(OFFTOPIC from I2a-Din on the Balkans)

[how yes no 3]

I thing we going away from the subject,


Thracian at least from the know vocabulary that is written in Hellenistic has nothing to do with Slavic neither with scythian
but mostly with Greek Anatolian Germanic baltic, it was neither satem for me.

no offense but there is no data for such conclusions...
thracian words we know were recorded in greek which gives them greek look and feel but that doesnot mean they were originally similar to greek words in any way...


there are 23 words in total that are recorded as thracian words... the rest is just guessing e.g. based on guessing the meaning of river names, town names...

1. asa ‘colt’s foot (Tussilago farfara)’. That was its Bessian name according to Dioskurides.

its about this plant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tussilago_farfara
i do not even know about this plant or its name in Serbian... i had to look on wikipedia to find out it is "podbel"
...if someone asked me to name it I would say it looks like "maslačak"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taraxacum
, knowing that -čak is common ending for small plants and animals (e.g. različak, cvrčak, čičak..) root word would be masla
which would to non speaker of the language such as Dioskurides easily sound like "asa"

2. bólinthos ‘wild bull, bison’. The word is attested in Aristotle, according to whom that animal lived in the Messapian mountain, which separated the country of the Peonians from that of the Maideans (a Thracian tribe inhabiting the middle course of Struma and upper course of Mesta), and that the Peonians called it mónapos. Therefore, bolinthos was a Maidean, that is, a Thracian word. It is compared to the German Bulle ‘bull’ and is derived from the IE *bhn-ent.

first one should discard greek ending that was likely added by Aristotle...
so it is not bolinthos, but bolin

PIE word
vol = ox in serbian
volina would be to tell person he is ox - rude, crude, harsh, stupid...

3. bria ‘town’ (Strab.; Steph. Byz. under the word of Messembria). Both authors state the word was Thracian. It is often found as a second component of Thracian settlement names, for example: Messembria, Poltymbria, Slymbria, Skedabria, etc. The Thracian ‘bria’ is related to the Toch. A ri, B riye ‘town (a refuge on a hill)’ – from the IE *ri.

-ija is typical Slavic ending for place names and area names....
Holandija, Austrija, Srbija, Rusija, Belorusija...

4. briza ‘spelt, rye’ (Gal. de alim. facult. 1, 13/6 p. 514. Kühn). The author (Galen) saw this plant in Thracia and in Macedonia and concluded the word was Thracian. It is very probable.

PIE
rye in english
raž in slavic languages

5. brynchós ‘guitar for the Thracians’ (Hesych.). The word is related to the Pol. brzek ‘a ringing, a tinkle’, Ukr. brjak ‘a ringing, a sound’.

serbo-croat brundati = to talk/make noise with low frequency sounds ..
e.g. the noise that a car engine makes


maybe it was about bass guitar

6. brytos (masc.), bryton (neuter) ‘a kind of ale from barley, a beer’ (Archil. Hecat. and others), brutos (Hesych.), bryttion (Herodian.). The word was used by the Thracians, the Peonians and the Phrygians. It is related to the Anglo-Saxon brod, Old-HighGerman prod ‘broth’.

7. dinupula (sinupyla) ‘wild pumpkin’ (Pseudoap.). Opposite to the Dacian name of this plant kinuboila (Dioskur.) Pseudoapuleus noted that the Besses call it dinupula or sinupyla, the latter reconstructed from the text “Bessi nupyla” instead of “Bessi (si)nupyla”. Both names originate from the IE *k’un-bol, literally ‘dog’s apple’, which leads to the identical Lith. ùn-obuolas with the same meaning.

dinja in serbo-croat, probably same in other Slavic

8. génton ‘meat’ (Eust. ad Odyss. XIX 28 p. 1854; ad II. XII 25; Herodian., Suid., Hesych.) from the IE *ghen-to- ‘stabbed, cut’, Old-Ind. hata’- ‘hit, killed’.

9. kalamíndar ‘plane-tree’ for the Thracian tribe of Edoni (Hesych.). Of unclear etymology.

what?

10. kemos ‘a kind of fruit with follicles’ (Phot. Lex.). Not interpreted.

in fact this was perhaps about traditional food made of fruits
the person without preknowledge of this food and procedure in which it is made, might describe the boiling fluid as something with follicles.


PIE
englis jam
south slavic džem

11. ktístai ‘Thracians, living in celibacy; monks’ (Strab.). There is no convincing etymology.

-sta is common ending when classifying a group of people playing certain role, doing certain work...


e.g. karatista = person with karate skills, statista = person that plays side role in a movie, scenarista = person that writes movie scripts....


if -sta is common ending for person belonging to a wider group, than kti- is about celibacy


kći = daughter


ktistai could be coin word: kći (daughter) + (po)stati (to become)

12. midne ‘village’, initially ‘a place of stay’. The word occurs in the Latin inscription from Rome, which speaks about a citizen of the province of Thracia and adds: Midne Potelense, stating in this way his place of origin (CIL, VI, Nr. 32567-2819). The publisher of the inscription proposed that this was the Thracian word for the Latin vicus ‘village’, which is very probable. There is an exact correspondence with the Latv. mitne ‘a place of stay, a dwelling, a shelter’ from the older *mutin.

PIE

village is extrapolation of meaning... it was word used to describe area from which someone was...

PIE


serbo-croat medju (among, between)- when describing a place roughly being in some area


also
english middle. median

13. póltyn ‘a board fence, a board tower, a fortification of beams and boards’ (Etym. M.), from the IE *(s)p-tu--, compare with the Old-Icel. spjald (<*spel-to-s) ‘a board’, Anglo-Saxon speld ‘wood, log’, German spalten ‘to chop, to splinter’. The word is regarded as being Thracian because it is an element of the village name Poltym-bria, which is among the indisputably Thracian names ending on -bria.

serbo-croat plot - fence made of wood

14. rhompháia ‘a spear’, later ‘a sword’ (Plut. Aem. Paul. 18; Eust. ad II. VI 166; Hesych.). Other forms of the word are rumpia (Liv., Gell., Ascon. ad Mil.), romphea (Isid. Etym.), romphaea vel romfea (CGL 7, 212). W. Tomaschek listed the Bulg. roféja, rufja ‘a thunderbolt’ and the Alb. rrufë as derivatives of that word. It was also preserved in modern Greek as rhomphaia ‘a big broad sword’. The Thracian rhomphaia contains the IE stem *rump- in the Latin rumpo, -ere ‘to break, to tear’.

