Society New map of average male body height in Europe, the Middle East and North Africa

[Maciamo]

I noticed that there was no good map covering all countries with serious data, so I made one.

This map was made based on the combined data from Wikipedia, Worlddata.info, a study by Grasgruber et al. (2016) (for the Middle East and North Africa), Diggita (for Italian regions) and Destatis (for German states). Other anthropological studies not published online were used for Dutch, French and Spanish regions.

 

[Tutkun Arnaut]

Kosovo average height for male population is 181! The mistake is 4 inches! Also Albanian average height for male population is 175 cm. How come Greeks are taller than Turks when they share identical gene pool? Stormfront map?

 

[Ernekar]

Numbers for northern albanians are not right.

Average height for Prishtina(northern albanians) is 179.52 cm.
And that is the number for urban populations. If you start measuring the mountaineers you will get an even higher number some places.

So for better accuracy i would suggest that you use some other sources for the albanian lands. Because the whole balkan region comes out a bit unatural on this map, with that lighter colored gap in kosova and albania, while all surrounding areas are darker. I would imagine i worked more like a set of clines, with lowlanders being on average shorter, while highlanders like Hercegovinians, montenegrins and gheg albanians are taller on average.

These are just some suggestions. If you agree, and if you find the time, it would be great to see it get corrected somehow.

 

[Angela]

Kosovo average height for male population is 181! The mistake is 4 inches! Also Albanian average height for male population is 175 cm. How come Greeks are taller than Turks when they share identical gene pool? Stormfront map?

How absurd. Since when did Turks become 25% Slavic?

 

[Maciamo]

Kosovo average height for male population is 181! The mistake is 4 inches! Also Albanian average height for male population is 175 cm. How come Greeks are taller than Turks when they share identical gene pool? Stormfront map?

I admit that I used the data for Albania for Kosovo too. What are your sources for Kosovo?

I was surprised too that the Greeks are considerably taller than South Italians and Turks, but as Angela said modern Greeks have 25% of Slavic (and Germanic) DNA. In Northern Greece it's even over 40% and autosomal data shows the same thing. There are surely regional variations within Greece, but I couldn't find any regional data.

 

[Maciamo]

Numbers for northern albanians are not right.

Average height for Prishtina(northern albanians) is 179.52 cm.
And that is the number for urban populations. If you start measuring the mountaineers you will get an even higher number some places.

So for better accuracy i would suggest that you use some other sources for the albanian lands. Because the whole balkan region comes out a bit unatural on this map, with that lighter colored gap in kosova and albania, while all surrounding areas are darker. I would imagine i worked more like a set of clines, with lowlanders being on average shorter, while highlanders like Hercegovinians, montenegrins and gheg albanians are taller on average.

These are just some suggestions. If you agree, and if you find the time, it would be great to see it get corrected somehow.

What are your sources? The 174 cm comes from the extensive Albania Demographic and Health Survey (2008-9) which includes 649 samples aged 20-29.

 

[MOESAN]

I noticed that there was no good map covering all countries with serious data, so I made one.

This map was made based on the combined data from Wikipedia, Worlddata.info, a study by Grasgruber et al. (2016) (for the Middle East and North Africa), Diggita (for Italian regions) and Destatis (for German states). Other anthropological studies not published online were used for Dutch, French and Spanish regions.

This map is partly inaccurate, surely not by your proper fault - to be accurate,maps concerning statures have to made regionally (subregionally when possible, spite local differences tend to decrease) and comparing similar generations and - for some comparisons with past - separating OLD CITIZENS FROM MIGRANTS; when we come on Wiki and other sites which trie to be serious, we see almost NO corresponding statistics; no correspondance or periods, someones are made concerning a tme span of 5 years, other mixing the allover pop mean of a given year in place of the generation mean and so forth... So we find everytime discrepancy spite of great numbers of persons studied - very often, a good eyed tourist see better the statures means than "serious" statistics! a mesologic problem: pops statures evoluate with time not because of the time but of the economic-sanitary-lifestyle conditions, and these evolutions do'nt occur everywhere in the same proportions and in first place not in the same time. But a result is a result, may say one, whateverthe mesologic conditions; what I observed is that on a long enough span of time, old differences tend to be confirmed as a whole;
so here, without going into details, I would say Albanians were and are rather in the European mean or rather a bit higher (spite economical conditions always a bit worst), the Tosks being a bit shorter than the Greeks mean, but the Gheghs being higher, rather among the highest Europe group - Romanians a swa in Northwest are higher than French, it's sure; in the highlands they tended to be a bit higher than Greeks in older surveys; in plains I don't know for to date but in ancient times they were not too short - to me original British people are still higher than original French people - I stop here for the details -
that said this map seems a confirmation that the higher people in Europe are the Northern Germanics and the inhabitants of the Dinaric Alps, roughly said.
This post in not a critic because I know it's hard to can obtain comparable statistics from everyplace -
&: states for women would be interesting too, because they don't correlate completely in details with the men ones -

