New map of Slavic Y-DNA

[Tomenable]

I doubt that the tall body height of Dinaric people come from the Slavs.

The invading Slavs were described by Byzantine sources as very tall.

But all northern barbarians were seen as tall by Greeks and Romans.

 

[Maciamo]

S2078 is everywhere - too general to define by any group. There are some clear Gothic branches though like in the attached image. Other than using Yfull and FTDNA I have not seen good breakdowns of I1 subclade distributions by area.
View attachment 10062

So the Goths left a good contingent behind in Slavic destined areas. The rates according to public FTDNA groups of Z63 in these areas is high.

Sorry to digress

Apart from the samples from Belgium (same clade as the Spanish one, so possibly a descendant of a Spanish nobleman during the Habsburg rule) and Tatarstan, all the countries listed are where the Goths settled. The Tatar sample could be an offshoot of the Goths who stayed in Ukraine. I suggested three years ago that one contingent of Goths migrated to the Volga-Ural region and contributed ancestry to the Mordovians, Chuvash and Tatars. I am found nothing that could contradict this hypothesis so far. Actually I have surely underestimated the overall Gothic ancestry in the Volga-Ural as I did not know at the time that E-V13, G2a and J2b2 could very well be Slavic or Germanic lineages. Therefore the Mordovians could have up to 70% of Gothic Y-DNA (Slavo-Germanic + some assimilated Carpathian lineages).

 

[Maciamo]

The invading Slavs were described by Byzantine sources as very tall.

But all northern barbarians were seen as tall by Greeks and Romans.

Yes, all Northern Europeans were seen as tall by the Greeks and Romans, even the Gauls. Modern Italians (esp. in the North) and Greeks are considerably taller than ancient Romans and Greeks would have been, in part due to the influx of Germanic and Slavic people during the Late Antiquity.

 

[Maciamo]

Wait, isn't R1a-Z92 a mostly Baltic clade of R1a, rather than Slavic? Also when it comes to R1a-CTS1211 (M558), much of it seems to be Baltic, while only R1a-CTS3402 and R1a-YP343 appear distinctly Slavic. It also seems to me that all 3 main subclades of R1a-M458 - L260, YP515 and L1029 - are Slavic, but this question will be resolved by ancient DNA:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/35817-Age-and-TMRCA-of-common-Slavic-Y-DNA-lineages

Nevertheless, it is a very interesting map. Which areas have over 70% of Slavic Y-DNA?

I deducted the clearly Baltic R1a lineages from Baltic countries, otherwise the percentage would be between 40 and 50% for Latvia and Lithuania. It is 10-15% on the map, but even that might be an overestimate as it's sometimes hard to tell Baltic from Slavic R1a apart from one another.

The map is approximative at the regional level, especially in Poland, Belarus, Russia and Ukraine as regional data is still scarce. But Slavic Y-DNA appears to be over 70% among Bosniaks (71%) and Bosnian Croats (83%), eastern Poland (Masovia, Lesser Poland, Red Ruthenia) central Belorussians and in the Smolesnk region of Russia. Let me know if you have more accurate regional data.

 

[hrvat22]

Apart from the samples from Belgium (same clade as the Spanish one, so possibly a descendant of a Spanish nobleman during the Habsburg rule) and Tatarstan, all the countries listed are where the Goths settled. The Tatar sample could be an offshoot of the Goths who stayed in Ukraine. I suggested three years ago that one contingent of Goths migrated to the Volga-Ural region and contributed ancestry to the Mordovians, Chuvash and Tatars. I am found nothing that could contradict this hypothesis so far. Actually I have surely underestimated the overall Gothic ancestry in the Volga-Ural as I did not know at the time that E-V13, G2a and J2b2 could very well be Slavic or Germanic lineages. Therefore the Mordovians could have up to 70% of Gothic Y-DNA (Slavo-Germanic + some assimilated Carpathian lineages).

