Old Europe

[Maleth]

That's certainly the view of her detractors. My own personal opinion is that in later life Gimbutas rather left off being an anthropologist and linguist and archaeologist, and increasingly became an impassioned proponent of a certain point of view regarding matriarchy and patriarchy. (This is a viewpoint which she certainly didn't invent; the belief that matriarchies predated patriarchies was an idea with roots in the 19th century.) So, in her early work, she proposed not that women controlled the levers of power in "Old Europe", but that they had a more equal position, not that there was one "Great Goddess", but that there were many goddesses, each representing different aspects of the life cycle, and that there was a fertility based "religion" or cult practices in "Old Europe", which had extraordinary importance. From my reading, I would say that I don't think that there is any doubt that the "feminine principle" has been worshiped all over the world, and from very early times, perhaps more so with the invention of agriculture. The relationship of this principle with that of the masculine Sky God varied according to the culture, I think.

Deviating a little here but other things come to mind. Is it possible that the Catholic and Orthodox religions (as a historical reference) could have percolated this image and female veneration with the image of Mary given the name of mother of God?.... but then as you stated this female veneration is also found in Hinduism till present day, albeit lacking in Islam and Judaism.

 

[Angela]

Deviating a little here but other things come to mind. Is it possible that the Catholic and Orthodox religions (as a historical reference) could have percolated this image and female veneration with the image of Mary given the name of mother of God?.... but then as you stated this female veneration is also found in Hinduism till present day, albeit lacking in Islam and Judaism.

Some critics of Christianity, or maybe I should say sceptics, including people like Frazier, author of The Golden Bough, or Joseph Campbell in The Power of Myth and many of his other works, would say that Christianity is a blend of the Hebraic myths and the Greek, really the Mediterranean myths of the mother goddess, the virgin birth, the hero, and the rising and dying god. They point out a lot of parallels, in particular with the Osiris myth of Egypt. Of course, my old prepatory school theology professor viewed it as pre-figuration to prepare people for the reality when it happened.

 

[Aberdeen]

Some critics of Christianity, or maybe I should say sceptics, including people like Frazier, author of The Golden Bough, or Joseph Campbell in The Power of Myth and many of his other works, would say that Christianity is a blend of the Hebraic myths and the Greek, really the Mediterranean myths of the mother goddess, the virgin birth, the hero, and the rising and dying god. They point out a lot of parallels, in particular with the Osiris myth of Egypt. Of course, my old prepatory school theology professor viewed it as pre-figuration to prepare people for the reality when it happened.

Sure, the christians among us can go with that - your god created Goddesses in the minds of earlier people so that they'd be ready to understand when Mary showed up. I'm not going to snark too much on that idea, since at least the catholic church kept the concept of the Goddess alive to some extent with the cult of Mary, and it was something that protestants tried very had to get rid of.

 

[Angela]

Sure, the christians among us can go with that - your god created Goddesses in the minds of earlier people so that they'd be ready to understand when Mary showed up. I'm not going to snark too much on that idea, since at least the catholic church kept the concept of the Goddess alive to some extent with the cult of Mary, and it was something that protestants tried very had to get rid of.

That was quite snarky enough, thank-you.

Have you ever noticed that non-believers are often incapable of discussing the religious belief of others, or even the religious experience as manifested in history without being snarky? A little tolerance wouldn't come amiss, you know.

Fwiw, it's not "my" God. That's a bit of an assumption, don't you think?

I don't think 99% of Christians have a clue about any of this. (Well, maybe I'm being snarky now.

) I was very, yes, blessed, to be taught in prepatory school by nuns who had the qualifications to teach at a much higher level, so our theology/philosophy classes, held for one period a day, were as unlike the normal religious Sunday school experience as can be imagined. We read from The Golden Bough, and Joseph Campbell, and Biblical archaeologists, and Teilhard de Chardin and Hans Kung, and Karl Barth too. We spent a whole semester senior year reading all the French existentialists...in French, most of them, mind you, since it was a French speaking order. Nothing at university approached the intellectual rigor of some of those classes, and not only in theology, but in history as well, where we read in the Classics in Latin. I'll forever be grateful to them, even though at the time I was constantly chafing at the restraints. I think they taught their own interests, and perhaps they also felt that they were preparing us for the intellectual attacks we would face at secular universities. Unfortunately, faith, whether it's a gift of grace, or an act of the will, the proverbial "leap of faith", is ultimately not the product of intellect or reason, at least not in my personal opinion and experience.

