New map of Y-haplogroup J2b1 (M205)

I know, but that's a single J2 among hundreds of non-J2 Neolithic lineages. There was also a J2a in Barcın, who IMO was an Anatolian Mesolithic HG assimilated by Neolithic farmers, considering the low J2 frequency overall among Neolithic farmers in Europe, Anatolia and the Levant.

There was also a J2b sample from Pre-Pottery Neolithic Iran, and that points at a more eastern origin for J2b. I had already mentioned in several threads and on the J2 page for the last 3 years that J2b2 moved to the Steppe and integrated PIE society before the PIE migrations, as J2b2 has a distribution paralleling those of R1a1a and R1b-M269. I have now been able to determine that J2b2 moved across the Caucasus and went to the Volga-Ural region during the Neolithic, possibly bringing along some mt-haplogroups J1c, T2 and W (e.g. W3 and W6). As a minor lineage within the R1a-Z93 dominant populations, it would have expanded from the Volga-Ural region to Central and South Asia with the Indo-Aryan invasions. Nowadays, J2b2 is very common in the Volga-Ural region, but also at low frequencies all over Central and South Asia, the Middle East, as well as East and Central Europe, just like Y-haplogroup R1a.

Yes, there was two late Neolithic J2's in Sopot and Lengyel (Hungary). At the time they were not tested downstream of J2-M172, so their subclades are unknown. My guess is that they both are more likely to turn out J2a.


Regarding J2b2a-M241, your analysis seems to be all wrong! Just because you see a spot of it in Volga region, it doesn't mean it was spread from the Steppe to South Asia and Europe.
J2b2a-M241 split in early Neolithic to J2b2a-L283 (Balkans/Europe) and J2b2a-Z2432 (South Asia): https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M241/

All indications are that the Neolithic split was somewhere in the area of Western Iran to Caucasus with Z2432 expanding into South Asia during the Neolithic. As you can see the South Asian Z2432 branch has a TMRCA of ~7100 ybp, which is much earlier than Indo-Aryan expansion to the area.

The harder question at this point is when the 'European' L283 branch (TMRCA 5900 ybp) arrived to SE Europe. It seems most likely it was in the period between the Chalcolithic to Early Bronze Age. This is reinforced by the fact that RISE408 LBA Armenia was tested as J2b2a-L283>Z600 (xZ627), which is en early split of L283. The more likely migration was from Armenia/Anatolia to SE Europe through northern Anatolia, or even straight through the Black Sea would be possible. I suppose L283 could've gone north through the Caucuses to the Steppe and became part of BA expansion to SE Europe, but it seems unlikely at this point. Also the Volga-Ural J2b2a-L283 belongs all under J-Y12000 and has a TMRCA of 1600 ybp, as you can see on the bottom of L283 YFull tree.
 
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All indications are that the Neolithic split was somewhere in the area of Western Iran to Caucasus with Z2432 expanding into South Asia during the Neolithic. As you can see the South Asian Z2432 branch has a TMRCA of ~7100 ybp, which is much earlier than Indo-Aryan expansion to the area.
According to this tree the split between Vedic and Iranic occured 5000 years ago. It is possible that South Asian Z2432 migrated into the Northern India around that time. Contemporary to the Yamnaya Culture. Vedic was born in Northern India and when that language came into existence, many Y-DNA lineages migrated into Northern India from Iran at that time, including South Asian Z2432 and R1a-Z93, J2a etc.

2011_MCCtree_width_Cognate_Rate.jpg




proto-Vedic and proto-Iranic are VERY ancient languages. Much older than you may think. About the same age as Yamnaya Culture.
 
Y-STR variation in Albanian populations: implications on the match probabilities and the genetic legacy of the minority claiming an Egyptian descent. J2b-M241 or E-V13.. both haplogroups are over-represented in Albanian and Greek population respectively, and are associated with a Neolithic or even Mesolithic Balkans.I thought j2 was a med halopgroup

 
Thanks, Twilight.
I'm glad that other people, who don't belong to our haplogroup, shows interest about it.

We tested few guys from Kriči tribal area (Kričak, northwestern Montenegro) and few guys who have oral tradition about origin from Kriči tribe (one of them has surname Krička and he originated from Kričke village in Dalmatia, and according to tradition that village was founded by refugees from Kriči tribal area).