Which branch of E-V13 you mean? For now only branch PH1246, L540 and S7461 does not exist in Albanians (or a minimum)

http://www.gjenetika.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/E1b-V13new.jpg

Polish branches of E-V13

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/polish?iframe=ymap

Vlachs migrated all the way to Poland and over Carpathians, for now more branches of E-V13 exist in Slavic countries but we do not know if they come from the Balkans or are indigenous there.

In the Diploma Andreanum issued by King Andrew II of Hungary in 1224, "silva blacorum et bissenorum" was given to the settlers. The Orthodox Vlachs spread further northward along the Carpathians to Poland, Slovakia, and Moravia and were granted autonomy under Ius Vlachonicum (Walachian law).^[

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs

 

[Ygorcs]

It's possible but rather far-fetched since Turkey has a mixture of I2-CTS10228 and R1a-CTS1211, with slightly more of the former like in the Balkans. I don't think that there is much of either in Central Asia if we exclude recent Russian and Ukrainian settlements from the USSR era. Most of the R1a in Central Asia is Z93. Even in the Volga-Ural region the Tatars (who are Turkic) have hardly any Slavic Y-DNA, unlike their Uralic neighbours (Mordvins, Mari, Udmurts).

I meant not the Central Asians, but the Turkified populations of the Pontic-Caspian steppe or originally coming from there, like Crimean Tatars and, before them, Khazars, Bulgars and Cumans/Kipchaks, just south of the purported Slavic homeland, probably arund North Ukraine/South Belarus, bordering on Southern Poland and Western Russia.

 

[td120]

It really depends on the calculator or testing company's admixture that one is using. It seems that the 23andMe's East European is more centred on Baltic countries and may underestimate East European ancestry in Southeast Europe.

Maciamo,what are the calculations of "genome-wide"ancestry based on? If it is 23andme only,then the above conclusion of yours is right...What are the numbers for Serbia,Bulgaria and FYROM on the heatmap? 5-10...or 10-20% ? Seem somehow low...

 

[Milan.M]

Excellent points, but I didn't mean that there wasn't Slavic proper settlement in Anatolia, but rather that it may have been compounded by Slavic-related Turkified or "Caucasianized" populations that came since the Middle Ages from the steppes north of the Black Sea and Caucasus, including the Crimean Tatars who also enslaved so many East Slavs and were themselves in close contact with the Ottomans for many centuries. My point would just be an additional factor to explain why Turkey seems to have even more Slavic-related impact than Greece and Albania in the Balkans itself, directly neighboring Slavic-speaking populations (although it seems like those, Bulgarians and FYROM Macedonians, are among the least "genetically Slavic" but still Slavic-peaking populations).

It think that the more "northern" or north Slavic affinity of Anatolia than Greece or Albania,one of the main reason will be the slave trade of northern Slavs into Ottoman empire,if you have the time to read this you can see how many slaves were sold from those lands.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean–Nogai_raids_into_East_Slavic_lands



Also i think that the Slavs that conquered the Balkans were not that much "northern" shifted even in the middle ages,that is of course my personal view.

 

[I1a3_Young]

Apart from the samples from Belgium (same clade as the Spanish one, so possibly a descendant of a Spanish nobleman during the Habsburg rule) and Tatarstan, all the countries listed are where the Goths settled. The Tatar sample could be an offshoot of the Goths who stayed in Ukraine. I suggested three years ago that one contingent of Goths migrated to the Volga-Ural region and contributed ancestry to the Mordovians, Chuvash and Tatars. I am found nothing that could contradict this hypothesis so far. Actually I have surely underestimated the overall Gothic ancestry in the Volga-Ural as I did not know at the time that E-V13, G2a and J2b2 could very well be Slavic or Germanic lineages. Therefore the Mordovians could have up to 70% of Gothic Y-DNA (Slavo-Germanic + some assimilated Carpathian lineages).

Excellent insight. As for any clade with a "*", those could be completely divergent from the time of mutation. I hope to join YFull and the Z63 project there soon, if FTDNA would ever process my BigY (5 month wait now).