As for the role of Mary, I think you're absolutely correct. There's a certain school of thought which holds that the persona of Mary, the rites dedicated to her, formed a large part of the attraction of Christianity in the classical world. I think she filled, and fills, for the faithful, a need not filled by a patriarchal God. I don't think that's necessarily something that applies only to women, either. A mother figure is a powerful comforter for men and women alike.

 

[kamani]

Christianity is Hebraism + story of Jesus written first in Greek. The concepts of Salvation and Forgiveness are what the ancient Byzantines came up with; such religious concepts are counter-intuitive in any other culture outside of Europe. One can say that Christianity was born in the Balkans.

 

[Aberdeen]

................
As for the role of Mary, I think you're absolutely correct. There's a certain school of thought which holds that the persona of Mary, the rites dedicated to her, formed a large part of the attraction of Christianity in the classical world. I think she filled, and fills, for the faithful, a need not filled by a patriarchal God. I don't think that's necessarily something that applies only to women, either. A mother figure is a powerful comforter for men and women alike.

I think that one of the things I like about Old Europe, as depicted by Gimbutas, is the role of the Earth Mother. When we lose touch with the concept of the Earth as our mother, bad things seem to happen in terms of the kind of society we construct. Just one strand of a very complex issue, but an important one, I think.

As for the subject of tolerance, there are still christians involved in the murder of shamans in South America, although they do tend to be protestants. But many of us do wonder how tolerant the catholic church would have been under a pope like Bernie if it had the kind of power it once had to burn heretics. I do think the current pope seems to be quite a different type than Bernie, though. However, the question of who's more or less tolerant than who isn't something that's easy to agree on. You don't seem like the type who would persecute someone. I think I'd only fear having to debate you in front of an audience, since you do seem to have a very good grasp of history and theology.

 

[LeBrok]

I think that one of the things I like about Old Europe, as depicted by Gimbutas, is the role of the Earth Mother. When we lose touch with the concept of the Earth as our mother, bad things seem to happen in terms of the kind of society we construct. Just one strand of a very complex issue, but an important one, I think.

I knew you are a spiritual person, . Mind you that in nature there are no bad or good things, they just are.

 

[LeBrok]

That's certainly the view of her detractors. My own personal opinion is that in later life Gimbutas rather left off being an anthropologist and linguist and archaeologist, and increasingly became an impassioned proponent of a certain point of view regarding matriarchy and patriarchy. (This is a viewpoint which she certainly didn't invent; the belief that matriarchies predated patriarchies was an idea with roots in the 19th century.) So, in her early work, she proposed not that women controlled the levers of power in "Old Europe", but that they had a more equal position, not that there was one "Great Goddess", but that there were many goddesses, each representing different aspects of the life cycle, and that there was a fertility based "religion" or cult practices in "Old Europe", which had extraordinary importance. From my reading, I would say that I don't think that there is any doubt that the "feminine principle" has been worshiped all over the world, and from very early times, perhaps more so with the invention of agriculture. The relationship of this principle with that of the masculine Sky God varied according to the culture, I think.

I'm very ok with this, as many poster noticed the cult of goddess still continue till today and needed to be accommodated by christian churches. Giving birth to new life, the fertility woman, must have been one of first religious idols, if not the first one.

I always found it difficult to accept that any human culture could be pacific, no matter its guiding principles. However, her more fervent supporters maintain that critics of this concept are not on very firm ground either.
Warfare in the European Neolithic: Truth or Fiction?
http://www.belili.org/marija/marler_article_03.html

It is safe to conclude that way back in HGs times and First Farmers population were spares enough for people to avoid conflicts, and had fewer wars. It is a different story later with increased population density. It is also safe to say that IE were rather very aggressive in nature when compared to others, otherwise they wouldn't have conquered half the world.