 

[Angela]

I don't know about Albania or Northeastern Europe because I've never been there, but I've been to almost all of western and southern Europe and in terms of relative height it seems right on.

Yes, there are some areas of the Appennini where people are much taller than the average for the particular provinces involved, i.e. Emilia, Toscana, Liguria etc., but this is about general averages. (My paternal grandmother was about 5'10, 5'11, and her father was much taller than she was, for example.)

 

[Zanatis]

What are your sources? The 174 cm comes from the extensive Albania Demographic and Health Survey (2008-9) which includes 649 samples aged 20-29.

This source is kind of useless for comparison to other countries in the case of Albania (or even Romania perhaps) since it practically shows the differences in mean height of different economic statuses. I'm digging into it and it says in 2008-09 19% of children are stunted, 11% severely stunted, 9% wasted, 6% severely wasted, 5% underweight for their, 2% severely underweight for their age, and it pinpoints the improvements made from 2000 to 2009.

Now the men measured here were from 20-29 years old, basically the generation born in the 80s (during communism), so you can imagine why many Albanians are surprised to see such low means. I guess we're used to living/visiting main cities and most of us are probably born in the 90s so it's strange for us to see means below 180cm, but the hard truth is that malnutrition is real and its effects are severe.

I believe most of us are more interested to see a study done on Albanians who are currently in their early 20s and living in Tirana/Prishtina or elsewhere in the world even better.

so here, without going into details, I would say Albanians were and are rather in the European mean or rather a bit higher (spite economical conditions always a bit worst), the Tosks being a bit shorter than the Greeks mean, but the Gheghs being higher, rather among the highest Europe group

Actually, as a Gheg myself (and from the tallest region), nowadays the difference between Tosks and Ghegs is exaggerated and most people have gotten this idea from old anthropological books.

In reality during the 50 years of communism Tosks had considerably better nutrition and were far more urbanized than Ghegs, giving them a "boost" when compared to Ghegs. For instance in the health survey the authors noted that the female average was 160-161cm, but in Tirana it was 165cm and keep in mind that until the 90s Tirana had far more Tosks than Ghegs, and most of these Ghegs weren't actually North Albanians but central Albanians.

 

[Ernekar]

What are your sources? The 174 cm comes from the extensive Albania Demographic and Health Survey (2008-9) which includes 649 samples aged 20-29.

My number comes from a 2017 national survey in Kosova with 830 men.

This is the name of the survey: "Stature and its Estimation Utilizing Arm SpanMeasurements in Kosovan Adults: National Survey"

SUMMARY: The purpose of this research is to examine stature in both Kosovan sexes as well as its association with arm span,as an alternative to estimating stature. A total of 1623 individuals (830 boys and 793 girls) participated in this research. The anthropometricmeasurements were taken according to the protocol of ISAK. The relationships between stature and arm span were determined usingsimple correlation coefficients at a ninety-five percent confidence interval. Then a linear regression analysis was carried out to examineextent to which arm span can reliably predict stature. Results displayed that Kosovan boys are 179.52±5.96 cm tall and have an arm spanof 181.29±7.02 cm, while Kosovan girls are 165.72±4.93 cm tall and have an arm span of 165.60±5.87 cm. The results have shown thatboth sexes made Kosovans a tall nation but not even close to be in the top tallest nations. Moreover, the arm span reliably predicts staturein both sexes

 

[MOESAN]

what signifies this '+ or - 5,96' ?!? is this a reliable mean or the generalized result of a calculation based on arm span after a smaller sample empirical controle??? BTW, what age(s)?
&: at the average level, in a pop we can guess stature based on arm span or the contrary - not in individuals!
and the ratio can vary from region to region of Europe -

 

[Eldritch]

My number comes from a 2017 national survey in Kosova with 830 men.