 

[hrvat22]

I deducted the clearly Baltic R1a lineages from Baltic countries, otherwise the percentage would be between 40 and 50% for Latvia and Lithuania. It is 10-15% on the map, but even that might be an overestimate as it's sometimes hard to tell Baltic from Slavic R1a apart from one another.

The map is approximative at the regional level, especially in Poland, Belarus, Russia and Ukraine as regional data is still scarce. But Slavic Y-DNA appears to be over 70% among Bosniaks (71%) and Bosnian Croats (83%), eastern Poland (Masovia, Lesser Poland, Red Ruthenia) central Belorussians and in the Smolesnk region of Russia. Let me know if you have more accurate regional data.

This is not so important but only research for the Bosniaks from Bosnia shows 58% of R1a+I2a.

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/22Kangars/BesenyoGeneticsEn.htm


There is another research for the Bosniaks but I think that is only for one city (Tuzla)

That's what I know from official research.

 

[Ygorcs]

It think that the more "northern" or north Slavic affinity of Anatolia than Greece or Albania,one of the main reason will be the slave trade of northern Slavs into Ottoman empire,if you have the time to read this you can see how many slaves were sold from those lands.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean–Nogai_raids_into_East_Slavic_lands



Also i think that the Slavs that conquered the Balkans were not that much "northern" shifted even in the middle ages,that is of course my personal view.

Yes, you're right, that definitely makes perfect sense autosomally. This hypothesis would fit the observation that, in a Greece vs. Turkey comparison, there is a higher than expected level in Turkey only for the autosomal ancestry, and not nearly as much for the presence of Slavic-related Y-DNA haplogroups, too. It is notorious (and infamous) that male slaves tended to become eunuchs or be severely disencouraged, in all ways, to have even a modicum of reproductive chances, and the usual pattern, especially in the Middle East due to the specificities of its slavery system, is a much higher slave-derived Mt-DNA than Y-DNA impact, with the autosomal impact in between and mostly deriving from maternal contribution. Has anyone already analyzed the fine-scaled Mt-DNA makeup of modern Turkish (especially Northwestern Turkish) people to see if there is a higher Slavic-related % of Mt-DNA than Y-DNA? That would reinforce that slavery was a huge factor in this increased affinity with Eastern Europeans.

 

[Tomenable]

Interesting blog about Y-DNA: http://blog.vayda.pl/en/i2a-dinaric-subclade-y3120-2/

 

[Tomenable]

Maciamo, these are ancient Proto-Balts rather than Proto-Slavs (Y-DNA calls from Genetiker):

Turlojiske3 (1 sample), Lithuania, Bronze Age, 1010–800 BC, R1a-Z92>Y4459>YP617

Kivutkalns (3 samples), Latvia, BA, 805–230 BC, R1a-Z280>CTS1211>YP1034>Y13467

=============

Most of Slavic R1a-CTS1211, is under Y35>CTS3402 and YP343 subclades. This data shows that great majority of Slavic CTS1211 belongs to Y35 branch (and within Y35, great majority belongs to CTS3402 - only YP4278 doesn't) as well as YP343 branch. In my opinion, other branches of CTS1211 (also known as M558) are Non-Slavic, but Baltic:

http://blog.vayda.pl/en/haplogroup-r1a-statistic-02-2018-14-new/

 

[Tomenable]

I deducted the clearly Baltic R1a lineages from Baltic countries, otherwise the percentage would be between 40 and 50% for Latvia and Lithuania. It is 10-15% on the map, but even that might be an overestimate as it's sometimes hard to tell Baltic from Slavic R1a apart from one another.

Yes it can be hard to tell them apart.

It would be easier to make a map showing Balto-Slavic Y-DNA (in such case you just have to count all of R1a-Z280 and you also have to add N1c-M2783 - which is the Baltic subclade of N1c - unless you count it as originally Uralic?).

