(OFFTOPIC from rise of PIEs in the steppes)

kamani said:
If I2a-Din was Illyrian then it would be found all over celtic descendants (Germany, England, France, Spain). Illyrian and celtic tribes shared the land around north Croatia. Instead, what do the balkans and celts have in common? R1b. Trace R1b M269, that's where you will find the illyrians.
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Not only, J2 is also in areas of Gauls having good %, although still J2 is a mystery, at least for me.
 
I'm confused...R1a isn't the majority haplogroup of the Slavs?

On a side note-- I looked into the Dacian tribe and it looks to me like they were vast majority haplogroup I, including the leadership. All of the statue's that I found (incredible art work back then) showed heavily bearded, broader faced, large framed warrior types. They seemed fairly tall with wavy hair.
 
They reminded me off vikings almost.
 
I'm confused...R1a isn't the majority haplogroup of the Slavs?
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Yes, yet some people are trying to propagate the view that some Slavic tribes had haplogroup I majorities, which doesn't make any sense. When the R1a were spreading from the East, they were completely destroying the haplogroup I hunter-gatherers left and right. The only places where Cro-Magnons could have survived would have been either: a)isolated locations (such as Scandinavia) or b) places where they acquired farming technology which would have bolstered their numbers
 
"You simply need to get over it that I2a2-Din is a result of South Slavic migrations."

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around how that could possibly be a true statement. Please explain more fully how you arrived at that theory.
 
I totally agree Templar.

The only thing I've noticed about I and R1a is that at some point, haplogroup I seems to have "flipped" the power structure. Maybe it's because they learned warfare techniques (horse riding, bronze weaponry, etc.) from R1a and were physically better fighters (size advantages, more able to function in climate and surroundings--evolved in these lands for thousands of years). I don't think Dacian were ever a large percentage of R1a though.
 
nordicwarrior said:
I totally agree Templar.

The only thing I've noticed about I and R1a is that at some point, haplogroup I seems to have "flipped" the power structure. Maybe it's because they learned warfare techniques (horse riding, bronze weaponry, etc.) from R1a and were physically better fighters (size advantages, more able to function in climate and surroundings--evolved in these lands for thousands of years). I don't think Dacian were ever a large percentage of R1a though.
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It is funny that you should mention that. I read a small part of some 19th century book (only part available for free) and it mentioned how the arrival of Alpine-skulled people in Southern Germany coincided with the arrival of Indo-Europeans and Bronze weapons. But then he goes on to say that Nordic people then acquired that technology and used it against them, and eventually controlled a majority of Germany (and even Germanized many of these round-skulled people). I tried finding which book it was, and I even searched my history tab, but I couldn't find it.
 
nordicwarrior said:
I'm confused...R1a isn't the majority haplogroup of the Slavs?

On a side note-- I looked into the Dacian tribe and it looks to me like they were vast majority haplogroup I, including the leadership. All of the statue's that I found (incredible art work back then) showed heavily bearded, broader faced, large framed warrior types. They seemed fairly tall with wavy hair.
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yes that was my mistake too. I believed that Thracians were I2 Hg,

yes R1a is not a Slavic, although if you have R1a you have big chance to be Slav
 
You're right, sorry Yetos.
 
nordicwarrior said:
I'm confused...R1a isn't the majority haplogroup of the Slavs?
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Truth is that it is still an unsanswered question, as is the origin of the slavs in general. While slavs in the north mostly have R1a, in the balkans they seem to have much more I2a1b instead, while I2a1b is also present to a lesser extent among slavs in the north. On the other hand, in the north it seems more exclusively confined to slavic nations, whereas in the balkans it is frequent also in Romanians, Vlachs and some Albanians (all non-slavic peoples). At the same time, I2a1b closest brother is in British Isles and I2a1b older variant are found in east-central europe. Autosomally, north slavs are 3/4 North europeans, whereas south slavs are only approx. 1/3 North Europeans. Quite confusing situation.

EDIT: Just saw Yetos' remark too late that this is offtopic here, sorry.
 
you are right
 
ElHorsto said:
you are right
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this to me is the original ancient slav people ( not slavic )

Chernoles culture : The pre-Proto-Slavs were the bearers of the Chernoles culture (750–200 BCE) of northern Ukraine, and later the Zarubintsy culture (3rd century BCE to 1st century CE).