PIE


romb = geometrical figure that looks like spear
english rhomb, rhombus

15. skálm ‘a knife, a sword’ (Soph. y Pollux 10, 165; Marcus Anton., Hesych., Phot. Lex.). A. Fick compared this word with the Old-Icel. skolm ‘a short sword, a knife’ from the IE *skolm, a derivative from the IE stem *skel- ‘to cut’.

PIE
slavic skalpel
english scalpel

16. skárke ‘a silver coin for the Thracians’ (Hesych., Phot. Lex.) A. Fick explains it as ‘a jingling coin’ from the IE *skerg- ‘to jingle’, compare the Old-Norse skark ‘a noise’, Old-Ind. kharjati ‘to creak, to crunch’ from the IE *skoeg-.

škrinja - croatian for box in which treasure is kept (english 'chest')

17. spínos ‘a stone which burns when water is poured on it’ (Arist.). There are no interpretations.

PIE


slavic 'sapun' = english 'soap'

18. torélle ‘a refrain of lament, mourn (song)’ (Hesych.). There is no acceptable etymology.

19. zalmós ‘a hide’ (Porphyr.). It is related to the Old-Pruss. salmis ‘helm’, the Lith. sálmas;

PIE
slavic 'šlem' = english 'helmet'

20. zeirá, zirá ‘a type of upper garment’ (Hdt., Xen., Hesych.). There are no acceptable etymologies.

slavic 'zar' = english 'veil'
note that this was often made of silk that was in ancient times produced by serians from Serica

21. zelâs ‘wine’ (Choerob. 124, 11 Gaisf.), zlas (Cobeti excerpt e cod. Marc. 489), zeilá (Phot. Lex.), zílai (Hesych.). As related to it are given the Greek chális ‘pure (not watered down) wine’, the Mac. kálithos ‘wine’ (Hesych.), the Old-Ind. hla ‘brandy’. The Thracian zelâs can be also compared to the Lith. alas ‘red (for cattle)’, the Latv. zals ‘bright red, brown’, the Bret. gell ‘reddish, brown’, all from the IE *g’hel- ‘to shine’. Thus for the Thracians the wine got his name from its red colour.

22. zetráia ‘a pot’ (Pollux). From the initial form *zeutraia from the IE *g’heutr- towards the IE stem *g’heu- ‘to pour’.

23. zibythides ‘the noble Thracian men and women’ (Hesych.).
A. Fick explains it as a Grecized form from the Lith. ibeti (ibù) ‘to shine, to light’. He interpreted it as a participle meaning ‘splendidus, illustris, erlaucht’
and wrote it in the form zibynthides, which actually did not exist.
Apart from the Greek ending -id-(es), the initial word zibut- has an exact parallel in the Lith. ibute ‘a fire, light’ and ‘something light’.
But Fick was right translating the Thracian word as ‘most holy one’.

serbo-croat šibice = matches


I cannot say its a match, i cannot say it is not...
there is simply not enough words attested to be thracian and with known meaning...

I do not relate Thracians to I2a-din but mostly to originally R1a people on which E-V13 + J2 layer was superimposed later (when? with hellenic expansion or with roman expansion?) ... so original language and tribal name of Thracians was probably related to proto-Slavic people....

I2a-Din spread along Danube, so it was probably present in northern Thracians, such as Triballi...regarding attempts to equate Serbs with Triballians... i can accept Triballi being perhaps of Serian stock...hence, Serb or Serian is a race name, Triballians is one of tribe names that might correspond to Terbunions - Serb tribe that settled south east Herzegovina...
http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al...istrando imperio&pg=PA163#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[Yetos]

no offense but there is no data for such conclusions...
thracian words we know were recorded in greek which gives them greek look and feel but that doesnot mean they were originally similar to greek words in any way...


there are 23 words in total that are recorded as thracian words... the rest is just guessing e.g. based on guessing the meaning of river names, town names...


its about this plant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tussilago_farfara
i do not even know about this plant or its name in Serbian... i had to look on wikipedia to find out it is "podbel"
...if someone asked me to name it I would say it looks like "maslačak"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taraxacum
, knowing that -čak is common ending for small plants and animals (e.g. različak, cvrčak, čičak..) root word would be masla
which would to non speaker of the language such as Dioskurides easily sound like "asa"



first one should discard greek ending that was likely added by Aristotle...
so it is not bolinthos, but bolin

PIE word
vol = ox in serbian
volina would be to tell person he is ox - rude, crude, harsh, stupid...






-ija is typical Slavic ending for place names and area names....
Holandija, Austrija, Srbija, Rusija, Belorusija...




PIE
rye in english
raž in slavic languages






serbo-croat brundati = to talk/make noise with low frequency sounds ..
e.g. the noise that a car engine makes


maybe it was about bass guitar










dinja in serbo-croat, probably same in other Slavic







what?






in fact this was perhaps about traditional food made of fruits
the person without preknowledge of this food and procedure in which it is made, might describe the boiling fluid as something with follicles.


PIE
englis jam
south slavic džem






-sta is common ending when classifying a group of people playing certain role, doing certain work...


e.g. karatista = person with karate skills, statista = person that plays side role in a movie, scenarista = person that writes movie scripts....


if -sta is common ending for person belonging to a wider group, than kti- is about celibacy


kći = daughter


ktistai could be coin word: kći (daughter) + (po)stati (to become)





PIE

village is extrapolation of meaning... it was word used to describe area from which someone was...

PIE


serbo-croat medju (among, between)- when describing a place roughly being in some area


also
english middle. median








serbo-croat plot - fence made of wood



PIE


romb = geometrical figure that looks like spear
english rhomb, rhombus







PIE
slavic skalpel
english scalpel



škrinja - croatian for box in which treasure is kept (english 'chest')



PIE


slavic 'sapun' = english 'soap'








PIE
slavic 'šlem' = english 'helmet'





slavic 'zar' = english 'veil'
note that this was often made of silk that was in ancient times produced by serians from Serica















serbo-croat šibice = matches


I cannot say its a match, i cannot say it is not...
there is simply not enough words attested to be thracian and with known meaning...

