(OFFTOPIC from rise of PIEs in the steppes)
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Yetos
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Slovenia and Croatia have their own stories, Slovenia for example a good Historical mention is Carantani. Croatia has a strange spread of R1a, I was expecting it to be more in inland continental Croatia, yet seems to be more in Dalmatia. Croats as Slavs seems to enter from North and East Serbs are mention to came from North parts or even North of Great Moravia and reach N Peloponese Severi seems to enter from Ucraine through Romania (with Bulgars) and end at about Albania Greece and Fyrom Bosnia is a new culture that springs from older Slavic cultures (at least for me), mainly after Ottomans. Fyrom seems to be a South Serb genetical influence, but closer to Bulgarian culture. (always at least for me)
Templar
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All the maps I've seen indicate that R1a is lower in Dalmatia than in the rest of Croatia: http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/Haplogroup-R1a.gif "Bosnia is a new culture that springs from older Slavic cultures (at least for me)" There is plenty of documents that show that Medieval Bosnians considered themselves seperate from Croats and Serbs. Keep in mind that before the arrival of Serbs and Croats, there were other Slavic tribes which arrived with the Avars. Croats assimilated those Slavic tribes in modern-day Croatia, Serbs did it in Serbia, and Bosnians made an identity mostly from those first Slavic tribes. It isn't difficult to understand.
Templar
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Yeah, it is quite possible. Only Bosnian serbs have it at that high of a frequency? That is odd. By the way, many "Serbs" aren't native to Bosnia, they served as border-guards for the Ottoman Turks. Ottoman Turks trusted the Orthodox population much more than Catholics, and since most of Bosnia was Catholic in the 15th century, they had to bring in people that they could trust. The book "A short history: Bosnia" by Noel Malcolm, is a really good book if you want to learn more about the history of Bosnia.
Dalmat
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Its not if you are into science fiction.Bosnian were never ethicity unitl 1994, but regional term ascribed to those living by river Bosnia.There are plenty of records that speak about that, as well as common sense.Avars and their allies settled pannonian plane, never below, they only went raiding south occasionally.Todays Dalmatia, and part of BiH was Croatian proto state, which united with(conqured) Panonian Slavs in the north who were probably those that were with Avars you speak of.Bosnian Ban was one of the 7 Croatian Bans of Croatian kingdom who went rouge after king was regicided, and his lands(which were by the river Bosina doh) were foundation of Bosnian kingdom later on.
Templar
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You have no evidence whatsoever that Medieval Bosnians considered themselves Croat. All Bosnian documents in which Bosnians refer to themselves, the word "Bosnanin" is used. Catholics in Bosnia didn't consider themselves Croat until 19th century, when nationalism spread throughout Europe after the Napoleonic wars. There are many 19th century CATHOLIC Bosnians which confirm this. Most of the Catholic Bosnians figured that they had more in common with neighboring Croatia than with Muslim Bosnians, so they changed identities. Avars did penetrate further southwards than you say. Remember that the supposed reason why Croats and Serbs came, is because the Byzantines require assistance against the Avars and their Slavic allies. If the Avars were strictly confined merely at the Northern Byzantine border, there would have been no need for Croat and Serb conquest now would there?
Dalmat
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Of course there is.Supetarski kartular for instance, preserved first hand historical evidence from begining of 11 century. Do you know what means first hand, its original, not some "transcript". As for nonsence that Chatolic Bosnians didnt consider them selves Croats until 19. century, how do you explain Turks called them Croats way before that.It was Turk imagination?Less propaganda more facts, in fact all history about Bosnia was preserved by Croats, that coat of arms you have is desighned by Croat in '90. Less fantasy, more facts, please.First Bosnian King Tvrtko Koromanić(that surname stil exist among Croats BTW), his uncle Ban Stjepan Kotromanić wrote to the Pope in 1347 when asing for monks "...doctrina peritos et lingue croatice non ignaros" - knowilgable in religion, and not without knowing Croatian language.