They where overrun by the scythians and antes and merged with them.
 
zanipolo said:
this to me is the original ancient slav people ( not slavic )

Chernoles culture : The pre-Proto-Slavs were the bearers of the Chernoles culture (750–200 BCE) of northern Ukraine, and later the Zarubintsy culture (3rd century BCE to 1st century CE).

They where overrun by the scythians and antes and merged with them.
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hmm

so closer to Baltic than Scythians or closer to Scythians?

my personal believes goes also there and more East, either to χαλυβες land either south of Greater Scythia, land of queen Tomaris

the 'white Serbia' of how yes no I think is a second home. if there was a white serbia then a yellow Serbia should exist
 
ElHorsto said:
Truth is that it is still an unsanswered question, as is the origin of the slavs in general. While slavs in the north mostly have R1a, in the balkans they seem to have much more I2a1b instead, while I2a1b is also present to a lesser extent among slavs in the north. On the other hand, in the north it seems more exclusively confined to slavic nations, whereas in the balkans it is frequent also in Romanians, Vlachs and some Albanians (all non-slavic peoples). At the same time, I2a1b closest brother is in British Isles and I2a1b older variant are found in east-central europe. Autosomally, north slavs are 3/4 North europeans, whereas south slavs are only approx. 1/3 North Europeans. Quite confusing situation. EDIT: Just saw Yetos' remark too late that this is offtopic here, sorry.
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I'm sometimes amazed by the very "unside" position of some forumers - old tribes did not change language and culture as we change skirt today but some mergins between two different populations had underwent progressive language change according to economic and politic power of one of the antagonists - crossings occurred and not only by the mating of foreign women - I' have not every SNPs distrivution by ancient ethnic groups and even in modern populations - I put my brain at work and I see a very sensible possibility of Y-I2a1(b) occupying central Europe for a long time (Paleolithic): surely enough between Moravia ha Carpathians, Balkans - the farming cultures send by Near-eastern and anatolian peoples were surely adopted by some Y-I2a of Balkans-Carpathians and we have seen great civilisations, advances and powerful enough, growing between E-Balkans and Ukraina at Eneolithic and then Bronze Age (Bulgaria, Romania, Tripolje and extensions: so what is so surprising that a predominently population of Y-I2a1(b) mixed with steppic Y-R1a bearers??? What is so surprising? according to the regions, the density of Y-I2 could have varied? I believe proto-Slavs developped around Ukraina, in contact with Baltic People, (and others after) and that they absorbed a lot of Y-I2a, even if Y-R1a was still the predominent HG - these I2a1 knew maybe a baby boom during their eneolithical period, encreasing in number but not in within diversity - when Slavs, lately enough (historical times) invaded the Balkans, they send "their" Y-I2a1 thay mixed with ancient cousins stayed there since the preneolithicial times (these last ones was numerous enough but too more variated??? How to be too affirmative?
 
MOESAN said:
I'm sometimes amazed by the very "unside" position of some forumers - old tribes did not change language and culture as we change skirt today but some mergins between two different populations had underwent progressive language change according to economic and politic power of one of the antagonists - crossings occurred and not only by the mating of foreign women - I' have not every SNPs distrivution by ancient ethnic groups and even in modern populations - I put my brain at work and I see a very sensible possibility of Y-I2a1(b) occupying central Europe for a long time (Paleolithic): surely enough between Moravia ha Carpathians, Balkans - the farming cultures send by Near-eastern and anatolian peoples were surely adopted by some Y-I2a of Balkans-Carpathians and we have seen great civilisations, advances and powerful enough, growing between E-Balkans and Ukraina at Eneolithic and then Bronze Age (Bulgaria, Romania, Tripolje and extensions: so what is so surprising that a predominently population of Y-I2a1(b) mixed with steppic Y-R1a bearers??? What is so surprising? according to the regions, the density of Y-I2 could have varied? I believe proto-Slavs developped around Ukraina, in contact with Baltic People, (and others after) and that they absorbed a lot of Y-I2a, even if Y-R1a was still the predominent HG - these I2a1 knew maybe a baby boom during their eneolithical period, encreasing in number but not in within diversity - when Slavs, lately enough (historical times) invaded the Balkans, they send "their" Y-I2a1 thay mixed with ancient cousins stayed there since the preneolithicial times (these last ones was numerous enough but too more variated??? How to be too affirmative?
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to backup your statement you need to cover what the Y HGs where originally before the I2a1 arrived, like the balkans, I can accept your theory for central europe for I2a1, but it was brought into the balkans by the illyrians and not the slavs
 