Biggest problem about Kriči tribe is that they were first overrun by Drobnjaci tribe (I1-P109), after that Ottomans conquered that area, and today they not exist as organized tribe, so we must look for families who have oral tradition about origin from them, families from their ex-tribal area, families with similar surnames (Kričak, Krička, Kričkić, Kričković).
Are you from montenegro if you dont mind me asking?If so could you possiably tell me what tribe you hail from thanks.
 
It's not 'these'. There is only one J2 in Sopot (which is a pre-Lengyel culture). I am not aware of any J2 in Lengyel itself. Let's also note that this J2 sample was part of a doctoral thesis, and that the only other Y-DNA reported was E-M78. I find it somewhat surprising that the only two Neolithic Y-haplogroups from this student thesis happen to be two haplogroups that haven't been found by any 'professional' study among one hundred Neolithic Y-DNA samples. Modern contamination cannot be ruled out.

The J2b in Roman Britain was autosomally from the south Levant, so related to the Bronze Age Jordan sample.

you're welcome Frointier :)


According to the History of Jordan, the pre-roman population was populated by the Ammonites, the Moabites and the Edomites. All of these tribes had connections to the Hebrew language. How to you suppose Hebrew speaking people dominated Britannia's minority Roman Immigrants?

Were the Jandani/Isreali immigrants to Brittania Missionaries, Legionaries, Farmers or a little bit of all?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jordan

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Levant
 
There are not neolithic and copper age J2 (except Sopot who is important for my theory) because we have not aDNA from neolithic, copper age and early bronze age from Italy and Balkans where J2 made an important percentage of modern population. Thinking that this Y-Chromosome is introduced in historical times is a nonsense in my opinion. When we have more samples from Mediterranean Europe we can take more accurate conclusions.
 
Are you from montenegro if you dont mind me asking?If so could you possiably tell me what tribe you hail from thanks.

No, I'm Croatian Serb, but my brotherhood originated from northwestern Montenegro.
 
Hello everyone. I am J2b1-M205 from Leskovac, Serbia. My ancestors were living in Novo Selo near Grdelica for a long time.
 
In 700 BC in Transilvania came a Scythian-iranian tribe called Agathyrsi:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agathyrsi
They were assimilated by dacians in a few centuries. The Agathyrsi area coincide with the J2b1 higher concentration in Transilvania that we can see in this map.
The Kriči tribe seem to be a preslavic population from Montenegro:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kri%C4%8Di
Their older origin is from West Transilvania - Crișana Region - name coming from the 3 rivers called Criș
http://www.incogniterra.org/pages/img/regions/Crisana2.jpg
In the region of Agathyrsi in Transilvania there are a lot of Iranian names exaclty like in Iran. Zarand Mountains (In Iran and in Transilvania), Carand (Transilvania)- Karand (Iran), Abrud(Transilvania)- Abrud (Iran).
Pottery found in Agathyrsi sites is exactly like iranian from the same time.
That means there was a fast migration tribe from Iran through North of Black see to Romania- more exactly Transilvania. They must of carryed this J2b1.
From Transilvania it must have spread to Balkans. But I believe it must have been also other wawe of iranian J2b1 that spreed it to Greece , Italy and Mediterana.
 
Yes, there was two late Neolithic J2's in Sopot and Lengyel (Hungary). At the time they were not tested downstream of J2-M172, so their subclades are unknown. My guess is that they both are more likely to turn out J2a.


Regarding J2b2a-M241, your analysis seems to be all wrong! Just because you see a spot of it in Volga region, it doesn't mean it was spread from the Steppe to South Asia and Europe.
J2b2a-M241 split in early Neolithic to J2b2a-L283 (Balkans/Europe) and J2b2a-Z2432 (South Asia): https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M241/

All indications are that the Neolithic split was somewhere in the area of Western Iran to Caucasus with Z2432 expanding into South Asia during the Neolithic. As you can see the South Asian Z2432 branch has a TMRCA of ~7100 ybp, which is much earlier than Indo-Aryan expansion to the area.

The harder question at this point is when the 'European' L283 branch (TMRCA 5900 ybp) arrived to SE Europe. It seems most likely it was in the period between the Chalcolithic to Early Bronze Age. This is reinforced by the fact that RISE408 LBA Armenia was tested as J2b2a-L283>Z600 (xZ627), which is en early split of L283. The more likely migration was from Armenia/Anatolia to SE Europe through northern Anatolia, or even straight through the Black Sea would be possible. I suppose L283 could've gone north through the Caucuses to the Steppe and became part of BA expansion to SE Europe, but it seems unlikely at this point. Also the Volga-Ural J2b2a-L283 belongs all under J-Y12000 and has a TMRCA of 1600 ybp, as you can see on the bottom of L283 YFull tree.