Dalmat
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Also please re-read history books, you write so much disinformation, its unbelivable, Serbs came after us, and were not fighting Avars, we took care of them before. Avars were on panonian plane, and they raided southwards, ocasionaly crossing Sava river, and some even came to the coast, and started rading Roman towns. tHey did not settled south, only came as raidng bands.Serbs were mentioned first at around Solun(Makedoinia), and then moved towards Belgrade, to southern Serbia, now known as Sandžak, or Raška, which quickly fell to Bugars.It was a border betwenn Bulgaria and Croatia, and lots of well documented battles from different sources took place there.
Yetos
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I am not Serb but from what I remember they are mention south of Danube, among Beograd to Nis, first time, then at Skopje the times of Dusan, Thessaloniki is very far from where Serbs proto-mentioned about 300-500 km at least. the case of Bosnians as Croats or Serbs I can not tell, But seems that Local rulers in medieval times play well the game of alliance and religion, Gennetics show that Bosnia i Herzegovina was Heavily inhabited by Slavs, maybe more than some areas which we consider today South Slavs, differences among Slavs could be due to previous culture, and due to the alliances they made. so the only I can tell is that denying the Slavic part of Bosnia is tottaly wrong, Besides what we must see is not the eye-vision that we have today, but the eye that people had that time, for example today in area we say Catholics Muslims and Orthodox, But was it the same before 1054 ? Did Catholics or Orthodox exist the time that Slavs enter Balkans? damn I can not even underline. if we see with today eye we may fail by using today's criteria, we must with the eyes of 600 AD and after. so the termination Catholic and Orthodox and Muslim did not existed that time, even Slavs did not know about Christians that time, so what we call today Croat or Bosnian or Serb might be the other nationality that time, and through time and local rulers alliances and decisions change to another nationality today ................................................................................................................ @Templar I do not know if any other Slavic tribe entered Balkans, but Bosnia is Gennetically heavy from Slavic elements, the Catholics Orthodox Muslim of today has to do with alliances after the entrance of Slavs to Balkans, when Slavs entered Balkans they were not Christians, then started to convert, and then at 1054 started the great Schsim to catholics and Orthodox, and after Ottomans enetered the Muslim element, ..................................................................................................................................... To Both understand more compare the Data of Bosnia Croatia Serbia and Fyrom (especially with the city of Skopje), use the local eye focusing to provinces mainly and not today border lines, border lines are just geographical criteria, focus mainly in R1a and in I2a2-Din (old name), there are your answers.
Templar
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Chill your tone, this is a discussion, no need for emotions. Have you read the writings of 19th century Catholic Bosnians such as Antun Knežević? They specifically refer to a process of Croatization happening. As to the supetar cartulary, it even mentions an Albanian ban, do you consider them Croatian too? The quote you mentioned isn't reliable evidence, the number of priests in Bosnia was already relatively low, how could you expect any of them to be living in the Papal States, not to mention the fact that Croatia likely had a much larger population (and therefore more priests).
Templar
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It seems like disinformation to you, because you have a biased political agenda. Lets stick to facts and analysis, deal? There are quite a few legitimate maps, which show the Avar Khagnate going further South than the Pannonian plane (just google it). Serbs and Croats were both used by the Byzantines against the Avars, why are you disputing this?
The spread of christianity is quite interesting too. Originally it was the state religion of the roman empire, put in place by Emperor Constantine of Illyrian origin (272 - 337 AD). The new testament was originally writen in greek, so probably it was writen by Constantine's wise men in the Byzantine empire. This all happened at a time when the Roman Empire was at the deffensive from the barbarian tribes. Somehow in the middle ages the germanic, slavic, and latin people all became christians. It seems the invaders of the roman empire (germanic or slavic) actually liked this new religion and kept it as a state religion of their own. Oddly enough, the ottoman turks also let christianity live and prosper under their protection until the 18-19th century, when they started forced conversions to islam in Albania and Bosnia.
