Norwegian vikings and east-european admixture?

[ElHorsto]

So actually north-western european admixture is pretty same with eastern european admixture?
Except northwestern european admixture is northern european admixture + few gedrosia while eastern european admixture is northern european admixture + some caucasian admixture?

You forgot the Atlantic_med for "North_West_european".

For example the Irish, who are modal by "North_West" component, suddenly breaks down by K12b into 42% Atlantic_med + 45% North_euro + 13% Gedrosian. The Basques in turn become the main spot of "Atlantic_med" by having 73% of it.

The Latvians for example, where "East_european" (and K12b North_euro) peaks, the "East_european" component dissolves into 75% North_euro and only 14% Atlantic_med, and 9% Caucasus.

As I said:

North_West_euro =
+ Atlantic_med
+ North_euro
+ Gedrosian
- Caucasus

East_euro =
- Atlantic_med
+ North_euro
- Gedrosian
+ Caucasus

Somebody posted the link to the K12b table in the comments below the maps, so you can look by yourself:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/autosomal_maps_dodecad.shtml

 

[MOESAN]

Interesting thread and answers -
I shall try to put facts together keeping in mind that the pooling of autosomals is arbitrary)

north-eastern autosomals in Scotland is not so amazing – as I think they are linked to Y-R1a and Y-N1 for the bigger part, I remember a digest of survey about Vikings settlements in Brittain, specially about medieval coastal Lancashire and Cheshire that showed that then Y-I1 was lesser than today but Y-R1a was stronger – so this Vikings had different proportions than the most of Scandinavians (a blogger, Dublin I believe, spoke about Wends Vikings incorporated in Norwegian bands, - he considers them as Slavs but it is very astonishing ; Balts could fit better if it is true (all the way, Balts too have a lot of Y-R1a bearers – but it is just an hypothesis for now -
concerning Y-R1a, Scandinavians present (according to someones) a cluster different from the majoritary one among Slavs – as think others, it is surely linked to the Corded Ware people, of steppic I-E origin – going farther I remember the linguistic links between germanic and slavic or baltic-slavic languages thought to be occurred in a pre-satemisation or early satemisation stage – I remember also to a survey finding a kind of basque and a kind of satem substrates in Saami's finnish and I think to Corded people -
Corded People took part in the rising of germanic language but this germanic shows some common traits (and separate traits) with proto-celtic and proto-italic – the so called northwestern I-E language supposed to have been spoken between Belgium, the Netherland and Northwestern Germany could be the most important element in the germanic making – some scholars think it was closer to italic than to celtic : I have no idea of it (I regret) – in front of these facts I am tempted to think that a first wave of Corded people leaved Northern Germany and Baltic shores to cross to Sweden via Denmark, sending the partly satemised I-E into Scandinavia – only after went the I-E or indo-europeanized germanic speaking tribes to Scandinavia, being a melting of Y-R1b (more than an HG), Y-I1 and Y-R1a (the remnants of Northwest Corded people), with other « satellit » Hgs among whom Y-I1a2 could have been dominent (it is not so sure) -
the Y-R1b-L21 could be linked to megalithic neolithic seafarers but in western Norway they have been surely reinforced by the irish slaves trafic occurred later (moderately because male slaves were not used as « reproducters » I suppose, female slaves rather) – the R1b-U106 << R-L11 << R-L51 was, I think, a long time ago yet on the Baltic shores where it had found some Y-I1 bearers (ancient nordic phenotypic traits among Scandinavians and Frisons),: some subclades of Y-I1 in Finnland and the presence of Y-I1 in far places of Northern Russia in pre-uralic pre-I-E cultures ( ) seams confirming the presence of Y-I1 before the Steppes peoples invasions – Y-I1 speaking a basquelike languages ??? Not so impossible -
sure Y-I was in Scandinavia before Y-R1a ; it is not to affirm it was never completed by other Y-I1 came with germanized people – when we look at a map of SNPs distribution in Scandinavia we remark odd things :
-Y-I1 is slightly but regularly denser in South Scandinavia than in North (I keep on side Västerbotten for historic recent internal immigration from other corners of Sweden + Finnish-Lappish influences)
-Y-R1a is denser in northern and central and northern part of western Norway (Viking places) than in southern Norway and than in Sweden and Denmark !!!
-Y-R1b is denser in Denmark and in Aus-Agder (face to Denmark Jutland), dense enough in Sogn-&-Fjordane (northern part of Vikings coasts) and as a whole denser in western and southern Norway than in eastern or northern Norway – Sweden is there as eastern Norway, except Östergotland (east central) and Skaraborg, this last in Western Sweden -
so Y-R1b came in different waves AND with different SNPs (Germanics, Maybe Cimbers, Celts slaves) -
Y-R1a is old enough there yet, and could have send two types of languages successively -
Y-I1, too strong in South to be born only by invaded autochtonous people – H. Hubert thought that a nordic element (Y-I1 ?) could have imposed finally the germanic first consonnants drift but it was already IN Germany -
&: for today Germany, an heavy part of Y-R1a is linked to Slavs : two impacts : Middle Ages after the Folks Wanderung, when slav tribes reached so far as Hamburg and Schleswig, and our era (this late impact confirmed by patronymic polish names, the most in Eastern Germany but some emigration too in coal bassins of Western Germany – different R1a from the Corded steppic one -
11 : A Scythic theory runs too about Scandinavia – legend or facts ? These Scythes surely had Y-R1a but here let us be carefull...
I have no time to disgress here about scandinavian admixture of phenotypes but it could be interesting -