This is the name of the survey: "Stature and its Estimation Utilizing Arm SpanMeasurements in Kosovan Adults: National Survey"

SUMMARY: The purpose of this research is to examine stature in both Kosovan sexes as well as its association with arm span,as an alternative to estimating stature. A total of 1623 individuals (830 boys and 793 girls) participated in this research. The anthropometricmeasurements were taken according to the protocol of ISAK. The relationships between stature and arm span were determined usingsimple correlation coefficients at a ninety-five percent confidence interval. Then a linear regression analysis was carried out to examineextent to which arm span can reliably predict stature. Results displayed that Kosovan boys are 179.52±5.96 cm tall and have an arm spanof 181.29±7.02 cm, while Kosovan girls are 165.72±4.93 cm tall and have an arm span of 165.60±5.87 cm. The results have shown thatboth sexes made Kosovans a tall nation but not even close to be in the top tallest nations. Moreover, the arm span reliably predicts staturein both sexes

Most Kosovars in Finland are tall, i would say their average is not different than Finnish, at least the ones i saw here.

 

[Maciamo]

Thank you all for your feedback. I will modify Albania and Kosovo.

 

[MOESAN]

Confirm Kosovars are very tall too, maybe a bit taller than Finns of West Finland -
Frenchies "de souche" are among the shortest Europeans as a whole, but with regional differences (fading out slowly)
Bretons of the Center are very small, due I think to some ancient input of pre-Neolithic pre-Metals Ages 'teviecoids' (small HG's), whose traits are still visible in the population (usefulness of taxinomy, sometimes) - nothing to do with socio-economal condition

 

[Boreas]

The main problem about Turkey, Turkish source are not detailed as Germany-France-Spain. There is no regional difference. There are 15 millon Kurds (according to some nationalist Kurdish source, it is upto 25 millons), 1 millon ethnic Arabs (not the immigrants) live in Turkey.

According to 2009 research, Male Height

The Tallest
181cm - İzmir (3rd biggest city)
180cm - Bursa (4th biggest city)
179cm - Balıkesir
178,5cm - Antalya(5th biggest city)
178cm - Denizli

and the shortest are from East Blacksea

Talls are Blue, shorts are red.

Is there any statistic about Pontic Greeks? Are they below the averange?
It is weird. Neighbour Georgia is taller but Turkish Pontus is shortest in Turkey.

About Greek and Slav? Didn't we say that, current Greeks don't have that much Slavic influence as the old theories said.

 

[Maciamo]

The main problem about Turkey, Turkish source are not detailed as Germany-France-Spain. There is no regional difference. There are 15 millon Kurds (according to some nationalist Kurdish source, it is upto 25 millons), 1 millon ethnic Arabs (not the immigrants) live in Turkey.

According to 2009 research, Male Height

The Tallest
181cm - İzmir (3rd biggest city)
180cm - Bursa (4th biggest city)
179cm - Balıkesir
178,5cm - Antalya(5th biggest city)
178cm - Denizli

and the shortest are from East Blacksea

View attachment 10068
Talls are Blue, shorts are red.

Is there any statistic about Pontic Greeks? Are they below the averange?
It is weird. Neighbour Georgia is taller but Turkish Pontus is shortest in Turkey.

About Greek and Slav? Didn't we say that, current Greeks don't have that much Slavic influence as the old theories said.

Thanks. I would like to update the map based on the regional differences in Turkey. Do you have the complete data from this study?

 

[Boreas]

It is in Turkish and they took 25 province, 66.000 male

View attachment 10073
This is the most clear one. I couldn't find larger version

 

[paul333]

Regarding Height,

I can only speak from my own experiences, But I live in the North East of England, previously a heavy industrialised area, with many coal mine's etc now gone. The area I live was surrounded by deep coal mining, and Strangley the majority of the coal miners were of a similar height, obviously you would see the odd differing heights but the majority were on average classed as quite small, and stocky, ie the average height of male miners were around the 5ft 7" inches. ( 1.70 cm ), not many over 5ft 8 inches, (1.72 cm ), this was the average pre-second world war .

