insecurities" card just for actually stating facts that they do not find convenient for their agendas.
 
Thank goodness that you are not Iberian and remarked on what the documentary says about the well-known mass conversions of natives to Islam making up the majority of the Muslim population, otherwise rest assured someone would have tried to pull the "you have insecurities" card just for actually stating facts that they do not find convenient for their agendas.

Of course there was (carefully chosen pictures & carefully chosen quotes from Eupedia/Maciamo.) And yes, you apparently do care a lot, otherwise you wouldn't have started the whole thing in the first place. It is troublemakers like you who show plenty of insecurities and are the laughing stock of those better informed.

Subconscious self critique or alzheimer?
 
Subconscious self critique or alzheimer?
lol you got him there! He keeps pulling this "agenda" and "troublemaker" card...And I never even did anything to him! lol
 
As I discussed with Alan, the similarities, in my opinion, are due to shared EEF like ancestry, in general, and the fact that due to climatic differences, the selection for depigmentation alleles was not as strong in some parts of southern Europe as it was in most of northern Europe. There are definitely differences, however. The Levant has seen inflows of other "components", including recent SSA. (even in the Lebanese Christians) Certain Near Eastern populations have a lot more ANE than southern Europeans as well and some of what I might describe as "Indic" admixture or Siberian admixture. There might also be heavier selection (after the Neolithic) for certain phenotypes, and later migrations spread them around. Of course, steppe migrations brought some of those phenotypes all over Europe. However, an additional dose probably hit the southeastern and some parts of the south central Mediterranean (and even southwest Mediterranean to some lesser degree) with later Bronze Age and perhaps Iron Age migrations.

In addition to all that, I believe Lebanese Christians have historically interacted and intermixed a lot more with Europeans, especially French (since the Crusades and all the way to the 20th century), than the Muslim community has.

Just to illustrate, here are some people of Christian Lebanese background in Brazil:

Ellen Jabour
camiseta-ellen-jabour-ramones.jpg

Arnaldo Jabor
comentario-arnaldo-jabor1.jpg

Alberto Youssef
550280c1b52a60020dcfd87512e6b12f.jpg

Gilberto Kassab
noticia_241142_img1_kassab1.jpg

Of course I wouldn't be surprised if they are actually mixed with other ethnicities, seeing as how Lebanese immigrants and their descendants tend to be quite well off (all that ancestral Phoenician business skill) and thus often marry into local elites.

But anyhow, back to the thread topic. :smile:
 
In addition to all that, I believe Lebanese Christians have historically interacted and intermixed a lot more with Europeans, especially French (since the Crusades and all the way to the 20th century), than the Muslim community has.

Just to illustrate, here are some people of Christian Lebanese background in Brazil:

Brazil holds the biggest group out of the Lebanese diaspora.

here is another one born to Lebanese parents in Colombia. Shakira = Grateful in Arabic :)

shakira-1396551062.jpg
 
lol you got him there! He keeps pulling this "agenda" and "troublemaker" card...And I never even did anything to him! lol

I experienced this many times already. Every time anyone mentions any African or Near Eastern genetic influence in Iberia, or "browns" them in any way, they go defensive bananas. You are lucky only one Iberian Celtic warrior showed up.
 
I experienced this many times already. Every time anyone mentions any African or Near Eastern genetic influence in Iberia, or "browns" them in any way, they go defensive bananas. You are lucky only one Iberian Celtic warrior showed up.
I see. I believe that the Basques are the only remaining "Celtic" or "Celtiberian" population (metaphorically speaking) that still thrive in the Iberian peninsula. Seeing as they are the most homogeneous population and which carry the least admixture. The rest of the population of Spain and Portugal is mixed with all kinds of peoples. Visigoths, Romans, Celts, Alans, Vandals, Greeks, Sephardic Jewish, Moorish, Phoenician etc.
 
You seem puzzled by things that have very simple answers: by taking over already existing buildings (like Cathedrals) and using them for themselves, by using local labor to build new ones (done by virtually every empire in history), as well as aided by an ever increasing number of natives who converted to Islam. The exact same reason why you have dozens and dozens of such Islamic buildings all over the Middle East, North Africa, the Balkans and even parts of Asia. Or do you seriously think they were all built by "Arabs"? Before they invaded other areas of the world, spreading their religion in the process, there were no Islamic buildings anywhere but in the Arabian Peninsula. By the 8th century AD there were already Mosques in places as far apart as Cordoba and Xi'an (China.)