 

[zanipolo]

Interesting thread and answers -
I shall try to put facts together keeping in mind that the pooling of autosomals is arbitrary)

north-eastern autosomals in Scotland is not so amazing – as I think they are linked to Y-R1a and Y-N1 for the bigger part, I remember a digest of survey about Vikings settlements in Brittain, specially about medieval coastal Lancashire and Cheshire that showed that then Y-I1 was lesser than today but Y-R1a was stronger – so this Vikings had different proportions than the most of Scandinavians (a blogger, Dublin I believe, spoke about Wends Vikings incorporated in Norwegian bands, - he considers them as Slavs but it is very astonishing ; Balts could fit better if it is true (all the way, Balts too have a lot of Y-R1a bearers – but it is just an hypothesis for now -
concerning Y-R1a, Scandinavians present (according to someones) a cluster different from the majoritary one among Slavs – as think others, it is surely linked to the Corded Ware people, of steppic I-E origin – going farther I remember the linguistic links between germanic and slavic or baltic-slavic languages thought to be occurred in a pre-satemisation or early satemisation stage – I remember also to a survey finding a kind of basque and a kind of satem substrates in Saami's finnish and I think to Corded people -
Corded People took part in the rising of germanic language but this germanic shows some common traits (and separate traits) with proto-celtic and proto-italic – the so called northwestern I-E language supposed to have been spoken between Belgium, the Netherland and Northwestern Germany could be the most important element in the germanic making – some scholars think it was closer to italic than to celtic : I have no idea of it (I regret) – in front of these facts I am tempted to think that a first wave of Corded people leaved Northern Germany and Baltic shores to cross to Sweden via Denmark, sending the partly satemised I-E into Scandinavia – only after went the I-E or indo-europeanized germanic speaking tribes to Scandinavia, being a melting of Y-R1b (more than an HG), Y-I1 and Y-R1a (the remnants of Northwest Corded people), with other « satellit » Hgs among whom Y-I1a2 could have been dominent (it is not so sure) -
the Y-R1b-L21 could be linked to megalithic neolithic seafarers but in western Norway they have been surely reinforced by the irish slaves trafic occurred later (moderately because male slaves were not used as « reproducters » I suppose, female slaves rather) – the R1b-U106 << R-L11 << R-L51 was, I think, a long time ago yet on the Baltic shores where it had found some Y-I1 bearers (ancient nordic phenotypic traits among Scandinavians and Frisons),: some subclades of Y-I1 in Finnland and the presence of Y-I1 in far places of Northern Russia in pre-uralic pre-I-E cultures ( ) seams confirming the presence of Y-I1 before the Steppes peoples invasions – Y-I1 speaking a basquelike languages ??? Not so impossible -
sure Y-I was in Scandinavia before Y-R1a ; it is not to affirm it was never completed by other Y-I1 came with germanized people – when we look at a map of SNPs distribution in Scandinavia we remark odd things :
-Y-I1 is slightly but regularly denser in South Scandinavia than in North (I keep on side Västerbotten for historic recent internal immigration from other corners of Sweden + Finnish-Lappish influences)
-Y-R1a is denser in northern and central and northern part of western Norway (Viking places) than in southern Norway and than in Sweden and Denmark !!!
-Y-R1b is denser in Denmark and in Aus-Agder (face to Denmark Jutland), dense enough in Sogn-&-Fjordane (northern part of Vikings coasts) and as a whole denser in western and southern Norway than in eastern or northern Norway – Sweden is there as eastern Norway, except Östergotland (east central) and Skaraborg, this last in Western Sweden -
so Y-R1b came in different waves AND with different SNPs (Germanics, Maybe Cimbers, Celts slaves) -
Y-R1a is old enough there yet, and could have send two types of languages successively -
Y-I1, too strong in South to be born only by invaded autochtonous people – H. Hubert thought that a nordic element (Y-I1 ?) could have imposed finally the germanic first consonnants drift but it was already IN Germany -
&: for today Germany, an heavy part of Y-R1a is linked to Slavs : two impacts : Middle Ages after the Folks Wanderung, when slav tribes reached so far as Hamburg and Schleswig, and our era (this late impact confirmed by patronymic polish names, the most in Eastern Germany but some emigration too in coal bassins of Western Germany – different R1a from the Corded steppic one -
11 : A Scythic theory runs too about Scandinavia – legend or facts ? These Scythes surely had Y-R1a but here let us be carefull...
I have no time to disgress here about scandinavian admixture of phenotypes but it could be interesting -