I do not relate Thracians to I2a-din but mostly to originally R1a people on which E-V13 + J2 layer was superimposed later (when? with hellenic expansion or with roman expansion?) ... so original language and tribal name of Thracians was probably related to proto-Slavic people....

I2a-Din spread along Danube, so it was probably present in northern Thracians, such as Triballi...regarding attempts to equate Serbs with Triballians... i can accept Triballi being perhaps of Serian stock...hence, Serb or Serian is a race name, Triballians is one of tribe names that might correspond to Terbunions - Serb tribe that settled south east Herzegovina...
http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&dq=de administrando imperio&pg=PA163#v=onepage&q&f=false

How yes now
I am not talking about the end of the names,
I am talking about the root

as you see the word for whit is pelekas, which root root is better or suitable? the Greek Leykos the Bulgarian Bjalo or the english word? pale (to fade)
the ending is nothing Celts (Galates) Brygians (Thracans) and Greeks have same ending, but they are another linguistic family also,

from names of Thracian Kings Cities toponyms rivers etc we do not find a language that belong to Slavic family,
Neither to another family, that is what I want to tell,
Yes I agree that Greeks might gave a little Greek colour to the word
like Lelu (flower) become loulou(di) or lian(e) ljan(e) bekome lian-os

As also Slavs may adopted Thracian vocabulary,
as also if the case of -dva is correct shows a baltic, etc,
but words like Zalmoxis reminds not Greek zeus but Germanic Ziu(l)
and many others as I described,
the identification Thracian = Slavic is wrong that is what I am trying to say,
and if Sparkey is correct and I2a2 Din is imported, then my thesis is stronger.
Orfeas orpheus might cognates with Greek word Αρπεας (music instrument player, the harp player) etc
the most possible is that Thracian were a missing link of moden IE language that work as a bridge among Greek and Northern IE and among Germanic and Slavic languages,

about romb as geometrical remember that ρομβος is wriiten in Eykleidian geometry and is considered ancient
bur romph or romf Ρομφαια is the sword in thracian
the similar greek is machaira μαχαιρα mac+airo (μαχ+αιρω= sword-raise or battle -raise)
the word for battle in Greek is machi μαχη, and the fighter μαχομενος,
i don't see connection of romfaia with rombos
i think rombos is connected with Greek virb and word ρεμβη - ρεμβαζω (i am lost due to drink, or i am fixed !!! etc, cause it looks like that is a drunken square,) with romphaia might cognates with airo αιρω (raise) as in machaira
or better with word ρωμη (mighty power strenght)
compare rome and Ρωμη
the case greeks write Τhracian ρομφαια with ai and not ε can also mean something but i can not explain, cause I do not know if Romphaia is one or 2 words (ρομ+φαια or romfaia)
but in case of rom+faia means something like 'Grey power' !!!
although I do not testify the last cause it can be connected with je Fais or je vais like kalafat-is (architecture) (fais->fat)
and romphaia means, I make the power, the way of power etc
but the last consider them as not certain

a good example to understand that is Romans and Roma
Romans after Rome in Greek means the mighty ones after ρωμη
which in Nova Rome become Rum (Rumania Rum-lar in Turkey)
Roma is after the virb roam roma means roamer,
Greek αθιγγανω -> Latin Francais ciganni gitanes->τσιγγανοι
and has nothing to do with cingue-ari (5th legion) which is a special case,

the word Κτισται or Chtiste is strange case cause if the extract noun is ktirio Chtirio Greek stereo then we might have an aspiration of χ ανδ Σ (ch-h and S)
the word Κραββατος as root cognates with Balto-Slavic word for riverbed

As you see we can not talk about a Slavic Dialect when we are speaking about Thracian

the case of Bolinthros, nop may aristotle used the aspiraton correct
Bolin-thros fits well with IE languages compare endings in -nder
the aspiration in Greek in bilindros not -thros (δρος - θρος) and in rest western language goes -nder compare alexandros and alexander

PS the ending in -os -as -is is not only Greek, search the Celtic languages and Baltic also
just look at the names of Batic ending in -onis -as and Celtic words like talos omnos lindos inis

 

[GloomyGonzales]

5. brynchós ‘guitar for the Thracians’ (Hesych.). The word is related to the Pol. brzek ‘a ringing, a tinkle’, Ukr. brjak ‘a ringing, a sound’.

Rus.: brenchat’ (рус.: бренчать) means to make monotones metallic sound
Rus.: brenchat’ na gitare (рус.: бренчать на гитаре) means to play guitar

6. brytos (masc.), bryton (neuter) ‘a kind of ale from barley, a beer’ (Archil. Hecat. and others), brutos (Hesych.), bryttion (Herodian.). The word was used by the Thracians, the Peonians and the Phrygians. It is related to the Anglo-Saxon brod, Old-HighGerman prod ‘broth’.

Rus.: brodit’ (рус. бродить) means to undergo fermentation,Rus.: brozhenie (рус. брожение) means fermentation

Rus.: braga (рус. брага) means alcoholic drink made by fermentation (brozhenie)

8. génton ‘meat’ (Eust. ad Odyss. XIX 28 p. 1854; ad II. XII 25; Herodian., Suid., Hesych.) from the IE *ghen-to- ‘stabbed, cut’, Old-Ind. hata’- ‘hit, killed’.

Old Slavic: govyado means beef

Rus.: govyadina (рус. говядина) means beef

11. ktístai ‘Thracians, living in celibacy; monks’ (Strab.). There is no convincing etymology.

Rus.: chistyi (рус.: чистый) (and similar words in other Slavic languages) means clear, pure, vestal, unspotted.

12. midne ‘village’, initially ‘a place of stay’. The word occurs in the Latin inscription from Rome, which speaks about a citizen of the province of Thracia and adds: Midne Potelense, stating in this way his place of origin(CIL, VI, Nr. 32567-2819). The publisher of the inscription proposed that this was the Thracian word for the Latin vicus ‘village’, which is very probable. There is an exact correspondence with the Latv. mitne ‘a place of stay, a dwelling, a shelter’ from the older *mutin.

Rus.: mesto (рус.: место) (and similar words in other Slavic languages) means place, position, space.

Rus.: mestnyi (рус.: местный) local resident, somebody living in local village or town.

