Isn't that the Varna branch? That would rather speak for a back migration with Sea Peoples or Greeks. By the way, the branch was formed 800 ybp, TMRCA 300 ybp, so this is just one family. I guess its from this paper on Egypt, where they intensively tested one region, and this seems to be a more recent founder event there.
But great to see that it was so successful in Egypt.
Indeed, for proving the opposite, a lot of E-L618 with deep structure would be need in moderns, even much better ancient DNA. Branches like the one found are very shallow and young, they don't prove that.
The interesting part about it, is that it has a big founder in North Africa, which however has, like the Egyptians, shallow diversity and depth. This proves that, probably with Greeks, various E-L618 branches spread to other regions. Note we have now a couple of Mycenaean Greek-related E-L618 samples. Presumably because they picked them up, from around the Western steppe-Danube, in my opinion. Like the Kydonia sample suggests too.
It is funny that, as of now, we have more evidence for E-L618 in old Mycenaean Greeks than for E-V13. Much more actually.
In this case we have two parallel E-L618 branches, which both ended up in North Africa, presumably rather recently. For the Varna branch its practically for sure.
Indeed, for proving the opposite, a lot of E-L618 with deep structure would be need in moderns, even much better ancient DNA. Branches like the one found are very shallow and young, they don't prove that.
The interesting part about it, is that it has a big founder in North Africa, which however has, like the Egyptians, shallow diversity and depth. This proves that, probably with Greeks, various E-L618 branches spread to other regions. Note we have now a couple of Mycenaean Greek-related E-L618 samples. Presumably because they picked them up, from around the Western steppe-Danube, in my opinion. Like the Kydonia sample suggests too.
It is funny that, as of now, we have more evidence for E-L618 in old Mycenaean Greeks than for E-V13. Much more actually.
In this case we have two parallel E-L618 branches, which both ended up in North Africa, presumably rather recently. For the Varna branch its practically for sure.
I believe it's not a accurate to compare the two subclades.
For one the main North African and Arabian samples have a TMRCA of approximately 2800, which isn't shallow relative to the subclade (E-Y182141) which is also 2800, FTDNA TMRCAs different slightly but I find yfull more reliable.
There's also a Tunisian sample on FTDNA that is basal E-Y182141, showing more diversity in North Africa.
The Varna sample shows that the subclade is old in Europe, but I find it equally likely if not more likely that the initial dispersion 3000 years ago started in North Africa and went to Europe as opposed to the other way around. The Algeria-Tunisia region being of great significance.
This is why I started this thread in the first place because I hope these new basal L618 and CTS1975 samples could possibly shed more light on the origin and dispersion of these E-V13 sibling clades. Sadly most are not upgraded to big y so what we can gleam from them is limited.
We won't know for sure, but the samples we got from the Greek sphere so far point to E-L618 being associated with incoming Mycenaean Greeks, rather. E-L618 was quite obviously significant in Tripolye-Cucuteni groups and like I have written before, I think that E-V13 too came from that context. Tripolye-Cucuteni is one of the few Copper Age groups which did cremate or left no burial traces at all, as did the later Daco-Thracian groups.
All the later E-L618 found so far, from around the Carpatho-Balkans, had some steppe and the samples with Copper Age branches from Tripolye-Cucuteni/the Carpatho-Balkan sphere in Crete all looked like being half Mycenaean Greek and half local. And I'm pretty sure that those yDNA lineages, not just E-L618, but others too, came in with the newcomers.
For E-L618 branches what's rather shallow or deep is different to E-V13, since some branches are way older than that. An Iron Age TMRCA is not particularly deep. I also think, that some of them were definitely spilled by Sea Peoples South, which had a strong participation from the Mycenaean sphere also.
I rather think they were in the East Balkans, and the Mycenaeans took them into their ranks. Because its not just E-L618, but other haplogroups as well. That's making this scenario highly likely, even more so since they were found side by side in Crete, the same branches we found in Thracian Hallstatt. That gives us the connection between the Carpatho-Danubian-Western steppe area and the Mycenaeans. But of course, more samples to confirm this and being able to reconstruct the exact migration path would be great.
I think we will find E-L618 more often in Mycenaean Greeks, but right now that's just a hypothesis, we need more to bolster it.
there was actually 1 mycenaean under pre-e-m84
i know this thread about e-L618 branches
still GLI002 was pre-e-m84 (it was an extremely rare case and it is probably rare dead end branch of e-m34)
p.s
you mention mycenaeans still nice to know there was an E case among them even if it is extremely rare one
Something that caught my eye is an English sample in the Lancaster DNA project, which is placed under the subheading of "E-V13". These are the SNP testing results of the sample:
I'm not showing the name in case there is any privacy rule in the forum, but it is a sample in a public DNA project. The markers predict the sample to be E-V12 so it could be pre V12, I also think pre l618 is possible.
Whole genome sequencing of this sample could be very interesting who knows it might even form a branch with the Taforalt ancient dna samples.
The Italian sample that was previously L618* now has its own subclade defined with 11 shared SNPs.
As of now it is the only sample in that group, there may be a new big y sample that could form the group with it or else it could be a scientific sample or even an ancient sample.
Hopefully we know in a few days once the discovery tree updates, or else the week after this update.
There is also a Sephardic Jewish sample that is L618+ negative for CTS1975. No markers tested only Family Finder but since it is the first Jewish sample here it will likely form an old branch.
The E-M35 project has a new Czech sample that is E-CTS1975 from Family Finder. No markers.
As of now there are many L618+ and V13- samples on familytreedna. Hopefully they are upgraded in the future, they could form branches with some of the ancient samples we already have. A bunch of older studies also have M78+ samples negative to V13, V22, V65, and V12, and these samples could also explain them.
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