New map of Slavic Y-DNA

[hrvat22]

I made this map by adding paternal lineages associated with the diffusion Slavic peoples from the Iron Age onwards. These include Y-DNA haplogroups I2a1b-CTS10228, R1a-CTS1211, R1a-Z92 and some branches R1a-M458.

The Slavic Y-DNA in Italy, southern France and northern Spain came with the Goths, who had assimilated a lot of (Proto-)Slavic people in Poland and Ukraine before moving into the Roman Empire. Interestingly these Slavs appear to have been almost exclusively R1a-CTS1211 (Y2902 and Y3301 clades), in sharp contrast to the later South Slavs who settled in the Dinaric Alps and Balkans and possessed high percentages of I2a1b-CTS10228 (in addition to R1a-CTS1211).

Some deep clades of E-V13, G2a, J2b2a and R1b-Z2103 may also be of Slavic origin, but as they have not yet been identified and no regional data is available, these were not been included. They might account for an extra 5 to 10% of Y-chomosomal lineages in Slavic countries. Within core Slavic countries like Western Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Poland, the remainder of the Y-DNA is mostly Uralic, Germanic, Iranian (Scythian) with also some Celtic in Poland, Czechia and Slovakia.

This map hints that Slavic migrations could have reached deep into the Byzantine Empire, across Anatolia and northern Mesopotamia, and not just in Southeast Europe. However I think that it may be in part to later redistribution of population within the Byzantine and Ottoman Empires. People move, intermarry, and genes flow, especially within a same country. 1500 years is a long time and such drift may be responsible for Slavic Y-DNA in places like northern Mesopotamia. However it is undeniable that there is Slavic autosomal DNA in Turkey itself - more even than in Greece or Albania according to 23andMe's Ancestry Composition.

Y-DNA frequencies do not always correspond to genome-wide ancestry. That is especially true for South Slavs, most of all in the Dinaric Alps, where according to 23andMe East European ancestry (more broadly Balto-Slavic) is generally only 10 to 20%, a far cry from the 72% of Slavic Y-DNA among Bosniaks.

For now only genetic research suggests that Croats of Bosnia and Herzegovina has 83% of Slavic I2a1b and R1a branches.

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/22Kangars/BesenyoGeneticsEn.htm

Some I2a1b and R1a branches can be and Vlach origin, not original but assimilated.

For now do not exist younger subclades so we can not reconstruct local migration, but in the future we will know it and then we'll be more accurate. Because we do not know whether branch I-S17250 in Croatian Serbs come from Greece with Vlachs, from Serbia with Slavic Serbians or is it local Croatian. Roughly I2a1b I-S17250 is Slavic (White Croatian) but later descendant mutations become Greek, Bulgarian, Albanian, Macedonian, Vlach, Aromanian.

 

[Maciamo]

I2a1b is not Slavic but younger branches especially branch https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/ is Slavic or more precisely White Croatian branch.

For now source of I-S17250 is in south-eastern Poland and south-western Ukraine.

I don't see why you only consider this branch with a TMRCA of 1850 years. Do you seriously think it's possible that a single man who live shortly before the Slavic migrations was the ancestor of all Slavic I2a1b people? Slavic ethnogenesis is older than that - at least 3000 years ago.

 

[hrvat22]

I don't see why you only consider this branch with a TMRCA of 1850 years. Do you seriously think it's possible that a single man who live shortly before the Slavic migrations was the ancestor of all Slavic I2a1b people? Slavic ethnogenesis is older than that - at least 3000 years ago.

It is the only subclade or branch that can be linked to White Croats((there are probably other ones from that period)),.. all previously mutations belong to ancestors of White Croatians but who knows all the names which they had then. Older mutations in fact have nothing to do with tribe of White Croatians becouse White Croatians are formed by mixing I2a1b and R1a subclades in southern Poland before 2000 years, meaning that only those branches age 2000 years to the present time have something to do with Croats.

When R1a comes to Poland and gets mixed with I2a1b then we can talk about Slavic I2a1b subclades, but I'm talking about White Croatian Slavs. You probably know when R1a comes to Poland? And from that time we can talk about the Slavs but I do not know exactly time of mixing R1a and I2a1b in Poland.

 

[gyms]

I2a1b is not Slavic but younger branches especially branch https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/ is Slavic or more precisely White Croatian branch.

For now source of I-S17250 is in south-eastern Poland and south-western Ukraine.

You may fabricate hundreds of hypothesis,the only convincing argument would be Slavic aDNA.

 

[I1a3_Young]

The I1-Z63 in Croatia, Bosnia/Herz, and Serbia is also at a strangely high frequency.

In fact certain branches of Z63 are spread almost only in Slavic areas (Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, Russia). It could be that some or much of the Z63 in the balkans was moved in with the Slavization and supplemented by the Gothic migrations.