zanipolo said:
to backup your statement you need to cover what the Y HGs where originally before the I2a1 arrived, like the balkans, I can accept your theory for central europe for I2a1, but it was brought into the balkans by the illyrians and not the slavs
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I wrote I think Y-I2a1 ancestors was already in Europe for a long time, and never did affirm I could precise what tribes or ethnies send this HG in W-Balkans - perhaps some of them was in W-Balkans at Paleolithical times and perhaps some other came there with Illyrians at protohistorical times - my purpose was to try to explain that a LOT of the Y-I2a1b of the present day Balkans, even in West, can have came there mixed with other HGs under a 'slavic' banner - without any agenda, you know - beforehand I spoke of Moravia and Carpathians because there were the more dense settlements in Eastern Europe during Paleolithic , compared to W-Balkans... for Illyrians, I suppose they countained more than a dominant HG? without being sure... I should bet for a dominant Y-R1a about them; I see no certainty for now
 
MOESAN said:
I wrote I think Y-I2a1 ancestors was already in Europe for a long time, and never did affirm I could precise what tribes or ethnies send this HG in W-Balkans - perhaps some of them was in W-Balkans at Paleolithical times and perhaps some other came there with Illyrians at protohistorical times - my purpose was to try to explain that a LOT of the Y-I2a1b of the present day Balkans, even in West, can have came there mixed with other HGs under a 'slavic' banner - without any agenda, you know - beforehand I spoke of Moravia and Carpathians because there were the more dense settlements in Eastern Europe during Paleolithic , compared to W-Balkans... for Illyrians, I suppose they countained more than a dominant HG? without being sure... I should bet for a dominant Y-R1a about them; I see no certainty for now
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Yes, I totally agree with that. Farming began really early in the Eastern Balkans, and it seems like the best location for a mixed Paleolithic European and near-eastern population. The large population ,which would have been the result of thousands of years of farming, wouldn't have been obliterated once Indo-European steppe people arrived, they would have been assimilated. By the time Slavs reached the West Balkans, they would have been thoroughly mixed with East Balkan populations or at least they brought them as "cannon fodder" troops perhaps. But I think this only applies to some Slavic tribes, I think others came directly from the North (Poland maybe?) and didn't mix with the population of the Carpathian range. This would explain why Slovenia and Northern Croatia both have a larger percentage of "Slavic-looking" people, and at the same time a lower frequency of Y-I2a1b. I don't think that a low frequency of both is merely accidental.
 
Templar said:
Yes, I totally agree with that. Farming began really early in the Eastern Balkans, and it seems like the best location for a mixed Paleolithic European and near-eastern population. The large population ,which would have been the result of thousands of years of farming, wouldn't have been obliterated once Indo-European steppe people arrived, they would have been assimilated. By the time Slavs reached the West Balkans, they would have been thoroughly mixed with East Balkan populations or at least they brought them as "cannon fodder" troops perhaps. But I think this only applies to some Slavic tribes, I think others came directly from the North (Poland maybe?) and didn't mix with the population of the Carpathian range. This would explain why Slovenia and Northern Croatia both have a larger percentage of "Slavic-looking" people, and at the same time a lower frequency of Y-I2a1b. I don't think that a low frequency of both is merely accidental.
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This is from wikipedia about I2a -Dinaric, I have no doubt it is a marker of the slavic migration to the balkans: I-L69.2 (L69.2(=T)/S163.2) {rs9786274} is typical of the South Slavic populations of south-eastern Europe, being highest in Bosnia-Herzegovina (>50%).[14] Haplogroup I-L69.2 is also commonly found in north-eastern Italians.[15] There is also a high concentration of I-L69.2 in north-east Romania, Moldova and western Ukraine. In 2010 has Ken Nordtvedt argued that I-L69.2 is too young not to have been a result of a sudden expansion.[16] According to him I2a1b1 arose not earlier than 2500 years ago in Eastern Europe. He has presumed this to be a consequence from the Slavic invasion of the Balkans, from the area north-east of the Carpathians since 500 CE.[17] In 2011 Nordtvedt has confirmed I-L69.2 is not older than 2,800 years.[18] In his last comments about Haplogroup I tree and the conjectured spread map, he locates the start of the I-L69.2 lineage around the middle course of the Vistula.[19]
 
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