( even Police officers from other area' forces of the Uk would make fun of the smaller height of the miners they were confronting on the picket lines,of County Durham,and Northumberland, etc during the year long miners strike of 1984 )

Since the second world war, these mining industries were closed, most after the miners strike of 1984. Since that time, ie 1980s many male children born to these same families were now being born significantly taller, often reaching 6ft ( 1.82 cm )and over . This significant change to increased height became common in the same families that had many generations of male underground mine workers, with the average heights as stated the norm.

These changes have to be connected to a change of enviroment, nurishment and a increase in food supply and diet choice, since the second world war/colliery closures. I believe in what I see, as my own family and cousins see the same changes, and as a result I have to question any genetic reasoning, as a sole cause.

 

[Angela]

Regarding Height,

I can only speak from my own experiences, But I live in the North East of England, previously a heavy industrialised area, with many coal mine's etc now gone. The area I live was surrounded by deep coal mining, and Strangley the majority of the coal miners were of a similar height, obviously you would see the odd differing heights but the majority were on average classed as quite small, and stocky, ie the average height of male miners were around the 5ft 7" inches. ( 1.70 cm ), not many over 5ft 8 inches, (1.72 cm ), this was the average pre-second world war .

( even Police officers from other area' forces of the Uk would make fun of the smaller height of the miners they were confronting on the picket lines,of County Durham,and Northumberland, etc during the year long miners strike of 1984 )

Since the second world war, these mining industries were closed, most after the miners strike of 1984. Since that time, ie 1980s many male children born to these same families were now being born significantly taller, often reaching 6ft ( 1.82 cm )and over . This significant change to increased height became common in the same families that had many generations of male underground mine workers, with the average heights as stated the norm.

These changes have to be connected to a change of enviroment, nurishment and a increase in food supply and diet choice, since the second world war/colliery closures. I believe in what I see, as my own family and cousins see the same changes, and as a result I have to question any genetic reasoning, as a sole cause.

I think you're right about that, Paul, but I don't think it necessarily only applies to people from that specific area of Britain, either. Close to where I moved in the U.S. there is a Revolutionary War fort. You can tour the sleeping quarters, see the beds, and they have cases of displays of their actual uniforms. It made quite an impression on me that virtually all of them were about my height, and I'm 5'6" tall.

It wasn't that different even by the time of the Civil War. Abraham Lincoln at 6'4" was considered a freakish giant who was constantly made fun of for his height.

I think it's a combination of genes and environment, which includes diet.

Part of the reason why modern people are so tall nowadays, and even come to puberty earlier in the case of women, is because of so much dairy consumption, the milk of which often contains hormones. The overeating of protein is also involved.

 

[Maciamo]

Regarding Height,

I can only speak from my own experiences, But I live in the North East of England, previously a heavy industrialised area, with many coal mine's etc now gone. The area I live was surrounded by deep coal mining, and Strangley the majority of the coal miners were of a similar height, obviously you would see the odd differing heights but the majority were on average classed as quite small, and stocky, ie the average height of male miners were around the 5ft 7" inches. ( 1.70 cm ), not many over 5ft 8 inches, (1.72 cm ), this was the average pre-second world war .

( even Police officers from other area' forces of the Uk would make fun of the smaller height of the miners they were confronting on the picket lines,of County Durham,and Northumberland, etc during the year long miners strike of 1984 )

Since the second world war, these mining industries were closed, most after the miners strike of 1984. Since that time, ie 1980s many male children born to these same families were now being born significantly taller, often reaching 6ft ( 1.82 cm )and over . This significant change to increased height became common in the same families that had many generations of male underground mine workers, with the average heights as stated the norm.

These changes have to be connected to a change of enviroment, nurishment and a increase in food supply and diet choice, since the second world war/colliery closures. I believe in what I see, as my own family and cousins see the same changes, and as a result I have to question any genetic reasoning, as a sole cause.

In developed countries in most families every generation has been getting taller over the last 60 years or so due to richer diet and to a lesser extent also better health care (some diseases can stunt growth if left untreated or not properly treated). That doesn't mean that height isn't mostly genetic. Huge differences still exist between individuals even in the same environment with similar diets, and that is ultimately because of DNA. That's how it's possible to tell that 60% to 80% of body height variations are down to genetics rather than diet or the environment.