Sorry, I did not notice this post until today.

You are right that J2b2 split in two branches in the Neolithic. However it certainly did not come to the Balkans/Europe during the Neolithic. There have been hundreds of Neolithic European samples tested to date and J2b has never been among them. So far the first sample of J2b2a-L283 in Europe is from the Late Bronze Age in Croatia, and it did have about 30% of Steppe admixture + 15% of EHG, so it probably would have arrived recently from Eastern Europe.

I agree that the Z2432 branch might have headed straight from Iran to South Asia during the Neolithic. But it could just as well have moved to Central Asia and have been picked up by the Indo-Iranians later on. There is just no enough data from Central Asia at present to know how much of it is L283 and how much is Z2432. What is sure is that there is also some L283 in India as well as Armenia and Lebanon (all three belonging to the Z628 subclade with a TMRCA of 4400 ybp at Yfull) , so L283 must have an IE connection from the northern Steppe/Volga-Ural region, where the Indo-Iranian originated.
 
Sorry, I did not notice this post until today.

You are right that J2b2 split in two branches in the Neolithic. However it certainly did not come to the Balkans/Europe during the Neolithic. There have been hundreds of Neolithic European samples tested to date and J2b has never been among them. So far the first sample of J2b2a-L283 in Europe is from the Late Bronze Age in Croatia, and it did have about 30% of Steppe admixture + 15% of EHG, so it probably would have arrived recently from Eastern Europe.

I agree that the Z2432 branch might have headed straight from Iran to South Asia during the Neolithic. But it could just as well have moved to Central Asia and have been picked up by the Indo-Iranians later on. There is just no enough data from Central Asia at present to know how much of it is L283 and how much is Z2432. What is sure is that there is also some L283 in India as well as Armenia and Lebanon (all three belonging to the Z628 subclade with a TMRCA of 4400 ybp at Yfull) , so L283 must have an IE connection from the northern Steppe/Volga-Ural region, where the Indo-Iranian originated.

L283 in India indeed supports an IE origin, but I'm wondering, how much Alexander the great's conquests and the numerous kingdoms of his successors would spread Greek and other Balkan haplogroups in Iran and south Asia ? one way to resolve this is to test deep clades.
 
Well, his mother was mtDna I1a1, which might account for the steppe percentage? Of course, the mtDna and yDna might have traveled together.

I don't know whether it went from the Caucasus or Anatolia to the steppe and then to Europe, but if the Volga samples are younger than the Balkan samples, how is that proof of that hypothesis?
 
Sorry, I did not notice this post until today.

You are right that J2b2 split in two branches in the Neolithic. However it certainly did not come to the Balkans/Europe during the Neolithic. There have been hundreds of Neolithic European samples tested to date and J2b has never been among them. So far the first sample of J2b2a-L283 in Europe is from the Late Bronze Age in Croatia, and it did have about 30% of Steppe admixture + 15% of EHG, so it probably would have arrived recently from Eastern Europe.

I agree that the Z2432 branch might have headed straight from Iran to South Asia during the Neolithic. But it could just as well have moved to Central Asia and have been picked up by the Indo-Iranians later on. There is just no enough data from Central Asia at present to know how much of it is L283 and how much is Z2432. What is sure is that there is also some L283 in India as well as Armenia and Lebanon (all three belonging to the Z628 subclade with a TMRCA of 4400 ybp at Yfull) , so L283 must have an IE connection from the northern Steppe/Volga-Ural region, where the Indo-Iranian originated.

There is not any significant J2b2-L283 in India. In fact, there is only one person that I know of from India who is L283>>Z628+ (who ultimately may or may not be of European origin), everyone else is under J2b2-Z2432.
I do agree with the rest for the most part. However, as I have mentioned here the present Volga/Ural J2b2 is not an evidence that L283 came from the Steppe, as you have suggested (even though I agree that it eventually​ most likely migrated from that direction).

So far the first sample of J2b2a-L283 in Europe is from the Late Bronze Age in Croatia, and it did have about 30% of Steppe admixture + 15% of EHG, so it probably would have arrived recently from Eastern Europe.

Early to Middle Bronze Age, as it is from 1700-1500 BCE.
 
L283 in India indeed supports an IE origin, but I'm wondering, how much Alexander the great's conquests and the numerous kingdoms of his successors would spread Greek and other Balkan haplogroups in Iran and south Asia ? one way to resolve this is to test deep clades.