The Slavization of the Balkans was before the historical Germanic migrations, right?

 

[Ownstyler]

I am not sure I understand your question. This map is based on the modern distribution of Y-DNA. Obviously the map would have looked very different in ancient times before the Slavic migrations.

What I meant is how did you determine which subclades are Slavic? Did you look at current distributions, frequencies, subclade ages and TMRCA? Or did you also use medieval or ancient DNA from areas where Slavs might have lived?

 

[Ownstyler]

The I1-Z63 in Croatia, Bosnia/Herz, and Serbia is also at a strangely high frequency.

In fact certain branches of Z63 are spread almost only in Slavic areas (Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, Russia). It could be that some or much of the Z63 in the balkans was moved in with the Slavization and supplemented by the Gothic migrations.

The Slavization of the Balkans was before the historical Germanic migrations, right?

German migrations preceded the Slavic one. In fact, it is often said most of the Slavs moved into the areas the Germanic tribes left open.

 

[I1a3_Young]

German migrations preceded the Slavic one. In fact, it is often said most of the Slavs moved into the areas the Germanic tribes left open.

Yeah, and the more I look like it the more it looks like it was moved simply by Germanic expansion then wandering during the great migrations. Coincidence that the hotspots in the Balkans are the I2a-DIN hotspots.

 

[Ownstyler]

Yeah, and the more I look like it the more it looks like it was moved simply by Germanic expansion then wandering during the great migrations. Coincidence that the hotspots in the Balkans are the I2a-DIN hotspots.

If it was Germanic how do you explain the complete absence in Western Europe, Italy and its islands, even North Africa?

 

[Ygorcs]

This map hints that Slavic migrations could have reached deep into the Byzantine Empire, across Anatolia and northern Mesopotamia, and not just in Southeast Europe. However I think that it may be in part to later redistribution of population within the Byzantine and Ottoman Empires. People move, intermarry, and genes flow, especially within a same country. 1500 years is a long time and such drift may be responsible for Slavic Y-DNA in places like northern Mesopotamia. However it is undeniable that there is Slavic autosomal DNA in Turkey itself - more even than in Greece or Albania according to 23andMe's Ancestry Composition.

Couldn't some Turkic as well as Circassian populations (heavily present in Turkey after their virtual expulsion and ethnic cleansing in 19th century Russia) have picked up some Slavic-associated - but not necessarily and effectively Slavic-speaking - Y-DNA haplogroups in Eastern/Northeastern Europe? All the former (and in recent times, as far as the 17th century AD) Turkic-majority lands of southern Ukraine and Russia in the map are showed with a very heavy Slavic Y-DNA proportion, yet I assume there wasn't total genetic replacement there after the Late Medieval/Modern Era East Slavic expansion.

So isn't it possible that some of the (Crimean and Volga, especially the former) Tatars, Circassians and other non-Slavic Eastern Europens, who had close contacts with Anatolia/Turkey, also contributed at least to part of that surprisingly higher autosomal (higher than in Greece) and Y-DNA ancestries?

 

[Ygorcs]

You may fabricate hundreds of hypothesis,the only convincing argument would be Slavic aDNA.

How on earth could you prove that a certain Y-DNA haplogroup is associated with the Slavic expansion by looking at Slavic AUTOSOMAL DNA? You know that Y-DNA does not necessarily correlate with autosomal ancestry nor vice-versa, right? Also, AFAIK Maciamo associates just a specific subclade, I2a1b-CTS10228, with Slavs. Also, bear in mind that "being associated" is not a synyonym to "is owned by Slavs" nor to "is found exclusively in Slavs". It just means that people who spread the Slavic language and culture probably harbored a lot of that haplogroup, nothing else. People have always been absorbed by other cultures/languages/ethnic identities or shifted their own for many reasons, so there will always be at best a correlation, not a compulsory, absolutely certain relation between genetics and culture/language.

P.S.: I see, you meant ancient DNA, though you used a terminology most used to refer to autosomal DNA (aDNA). Well, that would definitely settle the question once and for all, not just "be convincing". However, I definitely think we can look at the estimated age of spread of a certain specific clade of a haplogroup and its pattern of distribution, expansion and points of gradual dilution and make reasonable hypotheses. Nobody here pretends that these are fully fact-proven theories, but as far as hypotheses go Maciamo's are often pretty plausible and well substantiated.

 

[Milan.M]

Couldn't some Turkic as well as Circassian populations (heavily present in Turkey after their virtual expulsion and ethnic cleansing in 19th century Russia) have picked up some Slavic-associated - but not necessarily and effectively Slavic-speaking - Y-DNA haplogroups in Eastern/Northeastern Europe? All the former (and in recent times, as far as the 17th century AD) Turkic-majority lands of southern Ukraine and Russia in the map are showed with a very heavy Slavic Y-DNA proportion, yet I assume there wasn't total genetic replacement there after the Late Medieval/Modern Era East Slavic expansion.