But deducting Baltic R1a only from Baltic countries creates an illusion that all of R1a in neighbouring Slavic countries is Non-Baltic and Slavic. This is not really the case - Russians, Belarusians and Poles also carry Non-Slavic Baltic lineages of R1a, because Northeastern Poland, Northern Belarus and Northwestern Russia used to be inhabited by Balts before the Slavic expansion - and they became assimilated into Slavic populations. Later, there was also the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.

All in all, Baltic R1a is 10% to 15% of Polish R1a, if we count all Z92 and CTS1211 other than CTS3402/YP343.

See for example: http://www.gwozdz.org/Results.html

It can also be calculated based on FTDNA Projects.

 

[Tomenable]

Is there any R1a-Z92 among South Slavic populations?

 

[Tomenable]

Let me know if you have more accurate regional data.

That's a problem indeed.

Studies often have regional data, but they don't distinguish between subclades. And without distinguishing between subclades, it is hard to estimate the exact % of Slavic Y-DNA. Maybe I will try to calculate regional frequencies of main subclades based on FTDNA Projects.

 

[Tomenable]

One Belarusian user posted this on another forum:

Belarusian Y-DNA data from the 2013 Rozhansky study (n=1088):

R1a - 50.7%
I2 - 18.5%
N - 10.4%
R1b - 5.7%
I1 - 5.6%
E1b1b - 4.1%
J2 - 2.2%
Other (G2a, J1, Q, T, etc.) - 2.8%

It also seems that Belarusians have a high % of "Baltic" R1a-Z92:

http://blog.vayda.pl/en/haplogroup-r1a-statistic-02-2018-14-new/

This is consistent with Belarusian MyHeritage autosomal results I've seen.

They tend to score a lot of "Baltic" in MyHeritage, around 30% or so.

=====

Western Russia, Bryansk and Smolensk (n=86), from the same user:

R1a - 52.3%
N - 16.3%
I2 - 12.8%
R1b - 4.6%
I1 - 4.6%
J2 - 4.6%
E1b1b - 1.2%
Other - 3.6%

 

[Yaan]

Is there any R1a-Z92 among South Slavic populations?

Yes for example in Bulgaria about 2%-3% of the men carry R1a-Z92

 

[Tomenable]

Yes for example in Bulgaria about 2%-3% of the men carry R1a-Z92

Only 3 subclades of Z92 can be associated with Slavic expansions:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/35817-Age-and-TMRCA-of-common-Slavic-Y-DNA-lineages

Z92>Y4459>YP5520 (formed 3500 ybp, TMRCA 2500 ybp)
Z92>Y4459>YP617>YP573>YP569 (formed 3400 ybp, TMRCA 1900 ybp)
Z92>Z685>Z1907>CTS9551>YP5611 (formed 3900 ybp, TMRCA 1950 ybp)

But they most likely come from assimilated (Slavicized) Balts, not Proto-Slavs. I guess that shortly before Slavic expansions, Slavs had contact with some Baltic groups and assimilated them. Or perhaps Slavs themselves are a subgroup of Balts.

It is certain that there were close links between ancient Balts and Slavs but scholars debate the nature of those links.

There are - by the way - even some deep subclades of N1c that appear uniquely Slavic.

 

[Tutkun Arnaut]

Interesting blog about Y-DNA: http://blog.vayda.pl/en/i2a-dinaric-subclade-y3120-2/

You are using confusing terms to support your theories. According to Coon who came up with the term Dinaric , Dinarics are a population with physical features that came as a result of mixing Mediterranean populations with European one at some point in European history. So according to his definition of Dinaricism, Gheg Albanians are 100% Dinarics, following with Bosnians, and other south Slavs. Dinaricism of South Slavs came as a result of their mixing with pre Albanian populations. Its not I2a who makes a person Dinaric, its Albanian markers,. Nice try in your part to sneak a lie but its not going to work. Slavs are not Dinarics. They got their dinaricism from others. North Italy is heavy Dinaric and they are not I2a. So, there are Dinarics in certain percentages in Levant, Turkey etc. So again be careful with terms.