There were proposed to be three successive "waves" of expansion:- Wave 1, predating Kurgan I, expansion from the lower Volga to the Dnieper, leading to coexistence of Kurgan I and the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture. Repercussions of the migrations extend as far as the Balkans and along the Danube to the Vinca and Lengyel cultures in Hungary.

Right, the beginning.

Wave 2, mid 4th millennium BC, originating in the Maykop culture and resulting in advances of "kurganized" hybrid cultures into northern Europe around 3000 BC (Globular Amphora culture, Baden culture, and ultimately Corded Ware culture). According to Gimbutas this corresponds to the first intrusion of Indo-European languages into western and northern Europe.

I remember this one. The Old Europe collapse, end of Cucuteni culture.

Wave 3, 3000–2800 BC, expansion of the Pit Grave culture beyond the steppes, with the appearance of the characteristic pit graves as far as the areas of modern Romania, Bulgaria and eastern Hungary, coincident with the end of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (c.2750 BC).

This one is sort of extension of the second. At least I had it this way in my mind.
Thanks for explaining.

 

[Angela]

You don't seem like the type who would persecute someone. I think I'd only fear having to debate you in front of an audience, since you do seem to have a very good grasp of history and theology.

I don't think I've ever 'persecuted' anyone, but I have to admit I can be rather vicious verbally if I or those I love are attacked in any way, or if I feel someone has acted in a morally reprehensible manner. Having a viper tongue seems to sort of run in the women of my father's family, and I inherited it I'm afraid. No defendant would want me on a jury, either, particularly if it involved something like parental neglect, or sexual or spousal abuse, or serial killings...nor as the judge, for that matter. I also don't tolerate fools gladly, particularly arrogant fools.

As for debates, I'll have you know that I was Captain of the debate team, so beware! Seriously, I don't know how effective I'd be in a debate on this subject. I was always and am always at my best when I believe in the position I'm defending whole heartedly, and I'm afraid I'm what we call a "lapsed" Catholic. Still, if the Jesuits are right, and if they have you until you're seven, they have you forever, maybe that will change.

You know, maybe I'd do alright anyway. A hapless, young, Mormon missionary, the salt of the earth, no doubt, came to my door a few years ago, easel, visual aids and all. He caught me when I was in a very bad mood, and the poor boy was virtually in tears within twenty minutes. I felt quite guilty afterwards. :sad-2:

 

[Aberdeen]

I don't think I've ever 'persecuted' anyone, but I have to admit I can be rather vicious verbally if I or those I love are attacked in any way, or if I feel someone has acted in a morally reprehensible manner. Having a viper tongue seems to sort of run in the women of my father's family, and I inherited it I'm afraid. No defendant would want me on a jury, either, particularly if it involved something like parental neglect, or sexual or spousal abuse, or serial killings...nor as the judge, for that matter. I also don't tolerate fools gladly, particularly arrogant fools.

As for debates, I'll have you know that I was Captain of the debate team, so beware! Seriously, I don't know how effective I'd be in a debate on this subject. I was always and am always at my best when I believe in the position I'm defending whole heartedly, and I'm afraid I'm what we call a "lapsed" Catholic. Still, if the Jesuits are right, and if they have you until you're seven, they have you forever, maybe that will change.