while I agree with most of what you say, ftdna has these for sweden
http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/swedes.html

The problem is that per percentage of slave holding people the vikings where number 1 ( but this does not mean numerical majority as vikings where not that numerous) , with this slave "labour" force the genetics could change even though pagan sacrifices where a norm. The raids on baltic lands for slaves especially, samogitia ( balts) and the island of Osel ( finn) would mix the race.

As you will notice in the link inside the link i provided, the R1a1 in sweden did not come from the finns or balts but the germans

 

[MOESAN]

while I agree with most of what you say, ftdna has these for sweden
http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/swedes.html

The problem is that per percentage of slave holding people the vikings where number 1 ( but this does not mean numerical majority as vikings where not that numerous) , with this slave "labour" force the genetics could change even though pagan sacrifices where a norm. The raids on baltic lands for slaves especially, samogitia ( balts) and the island of Osel ( finn) would mix the race.

As you will notice in the link inside the link i provided, the R1a1 in sweden did not come from the finns or balts but the germans

Thanks for the link - I 'll try to understand itV.
concerning Y-R1a, maybe I habe not been clear enough but I thought it was common with the majority Germans R1a - my guess is that this first germanic R1a is of a previous steppic model (Corded mediated) and that it was too the dominent R1a among inhabitants of South Baltic shores about the 3000 BC, not obligatory of the present day Baltic or Finnic people!
for Y-R1B-L21 I remain cautious because it do not believe it was the male slaves that passed a huge quantity of genes to descendance (more by female ones) -it is surely worth for Irish slavs and for Slavic slaves???
good brain storm to all of us!

 

[ElHorsto]

there is the Wehli also spelt as per below
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warini
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suardones

Insteresting, it seems like the origin of the name Schwerin is not certain. But in the official history of that town it is assumed to be derived from slavic zvěŕin. But according to Wikipedia, there are also alternative interpretarions:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt_Schwerin#Namensherkunft

That Suardone's one is not mentioned, but also possible, why not.
I agree with you that it is valid to speculate about assimilation of east germanic tribes by slavs.

 

[MOESAN]

just a question:
are not the Northern's and the Scandinavian's STRs of Y-R1a linked tightly within them? beacuse some STRs could be very young
thanks for an answer from the well informed bloggers

 

[Adam]

Slavic names and true history

but names of places change over time, what was the mecklenburg names in roman times, i bet they where not slavic.

like danzig became gdansk...what was it in roman times?

the only "slavic" cluster for mecklenburg of R1a1 is

And again, claiming slavic due to linguistic reasons ruins the true genetic history

maybe this is not even mecklenburg!!