So isn't it possible that some of the (Crimean and Volga, especially the former) Tatars, Circassians and other non-Slavic Eastern Europens, who had close contacts with Anatolia/Turkey, also contributed at least to part of that surprisingly higher autosomal (higher than in Greece) and Y-DNA ancestries?

You dont really need to look in Circassian or Tatar population for Slavic Y-DNA or aDNA.To start from beginning, there was Slavic resettlement from Balkans by Byzantines in Asia minor,some of whom switched sides to the Arabs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_Minor_Slavs

Then there was Ottoman empire,where many "Slavs" in this case South-Slavs served as soldiers in the Janissaries,many of them reached to "grand vizier" title,that is the second man in the empire after the Sultan.After the Ottoman dissolution in the Balkans many Slavic speaking Muslims emigrated to Asia Minor,they are today Turks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhacir
Muhacir, Macırlar, or Muhajir, is a term used to refer to an estimated 10 million Ottoman Muslim citizens, and their descendants born after the onset of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, (including Turks, Albanians, Bosniaks, Greek Muslims, Circassians, Crimean Tatars, and Pomaks(Slavic speaking Muslims mostly from Bulgaria) who emigrated to Anatolia from the late 18th century until the end of the 20th century, mainly to escape ongoing persecution in their homelands. Today, between a third and a quarter of Turkey's population are the descendants of these Muhacirs.

Then you have the slave trade mostly of Slavs in middle ages continuing in the Ottoman period.
Also you might check Crimean-Nogai raids into east Slavic lands,their main purpose was capture of slaves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean–Nogai_raids_into_East_Slavic_lands
One of the most famous wifes of the Sultan Suleiman and perhaps the most influental woman in Ottoman history,Hurrem Sultan or Roxelana was of "Ukrainian" descent,she was captured as slave.

 

[Maciamo]

Couldn't some Turkic as well as Circassian populations (heavily present in Turkey after their virtual expulsion and ethnic cleansing in 19th century Russia) have picked up some Slavic-associated - but not necessarily and effectively Slavic-speaking - Y-DNA haplogroups in Eastern/Northeastern Europe? All the former (and in recent times, as far as the 17th century AD) Turkic-majority lands of southern Ukraine and Russia in the map are showed with a very heavy Slavic Y-DNA proportion, yet I assume there wasn't total genetic replacement there after the Late Medieval/Modern Era East Slavic expansion.

So isn't it possible that some of the (Crimean and Volga, especially the former) Tatars, Circassians and other non-Slavic Eastern Europens, who had close contacts with Anatolia/Turkey, also contributed at least to part of that surprisingly higher autosomal (higher than in Greece) and Y-DNA ancestries?

It's possible but rather far-fetched since Turkey has a mixture of I2-CTS10228 and R1a-CTS1211, with slightly more of the former like in the Balkans. I don't think that there is much of either in Central Asia if we exclude recent Russian and Ukrainian settlements from the USSR era. Most of the R1a in Central Asia is Z93. Even in the Volga-Ural region the Tatars (who are Turkic) have hardly any Slavic Y-DNA, unlike their Uralic neighbours (Mordvins, Mari, Udmurts).

 

[Maciamo]

The I1-Z63 in Croatia, Bosnia/Herz, and Serbia is also at a strangely high frequency.

In fact certain branches of Z63 are spread almost only in Slavic areas (Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, Russia). It could be that some or much of the Z63 in the balkans was moved in with the Slavization and supplemented by the Gothic migrations.

The Slavization of the Balkans was before the historical Germanic migrations, right?

It is not the whole of I1-Z63 that is found in the Balkans and Ukraine, but mostly the BY351 and S2078 branches, which are also found in Germany, Poland, Switzerland, Italy and Iberia. That follows perfectly the migration of the Goths.

 

[I1a3_Young]

It is not the whole of I1-Z63 that is found in the Balkans and Ukraine, but mostly the BY351 and S2078 branches, which are also found in Germany, Poland, Switzerland, Italy and Iberia. That follows perfectly the migration of the Goths.

S2078 is everywhere - too general to define by any group. There are some clear Gothic branches though like in the attached image. Other than using Yfull and FTDNA I have not seen good breakdowns of I1 subclade distributions by area.

So the Goths left a good contingent behind in Slavic destined areas. The rates according to public FTDNA groups of Z63 in these areas is high.