I do not recall that moors/berbers have ever been arabs..........they are different people
 
I see. I believe that the Basques are the only remaining "Celtic" or "Celtiberian" population (metaphorically speaking) that still thrive in the Iberian peninsula. Seeing as they are the most homogeneous population and which carry the least admixture. The rest of the population of Spain and Portugal is mixed with all kinds of peoples. Visigoths, Romans, Celts, Alans, Vandals, Greeks, Sephardic Jewish, Moorish, Phoenician etc.

Never mind him, he has a well known history of siding with any real troublemakers who happen to come to these forums as long as they target Iberians, so his uncalled for and rude comments against normal forum posters are hardly surprising. As for the rest of your post, you have already been exposed and debunked on virtually all counts. Forced to never be able to back up your statements with actual facts, you are pretty much reduced to just keep on gratuitously repeating them despite having been proven wrong.
 
I do not recall that moors/berbers have ever been arabs..........they are different people

"Berbers" no, that is more specific, but "Moor" is a term that in the Middle Ages often also included Arabs (it even many times included all Muslims, no matter where they were from.) But the point is that the Berbers and everyone else got Islam from the Arabs, who were a comparatively small minority of military invaders outside their homeland in the Arabian Peninsula. Expecting that they personally built all Islamic buildings found outside of Arabia is highly unrealistic, almost like thinking that Berbers built everything having to do with Islam in Iberia.
 
"Berbers" no, that is more specific, but "Moor" is a term that in the Middle Ages often also included Arabs (it even many times included all Muslims, no matter where they were from.) But the point is that the Berbers and everyone else got Islam from the Arabs, who were a comparatively small minority of military invaders outside their homeland in the Arabian Peninsula. Expecting that they personally built all Islamic buildings found outside of Arabia is highly unrealistic, almost like thinking that Berbers built everything having to do with Islam in Iberia.

following a religion or a language does not make one loose their original ethnicity.............arabs never built anything, while the others that became arab via language were building things.

it's like in anatolia , they only became turkish from 1100AD after turkic people entered their lands, there are less than 10% of turkic genes in anatolia, yet we call all anatolians, turks today
 
lol you got him there! He keeps pulling this "agenda" and "troublemaker" card...And I never even did anything to him! lol

No, not to me directly, but you did come to these forums trying to paint phony pictures of an entire region of Europe for who-knows what personal purposes. In the process you also tried to manipulate what this website actually says to try to back up your weird claims. Did you think you were going to get away with it and no one was going to say anything and put things back in the proper perspective?
 
following a religion or a language does not make one loose their original ethnicity.............arabs never built anything, while the others that became arab via language were building things.

it's like in anatolia , they only became turkish from 1100AD after turkic people entered their lands, there are less than 10% of turkic genes in anatolia, yet we call all anatolians, turks today

Well, saying that Arabs never built anything is the other end of the extreme opinion. Obviously they built many things themselves, but predominantly in their homeland, where they formed the bulk the population.

In the case you are using as an example, "Arab" would also have an ethno-linguistic connotation. The word "Arab" in this sense also includes any Arabic-speakers, just like "Turk" also includes any Turkish-speakers, even if ethnically speaking they are not so.
 
Well, saying that Arabs never built anything is the other end of the extreme opinion. Obviously they built many things themselves, but predominantly in their homeland, where they formed the bulk the population.

In the case you are using as an example, "Arab" would also have an ethno-linguistic connotation. The word "Arab" in this sense also includes any Arabic-speakers, just like "Turk" also includes any Turkish-speakers, even if ethnically speaking they are not so.

let me know what the arabs built and I will check it out.

changing language does not change your ethnicity............if you believe it does, then you are English currently:good_job:
 
let me know what the arabs built and I will check it out.

changing language does not change your ethnicity............if you believe it does, then you are English currently:good_job:


1- Look at all the Mosques in the Arabian Peninsula

2- I did not disagree with the language thing
 
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