With Danzig/Gdansk I believe I can help. Both German and Polish names are coming from original Kashubian version "Gduńsk" (should read like "gdoonisk" - 'ni' or 'ń' is soft 'n'). Kashubian are Slavs speaking quite ancient version of Slavic language. Pre-slavic core of 'gd' is marking wet or marshy place or area. As far as I know 'Gduńsk' means "marshy island" or "marshy penisula on the river bank"
You are right that the names changes over times, but the core or appendixes are remaining. For example Kashubian "Gduńsk" evolved into Polish "Gdańsk" which evolved into German Danzig. In oposite German "Marienburg" evolved into Polish "Malbork". Specialists can easily find that core and appendix in word "Malbork" are not of Polish origin in the same way as they find that "Gduńsk" has core of non-German origin. When El-Horsto is writing about strong evidence regarding Slavic toponyms he has realy undisputed evidence, not only linguistic but archeological as well.

What concerns calling R1a1 "Slavic"cluster I believe it is a bit exaggeration. I would rather call it "pre-balto-slavic" or "indoeuropean - pre-slavic". Even I am Polish and Slav I do not believe that we can say about Slavic "etnos" shortly after R1a1 appeared.
However, it is hard to miss that population with cluster R1a and R1a1 was rather active in the history. We can find their descendants far in Asia including India :grin:
So, why not on British Isles which are much closer. By the way, I know that Slavic Princes and Kings were employing Vikings as "professional military personnel" and in exchange Slavs were taking part in some Viking expeditions within Baltic Sea area or even further. So, they had many opportunities to "exchange the blood" or leave the traces like R1a1 cluster in some distant areas in Europe.

 

[zanipolo]

With Danzig/Gdansk I believe I can help. Both German and Polish names are coming from original Kashubian version "Gduńsk" (should read like "gdoonisk" - 'ni' or 'ń' is soft 'n'). Kashubian are Slavs speaking quite ancient version of Slavic language. Pre-slavic core of 'gd' is marking wet or marshy place or area. As far as I know 'Gduńsk' means "marshy island" or "marshy penisula on the river bank"
You are right that the names changes over times, but the core or appendixes are remaining. For example Kashubian "Gduńsk" evolved into Polish "Gdańsk" which evolved into German Danzig. In oposite German "Marienburg" evolved into Polish "Malbork". Specialists can easily find that core and appendix in word "Malbork" are not of Polish origin in the same way as they find that "Gduńsk" has core of non-German origin. When El-Horsto is writing about strong evidence regarding Slavic toponyms he has realy undisputed evidence, not only linguistic but archeological as well.

What concerns calling R1a1 "Slavic"cluster I believe it is a bit exaggeration. I would rather call it "pre-balto-slavic" or "indoeuropean - pre-slavic". Even I am Polish and Slav I do not believe that we can say about Slavic "etnos" shortly after R1a1 appeared.
However, it is hard to miss that population with cluster R1a and R1a1 was rather active in the history. We can find their descendants far in Asia including India :grin:
So, why not on British Isles which are much closer. By the way, I know that Slavic Princes and Kings were employing Vikings as "professional military personnel" and in exchange Slavs were taking part in some Viking expeditions within Baltic Sea area or even further. So, they had many opportunities to "exchange the blood" or leave the traces like R1a1 cluster in some distant areas in Europe.

In original place names literature/book , gdansk came from gutisk , a gothic word, it's original name was Gutiskanja , which meant gothic peninsula. and I also found this

a Gothic name, from Gutisk-anja, "end of the Goths," .......the latinised word was Gothiscandza

Original name was mid iron-age,

 

[zanipolo]

Goths where originally R1a, then picked up I1 when they went to sweden and returned back to the pommeranian/vistula area.

IIRC , KN stated a few months ago the I1-Z63 was thought to be gothic .....it was in rootsweb site somewhere.

I wonder what DNA they picked up on there way in absorbing the Aestii, Venedi, peucini, bastanae, sarmatians, gepids, getae etc etc into their armies while settling on the black sea

 

[ElHorsto]

Goths where originally R1a, then picked up I1 when they went to sweden and returned back to the pommeranian/vistula area.

However, this was before the huge slavic expansion. Yet it could be that "extinct" east germanic tribes were slavicised or were even participating in the slavic ethnogenesis, since slavs appeared quite late in history and increased quickly a lot by numbers. Slavs probably assimilated balts as well.