13. póltyn ‘a board fence, a board tower, a fortification of beams and boards’ (Etym. M.), from the IE *(s)p-tu--, compare with the Old-Icel. spjald (<*spel-to-s) ‘a board’, Anglo-Saxon speld ‘wood, log’, German spalten ‘to chop, to splinter’. The word is regarded as being Thracian because it is an element of the village name Poltym-bria, which is among the indisputably Thracian names ending on -bria.

Rus.: pleten’ (рус. плетень) means fence made of beams and boards.

14. rhompháia ‘a spear’, later ‘a sword’ (Plut. Aem. Paul. 18; Eust. ad II. VI 166; Hesych.). Other forms of the word are rumpia (Liv., Gell., Ascon. ad Mil.), romphea (Isid. Etym.), romphaea vel romfea (CGL 7, 212). W. Tomaschek listed the Bulg. roféja, rufja ‘a thunderbolt’ and the Alb. rrufë as derivatives of that word. It was also preserved in modern Greek as rhomphaia ‘a big broad sword’. The Thracian rhomphaia contains the IE stem *rump- in the Latin rumpo, -ere ‘to break, to tear’.

Rus.: rubit’ (рус. рубить) means to chop, to cut.

15. skálm ‘a knife, a sword’ (Soph. y Pollux 10, 165; Marcus Anton., Hesych., Phot. Lex.). A. Fick compared this word with the Old-Icel. skolm ‘a short sword, a knife’ from the IE *skolm, a derivative from the IE stem *skel- ‘to cut’.

Rus.: kolot’ (eng.: to stab, to stick), rus.: zakolot’ (eng.: to stab to death), rus.: skolot’ (eng.: to carve off or to cut off a peace from something)

 

[GloomyGonzales]

How yes now
I am not talking about the end of the names,
I am talking about the root
as you see the word for whit is pelekas, which root root is better or suitable? the Greek Leykos the Bulgarian Bjalo or the english word? pale (to fade)

Rus.: bleklyi (рус.: блеклый) means pale, faded
Rus.: belyak (рус.: беляк) means somebody of white colour (e.g. rus. zayats belyak (заяц беляк) means mountain hare)
Rus.: belok (рус.: белок) - transparent substance of egg that gets white when heated.
As you can see the best choise is Slavic languages while the Greek in fact is useless since Greeks are not original IE people.

 

[Taranis]

Sorry, Gonzales, but your proposed etymologies have just superficial similarities.

To pick an example: "genton" vs. "govadina". The etymology from PIE *ghen-to- is much more sensible.

Besides, what's your point here, anyways? That Thracian was a Slavic language and that the Slavs were native to the Balkans since Antiquity? That's completely denying basically everything that we know else about the history of the Slavic languages.

As you can see the best choise is Slavic languages while the Greek in fact is useless since Greeks are not original IE people.

In my opinion, the Baltic languages are a better choice, but that may be misleading because Thracian clearly wasn't a Balto-Slavic language (it was a Satem language, yes, but that also applies to Albanian, Armenian and the Indo-Iranic languages). Also, Greek is obviously a banch of the Indo-European languages as much as the Slavic languages are.

 

[how yes no 3]

...

hm, good posts... some words are nice match, some are not... anyway, it inspired me to find matches i didnot manage to find previously...

to summarize:

there are 23 words in total that are recorded as thracian words... the rest is just guessing e.g. based on guessing the meaning of river names, town names...

1. asa ‘colt’s foot (Tussilago farfara)’. That was its Bessian name according to Dioskurides.

its about this plant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tussilago_farfara
i do not even know about this plant or its name in Serbian... i had to look on wikipedia to find out it is "podbel"
...if someone asked me to name it I would say it looks like "maslačak"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taraxacum
, knowing that -čak is common ending for small plants and animals (e.g. različak, cvrčak, čičak..) root word would be masla
which would to non speaker of the language such as Dioskurides easily sound like "asa"

2. bólinthos ‘wild bull, bison’. The word is attested in Aristotle, according to whom that animal lived in the Messapian mountain, which separated the country of the Peonians from that of the Maideans (a Thracian tribe inhabiting the middle course of Struma and upper course of Mesta), and that the Peonians called it mónapos. Therefore, bolinthos was a Maidean, that is, a Thracian word. It is compared to the German Bulle ‘bull’ and is derived from the IE *bhn-ent.

first one should discard greek ending that was likely added by Aristotle...
so it is not bolinthos, but bolin

PIE word
vol = ox in serbian
volina would be to tell person he is ox - rude, crude, harsh, stupid...

3. bria ‘town’ (Strab.; Steph. Byz. under the word of Messembria). Both authors state the word was Thracian. It is often found as a second component of Thracian settlement names, for example: Messembria, Poltymbria, Slymbria, Skedabria, etc. The Thracian ‘bria’ is related to the Toch. A ri, B riye ‘town (a refuge on a hill)’ – from the IE *ri.

-ija is typical Slavic ending for place names and area names....
Holandija, Austrija, Srbija, Rusija, Belorusija...

4. briza ‘spelt, rye’ (Gal. de alim. facult. 1, 13/6 p. 514. Kühn). The author (Galen) saw this plant in Thracia and in Macedonia and concluded the word was Thracian. It is very probable.

PIE
rye in english
raž in slavic languages

5. brynchós ‘guitar for the Thracians’ (Hesych.). The word is related to the Pol. brzek ‘a ringing, a tinkle’, Ukr. brjak ‘a ringing, a sound’.

serbo-croat brundati = to talk/make noise with low frequency sounds ..
e.g. the noise that a car engine makes


maybe it was about bass guitar


Rus.: brenchat’ (рус.: бренчать) means to make monotones metallic sound
Rus.: brenchat’ na gitare (рус.: бренчать на гитаре) means to play guitar

6. brytos (masc.), bryton (neuter) ‘a kind of ale from barley, a beer’ (Archil. Hecat. and others), brutos (Hesych.), bryttion (Herodian.). The word was used by the Thracians, the Peonians and the Phrygians. It is related to the Anglo-Saxon brod, Old-HighGerman prod ‘broth’.