You know, maybe I'd do alright anyway. A hapless, young, Mormon missionary, the salt of the earth, no doubt, came to my door a few years ago, easel, visual aids and all. He caught me when I was in a very bad mood, and the poor boy was virtually in tears within twenty minutes. I felt quite guilty afterwards. :sad-2:

Don't feel bad about it. IMO, anyone who tries to convert strangers who didn't ask to hear about "the one true way" deserves a few knocks, regardless of what they're trying to sell. And I can understand your sentimental attachment to the Catholic Church, just as you can probably understand why I'm leery of any religious institution that wants to make the rules for everyone, including non-believers, and wants to change the law to conform to its belief system. But when I remember my mother talking about her fond memories of life as a young Catholic in England, the things she remembered and treasured were those things that were actually somewhat Pagan and vestiges of Old Europe, such as the well dressing ceremonies. And of course the priests and priestesses of Old Europe no doubt had their own orthodoxy that they enforced in their own little communities, and traditional societies aren't noted for their tolerance for non-conformity. I'd like to think that their rules of conduct would have been more positive and life affirming that what's taught by the conservative proponents of modern religions, but I don't think we can know for sure. But it seems as if what little has survived of Old Europe is about remembering our connection with the natural world. And forgetting that connection and wanting dominion over the world seems to be precisely what gets us hairless apes into trouble, although it's also what lead to a lot of inventions that make life much more comfortable. In reality, I wouldn't like to be back in my childhood of rural poverty, cutting wood for the fire ever day and using an outhouse in the middle of a Canadian winter. But I love any ritual that connects us to that vanished past where we remembered that the animals were our brothers and sisters, so that we respected them even when we did have to hunt them for food. Unfortunately, if I found an isolated European village celebrating a very traditional May Day, I'd just be a tourist watching the exotic natives.

P.S. I'd love to have been there to see you shred that Mormon Missionary. That would probably have been both amusing and scary, like watching a Maenad in action.

 

[Maleth]

It is safe to conclude that way back in HGs times and First Farmers population were spares enough for people to avoid conflicts, and had fewer wars. It is a different story later with increased population density. It is also safe to say that IE were rather very aggressive in nature when compared to others, otherwise they wouldn't have conquered half the world.

I agree that space and abundant resources would keep war at bay, and it could be very much the case of these people. I also think in its nature, farming could tame the spirit and the mind and decrease the 'adrenal activity', especially if yields are consistent and food and water always available with the community being more in control of its environment (until something kind of cataclysm occurs!)

When it comes to hunting and gathering the outlook (character) would be molded differently and the time consumed in different ways and surviving methods will have different priorities. The availability of food has always shaped the migration / settlements history. Also in relation to the elements available as in climate changes. Life perceptions and outlooks (thinking, deities, philosophy) changed according to the methods and ease also in relation of the need on how homo sapiens would be able to survive and their struggle to attain it.

 

[Angela]

P.S. I'd love to have been there to see you shred that Mormon Missionary. That would probably have been both amusing and scary, like watching a Maenad in action.

I was more in my lawyer mode...

Than in this mode...at the end she's told her husband is having a heart attack, and she responds that he can't be having a heart attack, because you need a heart to have one. Oh, and at the beginning he's talking to his girlfriend. Of course, one has to have a tiny bit of sympathy for him, as she got him to marry her by pretending she was on her death bed,and all the other people were in on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ta5-ng4l7eE

 

[Angela]

Depending on the place, I think quite a bit of "Old Europe" has survived, in the sense that the fidelity to the old Neolithic, Mediterranean "myths", myths which, according to Christian apologists like C.S.Lewis "were made fact" are alive and well, independent of whether people literally believe in every word of the Credo, and also independent certainly of any adherence to church teachings on sexuatliy. In a place like Italy, for example, while most people believe in God, church attendance is mostly by women, and increasingly by older women, and older people in general. Italian men famously stop going to Mass after their confirmation, except for weddings, baptisms, communions and funerals. They used to walk their children and women folk to Mass and wait outside smoking and playing bocce. My mother was stupefied to see so many men in America attending Mass. (My father was one of them. When I married, as I was still an observant Catholic at that time, I asked him to receive communion, which of course meant confession. He agreed, which was a huge deal. My mother insisted on going, but said she'd wait outside...she wanted to see if the church fell down around him.

The belief in specific church doctrines also has very little to do with whether or not you participate in the various feste which ornament every part of the year. If need be, people wait outside while Mass is said, and then join in the procession.