 

[MOESAN]

Goths where originally R1a, then picked up I1 when they went to sweden and returned ba IIRC , KN stated a few months ago the I1-Z63 was thought to be gothic .....it was in rootsweb site somewhere.
I wonder what DNA they picked up on there way in absorbing the Aestii, Venedi, peucini, bastanae, sarmatians, gepids, getae etc etc into their armies while settling on the black sea

1- what do we know about origin of Goths ?: almost nothing, i suppose ; their myths were contradicted (without any proof) and a scandinavian origin refused to them by someones – let's imagine their cradle was South the Baltic shores : I don't think Y-R1a (whatever the SNP) was the only kind of population there about the -3000/-2500: I think Y-I1 bearers were there before, and that since Chalcolithic and maybe sooner some Y-R1b-U106 begun already to mix with them (I 'm almost sure of two waves of Y-I1 into Scandinavia : a first one which gave birth to the 'norse' and 'finnic' SNPs, and a second wave, closer to the anglo-saxon SNPs and that landed in Scandinavia from South with Proto-Germanics or completely evolved Germanics (debated) -

2- Y-R1a had more than a wave getting westwards : if I could rely on some affirmations I would say : some ancient maybe central-european variety (L664?) close yet to Z85-M417, that could represent an old elite 'centum' (proto-celto-italico-germanic? Danau way?), very rare today - a Z284 variety that could be from the Corded, shared by old Germans and Scandinavians and send to Scotland by Vikings, shared too maybe by first Pre-Balto-Slavic – the famous M458 of the Slavs from the Dniestr/Dniepr region, seamingly the result of a founder-effect giving the crow of previous well defined Slav tribes and that can be seen in Germany, in Eastern germany for the most, and send there by the Middle Ages slavic colonizations of Germany which went until South Schleswig, I red I regret I have not at hand %s of all the R1a SNPs in these countries, I have only the 'pole' regions of some common SNPs-

3- I don't think 'caucasic' have e big weight in the 'North-east autosomals component in yellow: the center of gravity is very too centered around Lituhania - I think there is a difference between a possible 'North' (not 'North-West') component and a 'North-East' one, the two distinct from an 'Atlantic' one, not 'North-West' ('North-West- = confusion 'Atlantic'+'North') - all the way Scotland received more Viking blood (+ some Slavic elements? >> excess of R&a+Q?) and that could explain very well the little excess of North-East component -

 

[zanipolo]

However, this was before the huge slavic expansion. Yet it could be that "extinct" east germanic tribes were slavicised or were even participating in the slavic ethnogenesis, since slavs appeared quite late in history and increased quickly a lot by numbers. Slavs probably assimilated balts as well.

I doubt the goths where ever slavitized , the germanic people according to Roman historians where on the Dniester river, Bastanae to the south and Peucini north of them, the Finni where north of the peucini on the baltic sea. The goths language has no slavic or baltic that I can tell. They did vacate the pommerian vistula area by 200AD ( of course not 100% of people ever moved when they migrated, it was not the system like the red-indians of the north americas.

The norse invaded the shore lines and I presume came in from the east and occupied the middle. You need to remember, if the slavs came in earlier, then the east-germanic migrations, of Lombards, burgundians, rugii, heruli etc etc could never have happened.

 

[zanipolo]

1- what do we know about origin of Goths ?: almost nothing, i suppose ; their myths were contradicted (without any proof) and a scandinavian origin refused to them by someones – let's imagine their cradle was South the Baltic shores : I don't think Y-R1a (whatever the SNP) was the only kind of population there about the -3000/-2500: I think Y-I1 bearers were there before, and that since Chalcolithic and maybe sooner some Y-R1b-U106 begun already to mix with them (I 'm almost sure of two waves of Y-I1 into Scandinavia : a first one which gave birth to the 'norse' and 'finnic' SNPs, and a second wave, closer to the anglo-saxon SNPs and that landed in Scandinavia from South with Proto-Germanics or completely evolved Germanics (debated) -