Rus.: brodit’ (рус. бродить) means to undergo fermentation,Rus.: brozhenie (рус. брожение) means fermentation

Rus.: braga (рус. брага) means alcoholic drink made by fermentation (brozhenie)

7. dinupula (sinupyla) ‘wild pumpkin’ (Pseudoap.). Opposite to the Dacian name of this plant kinuboila (Dioskur.) Pseudoapuleus noted that the Besses call it dinupula or sinupyla, the latter reconstructed from the text “Bessi nupyla” instead of “Bessi (si)nupyla”. Both names originate from the IE *k’un-bol, literally ‘dog’s apple’, which leads to the identical Lith. ùn-obuolas with the same meaning.

dinja in serbo-croat, probably same in other Slavic

8. génton ‘meat’ (Eust. ad Odyss. XIX 28 p. 1854; ad II. XII 25; Herodian., Suid., Hesych.) from the IE *ghen-to- ‘stabbed, cut’, Old-Ind. hata’- ‘hit, killed’.

9. kalamíndar ‘plane-tree’ for the Thracian tribe of Edoni (Hesych.). Of unclear etymology.

what?

10. kemos ‘a kind of fruit with follicles’ (Phot. Lex.). Not interpreted.

in fact this was perhaps about traditional food made of fruits
the person without preknowledge of this food and procedure in which it is made, might describe the boiling fluid as something with follicles.


PIE
englis jam
south slavic džem

11. ktístai ‘Thracians, living in celibacy; monks’ (Strab.). There is no convincing etymology.

Rus.: chistyi (рус.: чистый) (and similar words in other Slavic languages) means clear, pure, vestal, unspotted.

serbo-croat: čisti

alternatively:
-sta is common ending when classifying a group of people playing certain role, doing certain work...


e.g. karatista = person with karate skills, statista = person that plays side role in a movie, scenarista = person that writes movie scripts....


if -sta is common ending for person belonging to a wider group, than kti- is about celibacy


kći = daughter


ktistai could be coin word: kći (daughter) + (po)stati (to become)

12. midne ‘village’, initially ‘a place of stay’. The word occurs in the Latin inscription from Rome, which speaks about a citizen of the province of Thracia and adds: Midne Potelense, stating in this way his place of origin (CIL, VI, Nr. 32567-2819). The publisher of the inscription proposed that this was the Thracian word for the Latin vicus ‘village’, which is very probable. There is an exact correspondence with the Latv. mitne ‘a place of stay, a dwelling, a shelter’ from the older *mutin.

PIE

village is extrapolation of meaning... it was word used to describe area from which someone was...

PIE


serbo-croat medju (among, between)- when describing a place roughly being in some area


also
english middle. median

13. póltyn ‘a board fence, a board tower, a fortification of beams and boards’ (Etym. M.), from the IE *(s)p-tu--, compare with the Old-Icel. spjald (<*spel-to-s) ‘a board’, Anglo-Saxon speld ‘wood, log’, German spalten ‘to chop, to splinter’. The word is regarded as being Thracian because it is an element of the village name Poltym-bria, which is among the indisputably Thracian names ending on -bria.

serbo-croat plot - fence made of wood
Rus.: pleten’ (рус. плетень) means fence made of beams and boards.

14. rhompháia ‘a spear’, later ‘a sword’ (Plut. Aem. Paul. 18; Eust. ad II. VI 166; Hesych.). Other forms of the word are rumpia (Liv., Gell., Ascon. ad Mil.), romphea (Isid. Etym.), romphaea vel romfea (CGL 7, 212). W. Tomaschek listed the Bulg. roféja, rufja ‘a thunderbolt’ and the Alb. rrufë as derivatives of that word. It was also preserved in modern Greek as rhomphaia ‘a big broad sword’. The Thracian rhomphaia contains the IE stem *rump- in the Latin rumpo, -ere ‘to break, to tear’.

PIE


romb = geometrical figure that looks like spear
english rhomb, rhombus


Rus.: rubit’ (рус. рубить) means to chop, to cut.

15. skálm ‘a knife, a sword’ (Soph. y Pollux 10, 165; Marcus Anton., Hesych., Phot. Lex.). A. Fick compared this word with the Old-Icel. skolm ‘a short sword, a knife’ from the IE *skolm, a derivative from the IE stem *skel- ‘to cut’.

PIE
slavic skalpel
english scalpel

Rus.: kolot’ (eng.: to stab, to stick), rus.: zakolot’ (eng.: to stab to death), rus.: skolot’ (eng.: to carve off or to cut off a peace from something)

serbo-croat: zaklati = to cut throat
kama = knife often mentioned in relation to cutting throat...typically as used by ustashe (ww2 nazi army of Croats) to kill civilians of Serb origin

16. skárke ‘a silver coin for the Thracians’ (Hesych., Phot. Lex.) A. Fick explains it as ‘a jingling coin’ from the IE *skerg- ‘to jingle’, compare the Old-Norse skark ‘a noise’, Old-Ind. kharjati ‘to creak, to crunch’ from the IE *skoeg-.

škrinja - croatian for box in which treasure is kept (english 'chest')

17. spínos ‘a stone which burns when water is poured on it’ (Arist.). There are no interpretations.

PIE


slavic 'sapun' = english 'soap'

18. torélle ‘a refrain of lament, mourn (song)’ (Hesych.). There is no acceptable etymology.

19. zalmós ‘a hide’ (Porphyr.). It is related to the Old-Pruss. salmis ‘helm’, the Lith. sálmas;

PIE
slavic 'šlem' = english 'helmet'

20. zeirá, zirá ‘a type of upper garment’ (Hdt., Xen., Hesych.). There are no acceptable etymologies.

slavic 'zar' = english 'veil'
note that this was often made of silk that was in ancient times produced by serians from Serica

21. zelâs ‘wine’ (Choerob. 124, 11 Gaisf.), zlas (Cobeti excerpt e cod. Marc. 489), zeilá (Phot. Lex.), zílai (Hesych.). As related to it are given the Greek chális ‘pure (not watered down) wine’, the Mac. kálithos ‘wine’ (Hesych.), the Old-Ind. hla ‘brandy’. The Thracian zelâs can be also compared to the Lith. alas ‘red (for cattle)’, the Latv. zals ‘bright red, brown’, the Bret. gell ‘reddish, brown’, all from the IE *g’hel- ‘to shine’. Thus for the Thracians the wine got his name from its red colour.

22. zetráia ‘a pot’ (Pollux). From the initial form *zeutraia from the IE *g’heutr- towards the IE stem *g’heu- ‘to pour’.