Yetos
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are you sure you are not ZEUS 10? are you sure you giving us the correct data and scientific proves? was Vallavan at 18th century? was new testament written in Con/nes men by Con/ne's wise men? Gods, I wonder is the history that Albanians are teached in school or the history that Zeus 10 made? plz man tell us in which book you read that? asource. let me guess, religion history is forbiden in Albania? or you are just an atheist or muslim that never came in contact with religion History?
cause from what I see by your post, then Kastrioti and Vallavan pasha were at 18th century.
New testament was written after the translation of O' and much after Italla in Constantinople by Constantine's wise men!!!!! So at 1rst Century in Rome the christians did not had written texts, the O' where not in Alexandreia, and his majesty emperror Nero ? so Kamani who were the ones that Nero send to arena? and why christians exterminate Greeks with such hate?
so Constantine who all say that is connected (mother origin) with Nis Serbia was Illyrian? is that you like and wanted to Be? or historically tested and by who? Zeus 10? why you Albanians keep spreading incorect Data and twist historical data to the forum? I guess tomorrow you will tell us that Homer was Illyrian and spoke Albanian, right Kamani? ...................................................................................................................... @kamani Aelians were not Pelasgians, Iones are not Aeolians, Mycaneans are not the only Greeks, E-V13 did not came from neolithic Spain, E-V13 is not Caucasian in origin, New testament was not written in Constantinopolis, New testament was not written at 324 AD, New testament was not written by Constanine's wise men, Islam exist in Albania much before 18th century, (except if Kastrioti and Vallavan pasha existed in 18th century), and Constanine's mother was named Ελενη (Helen) and was from NIS Serbia, Nis Serbia is connected with 4rth Legion the Flavia which gave emperrors until Justinianus (Flavius) dynasty, as for his father ..... ................................................................................................................................................... I don't know why you do it? but man is ........... to the other who read and write to forum, I wonder when you will understand that? keep your Albanocentric twisted propaganda for your shelf and zeus10, if you want to twist history, gennetics, facts, texts then that means you do it either by ignorance, either on purpose.
Dalmat
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Avars were Horsemen who never settled anywhere near mountainus BiH, not only folloving common sense, but we dont have any archeological evidence of Avars beeing in BiH.I am not disputing Serbs being involved with Avars, sources relevant to subject dispute that... i think it should be clear.
I am not going to lower my standards just yet and do the whole name-calling thing, but here is the facts from wikipedia. As you can see, Constantine was Illyrian and before him christianity was just a persecuted illegal sect. Ballaban was christian chatholic. Ty for correcting me about the new testament being writen during Constantine; it was writen before him, but maybe just by 100 years, which is nothing. Taken from wikipedia: In almost all Christian traditions today, the New Testament consists of 27 books. The original texts were written in the first and perhaps the second centuries of the Christian Era, generally believed to be in Koine Greek.Flavius Valerius Constantinus, as he was originally named, was born in the city of Naissus, Dardania province of Moesia, in present-day Niš, Serbia, on 27 February of an uncertain year,[27] probably near 272.[28] His father was Flavius Constantius, a native of Dardania province of Moesia (later Dacia Ripensis).[29] Constantius was a tolerant and politically skilled man.[30] Constantine probably spent little time with his father.[31] Constantius was an officer in the Roman army in 272, part of the Emperor Aurelian's imperial bodyguard. Constantius advanced through the ranks, earning the governorship of Dalmatia from Emperor Diocletian, another of Aurelian's companions from Illyricum, in 284 or 285.In February 313, Constantine met with Licinius in Milan, where they developed the Edict of Milan. The edict stated that Christians should be allowed to follow the faith without oppression.[204] This removed penalties for professing Christianity, under which many had been martyred in persecutions of Christians.Ballaban Badera was born in Mat, Albania as a Catholic with the name Michael, the son of Milosh and Helena. Conscripted through the Devshirme system he rose to the rank of Pasha in the Ottoman Army under Sultan Mehmed II.Ballaban fought Skanderbeg in April 1465 close to Ohrid. The Albanians were victorious, but many officers were captured, including Moisi Arianit Golemi of Dibra. They were sent to Constantinople, where after refusing to join the Ottoman faction they were executed by public skinning in Istanbul.Albania and the Kosovo area remained under Ottoman rule until 1913. Previous to the Ottoman conquest, the northern Albanians were Roman Catholic and the southern Albanians were Christian Orthodox, but by 1913 the majority were Muslim. Apart from the effect of a lengthy period under Ottoman domination, many of the subject population were converted to Islam as a result of a deliberate move by the Ottomans as part of a policy of ensuring the loyalty of the population against a potential Venetian invasion.