I'm wondering about that too.
 
Thanks, Twilight.
I'm glad that other people, who don't belong to our haplogroup, shows interest about it.

We tested few guys from Kriči tribal area (Kričak, northwestern Montenegro) and few guys who have oral tradition about origin from Kriči tribe (one of them has surname Krička and he originated from Kričke village in Dalmatia, and according to tradition that village was founded by refugees from Kriči tribal area).

Biggest problem about Kriči tribe is that they were first overrun by Drobnjaci tribe (I1-P109), after that Ottomans conquered that area, and today they not exist as organized tribe, so we must look for families who have oral tradition about origin from them, families from their ex-tribal area, families with similar surnames (Kričak, Krička, Kričkić, Kričković).

Interesting, maybe my hg has some connection to this tribe.
 
L283 in India indeed supports an IE origin, but I'm wondering, how much Alexander the great's conquests and the numerous kingdoms of his successors would spread Greek and other Balkan haplogroups in Iran and south Asia ? one way to resolve this is to test deep clades.

Alexander the Great theory is overblown. First of all Alexander in India stood for few months at most, and Alexanders Dna footprint in India is Zero. Turks stood 500 years in Greece and still they barely left 15% of their genes for so long time in general Greek population.
 
While we're on the subject of Alexander The Great. It's kinda interesting that Makedonija has the Mak which means in Serbo-Croatian Bosnian whatever Poppy so Poppy seeds = Mak
Macedonian word for poppy is Afion... Afganistan?
The Greek word for poppy is Paparouna

Did any fancy linguist academics notice this interesting connection...








 
While we're on the subject of Alexander The Great. It's kinda interesting that Makedonija has the Mak which means in Serbo-Croatian Bosnian whatever Poppy so Poppy seeds = Mak
Macedonian word for poppy is Afion... Afganistan?
The Greek word for poppy is Paparouna

Did any fancy linguist academics notice this interesting connection...

In ancient Greek it is μήκων (Αttic), μάκων (Doric) (~mekon - ~makon)

(In general Doric / NW Greek seems to be closer to Proto-Greek)

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0058:entry=mh/kwn&highlight=mh/kwn

The modern Greek word comes from Latin maybe through Aromanian (?).

Irrespective of the connection you tried to make it's interesting that a cognate of an Homeric word survives in Slavic languages. [Interestingly Hungarian too if Google Translate doesn't lie]

Concerning the rest in modern Greek there is a word αφιόνι (~afjoni) too (suppodedly with Greek origin (opos), it probably came here again as an Arabic loan to Turkic) and means poppy / opium but it is less commonly used.
 
In ancient Greek it is μήκων (Αttic), μάκων (Doric) (~mekon - ~makon)

(In general Doric / NW Greek seems to be closer to Proto-Greek)

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0058:entry=mh/kwn&highlight=mh/kwn

The modern Greek word comes from Latin maybe through Aromanian (?).

Irrespective of the connection you tried to make it's interesting that a cognate of an Homeric word survives in Slavic languages. [Interestingly Hungarian too if Google Translate doesn't lie]

Concerning the rest in modern Greek there is a word αφιόνι (~afjoni) too (suppodedly with IE root from Hellenistic Greek through Arabic and Turkic) and means poppy / opium but it is less commonly used.

Not sure what to make out of this, I tend to not jump to conclusions and just dive into all sorts of theories like some people do, I like concrete evidence and logic before I believe in something. But this is indeed very interesting, maybe proto-greeks have South Slavic roots. Of course that's not a popular idea cuz the mainstream narrative (mainly in the west) is that South Slavs migrate to the Balkans in the 6th or whatever century as Avar slaves while the Ilyrians vanish.
 
Not sure what to make out of this, I tend to not jump to conclusions and just dive into all sorts of theories like some people do, I like concrete evidence and logic before I believe in something. But this is indeed very interesting, maybe proto-greeks have South Slavic roots. Of course that's not a popular idea cuz the mainstream narrative (mainly in the west) is that South Slavs migrate to the Balkans in the 6th or whatever century as Avar slaves while the Ilyrians vanish.

The easy solution is to say the word was 'Paleo-Balkanic' or something.

Western and not western scholars have biases. When a medieval Greek text talks about some Sclavenes coming from the 'Western Ocean' the western scholar thinks the Baltic Sea which can be correct but I thought that if the geographical knowledge of the author was that bad maybe he could have called the Adriatic as 'the Western Ocean'(?)
 

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