Sorry to digress

 

[gyms]

How on earth could you prove that a certain Y-DNA haplogroup is associated with the Slavic expansion by looking at Slavic AUTOSOMAL DNA? You know that Y-DNA does not necessarily correlate with autosomal ancestry nor vice-versa, right? Also, AFAIK Maciamo associates just a specific subclade, I2a1b-CTS10228, with Slavs. Also, bear in mind that "being associated" is not a synyonym to "is owned by Slavs" nor to "is found exclusively in Slavs". It just means that people who spread the Slavic language and culture probably harbored a lot of that haplogroup, nothing else. People have always been absorbed by other cultures/languages/ethnic identities or shifted their own for many reasons, so there will always be at best a correlation, not a compulsory, absolutely certain relation between genetics and culture/language.

P.S.: I see, you meant ancient DNA, though you used a terminology most used to refer to autosomal DNA (aDNA). Well, that would definitely settle the question once and for all, not just "be convincing". However, I definitely think we can look at the estimated age of spread of a certain specific clade of a haplogroup and its pattern of distribution, expansion and points of gradual dilution and make reasonable hypotheses. Nobody here pretends that these are fully fact-proven theories, but as far as hypotheses go Maciamo's are often pretty plausible and well substantiated.

BTW: The Germans are in the same sub cluster as the Serbs, Moldavians, Hungarians, Croatians, Czechs and Ukrainians [1]. This closeness may be explained by the common origin of the ethnos enumerated and their migration from the first place of differentiation in Asia to Europe by a route other than the ancestors of the Russians who went to Europe via north Siberia. The ancestors of the Germans, and also the current central- European Slavic ethnos, migrated to Europe from Asia roughly following the same route that the Hun’s took earlier.
https://www.omicsonline.org/open-ac...enetical-data-2332-2543.1000118.php?aid=22649

 

[Crya]

I doubt that the tall body height of Dinaric people come from the Slavs. It was probably inherited from the ancient population. It could also have arisen from the blend of various complementary alleles for height from both Illyrian and Slavic populations.

As far as i know the height is increasing towards highest concentration of I2a? By the "ancient population" do you mean before coming to Balkan?

 

[Yaan]

Great Job Maciamo it sounds really OK and truthful! Respect

 

[Tomenable]

Wait, isn't R1a-Z92 a mostly Baltic clade of R1a, rather than Slavic? Also when it comes to R1a-CTS1211 (M558), much of it seems to be Baltic, while only R1a-CTS3402 and R1a-YP343 appear distinctly Slavic. It also seems to me that all 3 main subclades of R1a-M458 - L260, YP515 and L1029 - are Slavic, but this question will be resolved by ancient DNA:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/35817-Age-and-TMRCA-of-common-Slavic-Y-DNA-lineages

Nevertheless, it is a very interesting map. Which areas have over 70% of Slavic Y-DNA?

 

[Ygorcs]

You dont really need to look in Circassian or Tatar population for Slavic Y-DNA or aDNA.To start from beginning, there was Slavic resettlement from Balkans by Byzantines in Asia minor,some of whom switched sides to the Arabs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_Minor_Slavs

Then there was Ottoman empire,where many "Slavs" in this case South-Slavs served as soldiers in the Janissaries,many of them reached to "grand vizier" title,that is the second man in the empire after the Sultan.After the Ottoman dissolution in the Balkans many Slavic speaking Muslims emigrated to Asia Minor,they are today Turks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhacir
Muhacir, Macırlar, or Muhajir, is a term used to refer to an estimated 10 million Ottoman Muslim citizens, and their descendants born after the onset of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, (including Turks, Albanians, Bosniaks, Greek Muslims, Circassians, Crimean Tatars, and Pomaks(Slavic speaking Muslims mostly from Bulgaria) who emigrated to Anatolia from the late 18th century until the end of the 20th century, mainly to escape ongoing persecution in their homelands. Today, between a third and a quarter of Turkey's population are the descendants of these Muhacirs.

Then you have the slave trade mostly of Slavs in middle ages continuing in the Ottoman period.
Also you might check Crimean-Nogai raids into east Slavic lands,their main purpose was capture of slaves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean–Nogai_raids_into_East_Slavic_lands
One of the most famous wifes of the Sultan Suleiman and perhaps the most influental woman in Ottoman history,Hurrem Sultan or Roxelana was of "Ukrainian" descent,she was captured as slave.

Excellent points, but I didn't mean that there wasn't Slavic proper settlement in Anatolia, but rather that it may have been compounded by Slavic-related Turkified or "Caucasianized" populations that came since the Middle Ages from the steppes north of the Black Sea and Caucasus, including the Crimean Tatars who also enslaved so many East Slavs and were themselves in close contact with the Ottomans for many centuries. My point would just be an additional factor to explain why Turkey seems to have even more Slavic-related impact than Greece and Albania in the Balkans itself, directly neighboring Slavic-speaking populations (although it seems like those, Bulgarians and FYROM Macedonians, are among the least "genetically Slavic" but still Slavic-peaking populations).