Templar
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You forget that the Avars were a minority, their Slavic allies formed the vast majority of their forces. "any archeological evidence of Avars beeing in BiH" Perhaps but there is evidence that there were Slavic tribes there before the arrival of Croats and Serbs. "I am not disputing Serbs being involved with Avars, sources relevant to subject dispute that... i think it should be clear" Serbs fought against Avars in Byzantine armies, look it up.
Yetos
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Correct Kamani at least you have study in Wikipedia lets go more now,
1)
Vallavan pasha, Did you ever hear that turks would make a non Muslim as pasha,
Pasha is a very high military position, pasha can have its own army, would ottomans give that tittle to a non muslim?
and since Vallavan was born as Michael you know that he is the first who converted to Islam, so the first converter was not at 18 century but at least before or same time with Kruja
chance religion means also change of name, so it is not 18th or 19 century, but at least before 1460-5
2)
the Constantine,
NIS WAS NOT ILLYRIAN BUT THRACIAN TRBALLI THRACIAN CULTURE, TRIBALLI WERE NOT ILLYRIANS
ROMANS NAMED DARDANIA ILLYRICUM MAKEDONIA AREAS THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO.
NIS WAS THE AREA THAT 4rth LEGION FLAVIA used as base and homeland,
legion Flavia is the legion that Gauls-celts Scordisci join and replace All emperors of that dynasty to Justinianus use that Flavia, Nis name is given by Scordisci Gauls who spoke Belgae,
original dardania Illyricum makedonia Achaia etc that Romans name has nothing to do with Geography and population, Byzantines once named Makedonia the Stara Zagora area and Bulgaria the Bosnia.
Nis is the limit of the Triballi and Paeoni Thracians,
understand it he was a Flavian, means Roman or Gaul in ancestry, Flavian dynasty of Rome?
we are playing with words, Triballi land was Illyricum but not Illyrians understand that
every one in Illyricum does mean was Illyrian, it is another the Makedonia of ancient times, another the Makedonia of Romans, and another the Makedonia of Iberian dynasty of East Romans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legio_IV_Flavia_Felix
The Romans occupied the town in the period of the "Dardanian War" (75-73 BC), and set up a legionary camp.[9] The city (called refugia and vici in pre-Roman relation), because of its strategic position (the Thracians were based to the south[9])
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niš
search the stories of 4 Legion Macedonica and 5 legion Aludae (cinqueari), some Aromani may have origin in that legion.
and the story of 4 Legion Flavia they were all Italians(4 Mac) and province Gauls(5 Alu)
the name Nis is a Gaulish name
ty, with your answer we can have a normal discuss.
1. I never said Ballaban remained christian all his life. Ofcourse the ottomans would want their
pasha-s to convert.
2. Not everybody named Flavius was roman and I doubt that everybody in Niss was Triballi or from the Flavia roman legion.
This is from Encyclopedia Brittanica:
Several of the most outstanding emperors of the late Roman Empire were of Illyrian origin,
including Claudius II Gothicus, Aurelian, Diocletian, and Constantine the Great, most of whom
were chosen by their own troops on the battlefield and later acclaimed by the Senate.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/283105/Illyria
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