23. zibythides ‘the noble Thracian men and women’ (Hesych.).
A. Fick explains it as a Grecized form from the Lith. ibeti (ibù) ‘to shine, to light’. He interpreted it as a participle meaning ‘splendidus, illustris, erlaucht’
and wrote it in the form zibynthides, which actually did not exist.
Apart from the Greek ending -id-(es), the initial word zibut- has an exact parallel in the Lith. ibute ‘a fire, light’ and ‘something light’.
But Fick was right translating the Thracian word as ‘most holy one’.

serbo-croat šibice = matches

Besides, what's your point here, anyways? That Thracian was a Slavic language and that the Slavs were native to the Balkans since Antiquity? That's completely denying basically everything that we know else about the history of the Slavic languages.

that is possible....
but point is that Thracians were originally PIE satem speakers with probably dominant R1a..

In my opinion, the Baltic languages are a better choice, but that may be misleading because Thracian clearly wasn't a Balto-Slavic language (it was a Satem language, yes, but that also applies to Albanian, Armenian and the Indo-Iranic languages). Also, Greek is obviously a banch of the Indo-European languages as much as the Slavic languages are.

could be, we should check those 23 words in Baltic languages...
Baltic languages are more or less old Balto-Slavic, right?
and that is perhaps language of R1a before being more influenced by I2a-din

 

[GloomyGonzales]

21. zelâs ‘wine’ (Choerob. 124, 11 Gaisf.), zlas (Cobeti excerpt e cod. Marc. 489), zeilá (Phot. Lex.), zílai (Hesych.). As related to it are given the Greek chális ‘pure (not watered down) wine’, the Mac. kálithos ‘wine’ (Hesych.), the Old-Ind. hla ‘brandy’. The Thracian zelâs can be also compared to the Lith. alas ‘red (for cattle)’, the Latv. zals ‘bright red, brown’, the Bret. gell ‘reddish, brown’, all from the IE *g’hel- ‘to shine’. Thus for the Thracians the wine got his name from its red colour.


Rus.: Zel’e(рус. зелье) means alcoholic drink, sometimes it means magic potion.


22. zetráia ‘a pot’ (Pollux). From the initial form *zeutraia from the IE *g’heutr- towards the IE stem *g’heu- ‘to pour’.

Ukr.: makitra - a clay bowl with a rough surface

23. zibythides ‘the noble Thracian men and women’ (Hesych.).
A. Fick explains it as a Grecized form from the Lith. ibeti (ibù) ‘to shine, to light’. He interpreted it as a participle meaning ‘splendidus, illustris, erlaucht’
and wrote it in the form zibynthides, which actually did not exist.
Apart from the Greek ending -id-(es), the initial word zibut- has an exact parallel in the Lith. ibute ‘a fire, light’ and ‘something light’.
But Fick was right translating the Thracian word as ‘most holy one’.


Rus.: svetit’ or svetit’sya (рус. светить или светиться) means to shine, to illuminate.
Rus.: vasha svetlost’ or svetleishii ’(рус. Ваша светлость means your brightness, светлейший means the Brightest) - titles used by common people when they addressed noble people.

 

[how yes no 3]

...post about Scirii/Hirri was mistakenly moved to thracian thread..
I will post it again to original thread...this entry can be deleted...

 

[Yetos]

Rus.: bleklyi (рус.: блеклый) means pale, faded
Rus.: belyak (рус.: беляк) means somebody of white colour (e.g. rus. zayats belyak (заяц беляк) means mountain hare)
Rus.: belok (рус.: белок) - transparent substance of egg that gets white when heated.
As you can see the best choise is Slavic languages while the Greek in fact is useless since Greeks are not original IE people.

Gonzales

for 2 hours i was writting about Duridanov's post



I will re-write and post it

the answer is from the post

http://www.kroraina.com/thrac_lang/thrac_3.html

which is not correct and hides many

like the word kalamos (straw) which is Greek word and its Thracian is kalamindar,
I am tired of Panslavism
and I will write down all the page explaining what you did not post

W. Tomaschek (Die Alten Thraker, II, 1, p. 15), who included it among the Thracian words, remarked that it reached the Byzantines from Iranian via Armenian.

what Slavic? What Scythian?

 

[Yetos]

21. zelâs ‘wine’ (Choerob. 124, 11 Gaisf.), zlas (Cobeti excerpt e cod. Marc. 489), zeilá (Phot. Lex.), zílai (Hesych.). As related to it are given the Greek chális ‘pure (not watered down) wine’, the Mac. kálithos ‘wine’ (Hesych.), the Old-Ind. hla ‘brandy’. The Thracian zelâs can be also compared to the Lith. alas ‘red (for cattle)’, the Latv. zals ‘bright red, brown’, the Bret. gell ‘reddish, brown’, all from the IE *g’hel- ‘to shine’. Thus for the Thracians the wine got his name from its red colour.


Rus.: Zel’e(рус. зелье) means alcoholic drink, sometimes it means magic potion.


22. zetráia ‘a pot’ (Pollux). From the initial form *zeutraia from the IE *g’heutr- towards the IE stem *g’heu- ‘to pour’.

Ukr.: makitra - a clay bowl with a rough surface

23. zibythides ‘the noble Thracian men and women’ (Hesych.).
A. Fick explains it as a Grecized form from the Lith. ibeti (ibù) ‘to shine, to light’. He interpreted it as a participle meaning ‘splendidus, illustris, erlaucht’
and wrote it in the form zibynthides, which actually did not exist.
Apart from the Greek ending -id-(es), the initial word zibut- has an exact parallel in the Lith. ibute ‘a fire, light’ and ‘something light’.
But Fick was right translating the Thracian word as ‘most holy one’.


Rus.: svetit’ or svetit’sya (рус. светить или светиться) means to shine, to illuminate.
Rus.: vasha svetlost’ or svetleishii ’(рус. Ваша светлость means your brightness, светлейший means the Brightest) - titles used by common people when they addressed noble people.

you gone enough

zeutraia

compare Greek χυτρα chytra from virb χεω (to pour) ->Χευτρεα -χυτρα

want more ?