2- Y-R1a had more than a wave getting westwards : if I could rely on some affirmations I would say : some ancient maybe central-european variety (L664?) close yet to Z85-M417, that could represent an old elite 'centum' (proto-celto-italico-germanic? Danau way?), very rare today - a Z284 variety that could be from the Corded, shared by old Germans and Scandinavians and send to Scotland by Vikings, shared too maybe by first Pre-Balto-Slavic – the famous M458 of the Slavs from the Dniestr/Dniepr region, seamingly the result of a founder-effect giving the crow of previous well defined Slav tribes and that can be seen in Germany, in Eastern germany for the most, and send there by the Middle Ages slavic colonizations of Germany which went until South Schleswig, I red I regret I have not at hand %s of all the R1a SNPs in these countries, I have only the 'pole' regions of some common SNPs-

3- I don't think 'caucasic' have e big weight in the 'North-east autosomals component in yellow: the center of gravity is very too centered around Lituhania - I think there is a difference between a possible 'North' (not 'North-West') component and a 'North-East' one, the two distinct from an 'Atlantic' one, not 'North-West' ('North-West- = confusion 'Atlantic'+'North') - all the way Scotland received more Viking blood (+ some Slavic elements? >> excess of R&a+Q?) and that could explain very well the little excess of North-East component -

?
I do not understand, we have their language , there history , there archeology all recorded.

The lived as per polish and sedish evidence, between the oder and Nogat river, they firstly migrated to Sweden , then came back and migrated to the black sea.......of course they absorbed many people/tribes, destroyed the Sarmatians etc

R1a did not arrive only with the slavs, it was already in the area before the slavs where even "born"
http://www.muzarp.poznan.pl/archweb/gazociag/title5.htm

The I1 on the shores of Poland was both the gothic venture to sweden , absorbing the populance and late nordic people settling there

 

[MOESAN]

?
I do not understand, we have their language , there history , there archeology all recorded.

The lived as per polish and sedish evidence, between the oder and Nogat river, they firstly migrated to Sweden , then came back and migrated to the black sea.......of course they absorbed many people/tribes, destroyed the Sarmatians etc

R1a did not arrive only with the slavs, it was already in the area before the slavs where even "born"
http://www.muzarp.poznan.pl/archweb/gazociag/title5.htm

The I1 on the shores of Poland was both the gothic venture to sweden , absorbing the populance and late nordic people settling there

I don't understand why you don't understand! (smile)
1 and 2 in my answer concerns the different possibilities and periods for Y-R1a to be there and also the others HGs it could have found in Northern Europe at ancient times: I maintain!
3 is about the supposed weight of caucasic autosomals in the so called 'northeastern component' and the astonishment of some posters about presence of this component in Scotland
concerning Goths, I don't affirm something precise, I just show my "disarray" in front of a lot of contradictory affirmations about them... If you know something solid and precise about their birth history, please send me a digest by personal message, I 'll be glad to inform myself. No offense

 

[ElHorsto]

I doubt the goths where ever slavitized , the germanic people according to Roman historians where on the Dniester river, Bastanae to the south and Peucini north of them, the Finni where north of the peucini on the baltic sea. The goths language has no slavic or baltic that I can tell.

The challenge would be not to find slavic words in gothic, but gothic words in slavic.

They did vacate the pommerian vistula area by 200AD ( of course not 100% of people ever moved when they migrated, it was not the system like the red-indians of the north americas.

Seems like you agree then that some east germanics could have possibly remained in east europe.

The norse invaded the shore lines and I presume came in from the east and occupied the middle. You need to remember, if the slavs came in earlier, then the east-germanic migrations, of Lombards, burgundians, rugii, heruli etc etc could never have happened.

That's why I said that Slavs appeared late, not early. Hence I wonder whether slavs came to existence by mixture of east germanic remnants, antes, balkanians and/or balts. Else it is a mystery how half of europe became slavic suddenly, when right before almost nobody knew about them. Maybe the hunnic and mongolic threads during the migration period pushed alliances and unifications among east european tribes. The gothic kingdom was very large and included belarus and large parts of russia and ukraine, until the huns destroyed it. The gothic people was in big trouble then. Some historians believe that gothic language remnants were still living in 18th century CE at Crimea.

 

[Taranis]

The challenge would be not to find slavic words in gothic, but gothic words in slavic.

Actually there's a substantial input of Germanic words into Proto-Slavic, starting with Proto-Germanic and then later Gothic or otherwise East Germanic. Some notable borrowings include the words for beech (Rus. бук, "buk", cf. German "Buche"), bread (Rus. хлеб, "khleb", cf. German "Laib"), helmet (Rus. шлем, "shlem") and onion (Rus. лук, "luk", cf. German "Lauch").