9. kalamíndar ‘plane-tree’ for the Thracian tribe of Edoni (Hesych.). Of unclear etymology.

what Unclear?
because does not fit to you?

search the word kalamos

http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Κάλαμος

list of towns with word kalamos

http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Κάλαμος_(μυθολογία)

the person kalamos

the Plant kalamos

What uncertain origin?

more tomorrow

23 words 23 mistakes to make thracian a slavic language

 

[Yetos]

21. zelâs ‘wine’ (Choerob. 124, 11 Gaisf.), zlas (Cobeti excerpt e cod. Marc. 489), zeilá (Phot. Lex.), zílai (Hesych.). As related to it are given the Greek chális ‘pure (not watered down) wine’, the Mac. kálithos ‘wine’ (Hesych.), the Old-Ind. hla ‘brandy’. The Thracian zelâs can be also compared to the Lith. alas ‘red (for cattle)’, the Latv. zals ‘bright red, brown’, the Bret. gell ‘reddish, brown’, all from the IE *g’hel- ‘to shine’. Thus for the Thracians the wine got his name from its red colour.


Rus.: Zel’e(рус. зелье) means alcoholic drink, sometimes it means magic potion.


22. zetráia ‘a pot’ (Pollux). From the initial form *zeutraia from the IE *g’heutr- towards the IE stem *g’heu- ‘to pour’.

Ukr.: makitra - a clay bowl with a rough surface

23. zibythides ‘the noble Thracian men and women’ (Hesych.).
A. Fick explains it as a Grecized form from the Lith. ibeti (ibù) ‘to shine, to light’. He interpreted it as a participle meaning ‘splendidus, illustris, erlaucht’
and wrote it in the form zibynthides, which actually did not exist.
Apart from the Greek ending -id-(es), the initial word zibut- has an exact parallel in the Lith. ibute ‘a fire, light’ and ‘something light’.
But Fick was right translating the Thracian word as ‘most holy one’.


Rus.: svetit’ or svetit’sya (рус. светить или светиться) means to shine, to illuminate.
Rus.: vasha svetlost’ or svetleishii ’(рус. Ваша светлость means your brightness, светлейший means the Brightest) - titles used by common people when they addressed noble people.

Simply if you know Thracian language then explain the words

Καβηροι Kaviri kabeirii
συπυθειοι sipitheioi sypytheioi

 

[how yes no 3]

9. kalamíndar ‘plane-tree’ for the Thracian tribe of Edoni (Hesych.). Of unclear etymology.

what Unclear?
because does not fit to you?

search the word kalamos

http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Κάλαμος

list of towns with word kalamos

http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Κάλαμος_(μυθολογία)

the person kalamos

the Plant kalamos

What uncertain origin?

more tomorrow

23 words 23 mistakes to make thracian a slavic language

sorry, but most of your propositions are very far from words in meaning...

why is it hard to accept that Thracians were satem speaking PIE people with dominant R1a and that due to that their language shares more similarities with Balto-Slavic than with Greek?

btw. kalamos is grass, kalaminder is tree... i don't know how high you are, but grass and tree are not the same....
the word is said to be specific for single thrachian tribe...we do not even know whether it was shared by other thracians...

Simply if you know Thracian language then explain the words

Καβηροι Kaviri kabeirii
συπυθειοι sipitheioi sypytheioi

i think these are 3 different transcriptions of 2 words, first one being tribal name....second one perhaps also tribal name...tribal names are typically old and do not have immediately observable translations...

where does this come from? if you give a context, a meaning that is known, we can find matching words if any...otherwise it is pointless because words need to match in both meaning and form... but these are not among the 23 words for which meaning is known, hence you have your interpretation and want us to guess it, which is silly way of thinking....one can only compare words whose meaning is really known...

 

[zanipolo]

A very strange thing that greek language have in common with serbo-croatian,bulgarian and macedonian language and no other indo-european language have this:
the presence and usage of aorist mode for verbs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aorist
I think this is a clear inheritance from thracian language.
Ok is present also in french language,but there is from another source,think is old proto-indo-european.

How can you explain that first constitution that was given in Serbia in 1219 was based on Roman law and this constitution was used also in Romania and in Bulgaria and in Rusia?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakonopravilo

How it can be explained that serbian and bulgarian kings are calling themselves Tzar/Tsar which comes from latin Cezar while ancient romanians where calling Constantinopole Tzarigrad?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar


Did you noticed that are words in serbo-croatian very closed with latin,that are in common use as the word for mouse - latin mus serbo-croatian miš sure are others also.
From which most strange is how you call in romanian tata,serbo-croatian tata and bulgarian tate (seems bashta is most used in bulgarian) which is common with latin - tata italian language do not have this word anymore!
Since this is a word very often used.
http://translate.google.ro/?hl=ro&tab=wT#la|en|tata
http://translate.google.ro/?hl=ro&tab=wT#ro|en|tata
http://translate.google.ro/?hl=ro&tab=wT#hr|en|tata


Eyes,another word very used,have in serbo-croatian oči,romanian ochi bulgarian очи (ochi written in latin alphabet) latin oculus and ...italian occhi so almost same word in romanian,italian and bulgarian serbo-croatian (forgot to add pronounciation for romanian and italian is same bulgarian rather same with serbo-croatian,you do not hear the h pronounced in serbo-croatian and bulgarian).
On another thread here (that with albanian language) was told about a common word from old romanian serbo-croatian and sardignian and sardignian is very close to latin also.

i did know that certain serbo-croat words are close to latin, it ONLY indicates that when the romans subjugated these area, the people there...illyrians, thracians, greeks etc, learnt these words because they had no such words in there vocabulary.
In regards to trying to match it with Italian..forget it as Italian was only created in the 13th century from the regional languages in itlay which spoke Vulgar latin languages.
The people would have learnt Latin and Not italian

 

[Yetos]

A very strange thing that greek language have in common with serbo-croatian,bulgarian and macedonian language and no other indo-european language have this:
the presence and usage of aorist mode for verbs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aorist
I think this is a clear inheritance from thracian language.
Ok is present also in french language,but there is from another source,think is old proto-indo-european.