The Proto-Slavic-speaking peoples must have had either centuries of contact with Germanic-speaking peoples before the Proto-Slavic language began to separate into it's daughter branches, or perhaps absorbed a large number of Germanic speakers. I tend to think both is the case.

Seems like you agree then that some east germanics could have possibly remained in east europe.

There were not only East Germanic tribes in the area that became later Slavic: before the migration period, there were no East Germanic tribes living in the areas along the Elbe and Saale rivers and in Bohemia. Likewise, the areas of the Western Balkans and the Pannonian basin (eg. the areas which are today South Slavic) were probably inhabited by Late Latin / Romance speakers, and possibly whatever little remained by that time of the pre-Roman languages in the area.

That's why I said that Slavs appeared late, not early. Hence I wonder whether slavs came to existence by mixture of east germanic remnants, antes, balkanians and/or balts. Else it is a mystery how half of europe became slavic suddenly, when right before almost nobody knew about them. Maybe the hunnic and mongolic threads during the migration period pushed alliances and unifications among east european tribes. The gothic kingdom was very large and included belarus and large parts of russia and ukraine, until the huns destroyed it. The gothic people was in big trouble then.

Some historians believe that gothic language remnants were still living in 18th century CE at Crimea.

Crimean Gothic certainly survived until the 16th century: the then Austrian ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, Ogier Ghiselin de Busbecq, recorded a large list of Crimean Gothic terms. An online version can be found here.

 

[zanipolo]

I don't understand why you don't understand! (smile)
1 and 2 in my answer concerns the different possibilities and periods for Y-R1a to be there and also the others HGs it could have found in Northern Europe at ancient times: I maintain!
3 is about the supposed weight of caucasic autosomals in the so called 'northeastern component' and the astonishment of some posters about presence of this component in Scotland
concerning Goths, I don't affirm something precise, I just show my "disarray" in front of a lot of contradictory affirmations about them... If you know something solid and precise about their birth history, please send me a digest by personal message, I 'll be glad to inform myself. No offense

People refer to north caucasian ( ossetians, dagesians etc ) as caucasian when they should be refered as volga-basin people, while caucasian should only mean georgian, azeri, lezkins and armenians.
you just need to be careful on what these people actually mean.

Recent historical books, scientific archeology from both Polish and swedish people have confirmed what I said
http://www.daastol.com/books/Nordgren,WellSpringofGoths.pdf

above link from page 373 might answer you....its a difficult read. Book is only a few years old but covers everything. The first part of the book covers ancient pagan folklore on how the goths originated in jutland and moved east along the coast. From page 373 there is more archeology from polish people.

 

[zanipolo]

The challenge would be not to find slavic words in gothic, but gothic words in slavic.



Seems like you agree then that some east germanics could have possibly remained in east europe.



That's why I said that Slavs appeared late, not early. Hence I wonder whether slavs came to existence by mixture of east germanic remnants, antes, balkanians and/or balts. Else it is a mystery how half of europe became slavic suddenly, when right before almost nobody knew about them. Maybe the hunnic and mongolic threads during the migration period pushed alliances and unifications among east european tribes. The gothic kingdom was very large and included belarus and large parts of russia and ukraine, until the huns destroyed it. The gothic people was in big trouble then. Some historians believe that gothic language remnants were still living in 18th century CE at Crimea.

they only became slavic late in history and only because of the slavic tongue, similar is the southern germany/austrian areas became germanic because of language after the fall of the roman empire..........of course some migration/invasions did happen.

The only reason the goths moved from the black sea area after being there 200 plus years was because the hunnic invasions happened

 

[zanipolo]

The slavics could only have picked up the gothic words once the goths settled on the black sea, history says the goths destroyed the sarmatians and absorbed part of the population

 

[MOESAN]

thanks for links and explanations (Zanipolo, Taranis)
Taranis: where do you place the contact zone for proto-germanic/proto-slavic ??? your position could imply the proto-germanic was very continental at first: or could it be a fated culture language (I think in Corded people) that was at the articulation of the two groups? maybe could you explain me how are proved the direction of loaning words in these cases? (some examples)
thank beforehand