How can you explain that first constitution that was given in Serbia in 1219 was based on Roman law and this constitution was used also in Romania and in Bulgaria and in Rusia?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakonopravilo

How it can be explained that serbian and bulgarian kings are calling themselves Tzar/Tsar which comes from latin Cezar while ancient romanians where calling Constantinopole Tzarigrad?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar


Did you noticed that are words in serbo-croatian very closed with latin,that are in common use as the word for mouse - latin mus serbo-croatian miš sure are others also.
From which most strange is how you call in romanian tata,serbo-croatian tata and bulgarian tate (seems bashta is most used in bulgarian) which is common with latin - tata italian language do not have this word anymore!
Since this is a word very often used.
http://translate.google.ro/?hl=ro&tab=wT#la|en|tata
http://translate.google.ro/?hl=ro&tab=wT#ro|en|tata
http://translate.google.ro/?hl=ro&tab=wT#hr|en|tata


Eyes,another word very used,have in serbo-croatian oči,romanian ochi bulgarian очи (ochi written in latin alphabet) latin oculus and ...italian occhi so almost same word in romanian,italian and bulgarian serbo-croatian (forgot to add pronounciation for romanian and italian is same bulgarian rather same with serbo-croatian,you do not hear the h pronounced in serbo-croatian and bulgarian).
On another thread here (that with albanian language) was told about a common word from old romanian serbo-croatian and sardignian and sardignian is very close to latin also.

It Depends with wich Greek Language and which Era you Speak about,

Greek of Homer is more Greco-Aryan a LPIE language, that is most relative with Armenian Avestan and Sanshqrit than the rest European languages
Mycenean is Strange language having also connection with Anatolian and Latin-Celtic

later forms show more European and Centum forms until Hellenistic II (Koine 2) Alexandreia of 1rst Century which seems to have enough Thracian,

After Byzantine Greek language seems to be a mix of Latin Thracian and Greek

MODERN Greek is the Thracian Idiom, the Con/polis Dialect of 1850-1920, that is Stabilized at 1955 and start to be in Schools after 1976.
It is mostly a mix of LATIN THRACIAN TURKISH with Sounds that suits to Greek ear and in Makedonia exist Slavic elements (Due to Dusan Symeon etc) as also in central Greece some Arbanitan (after 4 crusade)
(port - Πορτα, παζαρι baazar, λουλουδι - Lellu (lilly))

Besides all IE languages are connected each other.

 

[how yes no 3]

It Depends with wich Greek Language and which Era you Speak about,

Greek of Homer is more Greco-Aryan a LPIE language, that is most relative with Armenian Avestan and Sanshqrit than the rest European languages

Slavic languages are closer to sanskrit than latin, modern greek, germanic and romanesce languages...

your statement reminds me on Roberto Salinas Price mexican philologist claiming that Homer's work was originally made in a language alike Slavic.. in fact he sets Troy in Herzegovina and has numerous explanations of how that location fits much better with local relief, language and customs described or mentioned in Homer's work....if he would be right, that could mean that I2a-din is for long time in west Balkan and speaking the same language as today...

 

[Gosh]

Did you noticed that are words in serbo-croatian very closed with latin,that are in common use as the word for mouse - latin mus serbo-croatian miš sure are others also.
From which most strange is how you call in romanian tata,serbo-croatian tata and bulgarian tate (seems bashta is most used in bulgarian) which is common with latin - tata italian language do not have this word anymore!


Eyes,another word very used,have in serbo-croatian oči,romanian ochi bulgarian очи (ochi written in latin alphabet) latin oculus and ...italian occhi so almost same word in romanian,italian and bulgarian serbo-croatian (forgot to add pronounciation for romanian and italian is same bulgarian rather same with serbo-croatian,you do not hear the h pronounced in serbo-croatian and bulgarian).
On another thread here (that with albanian language) was told about a common word from old romanian serbo-croatian and sardignian and sardignian is very close to latin also.

I'll have to disappoint you this time. In Russian, word mouse is written almost on the same way as in serbo-croatian.
Word oči also existed in old Russian but it is mainly used today in poetry. Even more, father in Russian is "papa". Does it means that Russians have the same origins with French population? ))))

To shorten your story. All of these words are indoeuropean.

 

[Yetos]

Slavic languages are closer to sanskrit than latin, modern greek, germanic and romanesce languages...

your statement reminds me on Roberto Salinas Price mexican philologist claiming that Homer's work was originally made in a language alike Slavic.. in fact he sets Troy in Herzegovina and has numerous explanations of how that location fits much better with local relief, language and customs described or mentioned in Homer's work....if he would be right, that could mean that I2a-din is for long time in west Balkan and speaking the same language as today...

Panslavism strikes again

Homer a Slav????
Troy in Herzegovina???

nop you read it wrong the author say Troy in Azherbaijan :grin:
and Homer was Egyptian :grin:


by the way if I use your methods then Azherbaijan could means Herze(govina)+Bosnia

 

[zanipolo]

I'll have to disappoint you this time. In Russian, word mouse is written almost on the same way as in serbo-croatian.
Word oči also existed in old Russian but it is mainly used today in poetry. Even more, father in Russian is "papa". Does it means that Russians have the same origins with French population? ))))

To shorten your story. All of these words are indoeuropean.

aahh ........languages and words ............are they or do they indicte genetic tribes......no


ocio = eye
ocia = glance
oceo = watch out
ociar = glimpe
ocixar = peep
ociali = glasses

oco = goose


Change of letter = change of meaning , even within the same language

 

[MOESAN]

aahh ........languages and words ............are they or do they indicte genetic tribes......no


ocio = eye
ocia = glance
oceo = watch out
ociar = glimpe
ocixar = peep
ociali = glasses

oco = goose


Change of letter = change of meaning , even within the same language

it is not a random change of ONE letter: it is derivation - and the new meanings almost ALWAYS show a semantic link even loose - so differences between words indifferent languages don't prove difference of language origin, BUT likeness between words could (not 'can') prove some common origin of language - remain the problem, does correspond common origin of language with common ancient ethnic origin???

 

[zanipolo]

it is not a random change of ONE letter: it is derivation - and the new meanings almost ALWAYS show a semantic link even loose - so differences between words indifferent languages don't prove difference of language origin, BUT likeness between words could (not 'can') prove some common origin of language - remain the problem, does correspond common origin of language with common ancient ethnic origin???

Loans words can mean entirely different meaning to a neighbouring language. I can neither see similar words but different meanings being of any use either to linking. even in NEItaly, I was taught
Pare= father, mare =mother, mar = sea
yet in italian mare=sea
So, you see even next ot each other the same word means an entirely different meaning