Just some examples:

In ancient Rome, the 10-day rite in honor of Attis, son of the great goddess Cybele, began on March 15th. A pine tree, which represented Attis, was chopped down, wrapped in a linen shroud, decorated with violets and placed in a sepulchre in the temple. On the Day of Blood or Black Friday, the priests of the cult gashed themselves with knives as they danced ecstatically, sympathizing with Cybele in her grief and helping to restore Attis to life. Two days later, a priest opened the sepulchre at dawn, revealing that it was empty and announcing that the god was saved. This day was known as Hilaria or the Day of Joy, a time of feasting and merriment.

I'm sure the similarities with the processions of Holy Thursday and Good Friday are obvious and known to most people. As is the common representation of Christ as the "Lamb of God". Then there's the obvious symbolism of Easter eggs as a representation of birth.

In Italy, on the Monday after Easter, we celebrate what we call Pasquetta. Easter Sunday is for family dinners, but on Pasquetta you're supposed to go into the country and picnic or have dinner with friends and family, and children can roll their Easter eggs. This is where I normally go when I'm home. It has the largest daffodil display in Italy.
http://www.mdisk.it/img/w_800/h_600...f_www.mdisk.it/tuscany4u.it/file/news/119.jpg

Then, on the Sunday after Corpus Christi, in late June, right around the time of the vernal equinox, many, many towns create what we call Infiorate. It's the creation of floral 'carpets' through the streets of the town. It takes weeks of planning, days to collect the flowers, and then there's a mad rush to create the designs by making grids that are filled with cut flowers. People stay up around the clock for a few days. There's one in Spello which is very famous, but even near me, people come from all over to see the Infiorata of Brugnato. It's over a kilometer long. After all that work, the priests and accolytes process right over it.

The many festivals to Saint John the Baptist also occur at the end of June, and there are obligatory fireworks. This is the one at Lake Como.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLRuoGplEhw

Or there's the luminaria of S. Ranieri in Pisa, which is around the same time.
http://goitaly.about.com/gi/o.htm?z...011/06/16/la-luminara-di-san-ranieri-in-pisa/

Then there are the many festivals in innumerable coastal towns to Stella Maris, the incarnation of Mary as the Star of the Sea. I'm particularly fond of the one in Camogli just down the coast from me, which was traditionally a town of women, because all the men went to sea. The people float tiny lights on the ocean and decorate boats with flowers and flame to pray for the safety of people at sea. It's quite lovely.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajYhA-xv_Kw

Or, there's Ferragosto, the 15th of August, not so coincidentally the same day as the feast of the Assumption of Mary. Ferragosto literally means the rest of Augustus and was a festival created by the emperor to give rest and relaxation to agricultural workers after the hard work of the summer, and in preparation for the hard work of the harvest. Beware if you travel to Italy in August. Nothing, and I mean nothing is open on that day. If people take off no other days in the year, they take off Christmas and Ferrragosto. I tried to warn an American friend of mine, but to no avail...she couldn't even return her rental car at the train station.

Then there are all the harvest festivals. Even total city dwellers like the people in Milano go into the countryside to buy the fresh olive oil from a frantoio.

Well, I guess you get the picture.

 

[Aberdeen]

I had no idea so much tradition still survived in Italy. But then you didn't have the protestant reformation sweeping away the "pagan remnants" from "the one true faith". Interesting that men in Italy don't go to Mass. I guess they figure if they had to go to confession, it would take up too much of the priest's time and they'd never get around to Mass.

 

[Angela]

I had no idea so much tradition still survived in Italy. But then you didn't have the protestant reformation sweeping away the "pagan remnants" from "the one true faith". Interesting that men in Italy don't go to Mass. I guess they figure if they had to go to confession, it would take up too much of the priest's time and they'd never get around to Mass.

Just wanted you to know that the negative reaction wasn't from me, Aberdeen. I thought your comment was pretty funny, although I think the actual reason has something to do with the whole religion is a "weakness" point of view that is being discussed on another thread. (That's a point of view with which I disagree, by the way, but I'm sure you know that...) They think they're too tough for it, in a way. In other cases, it's political in nature. We've had a lot of socialists and communists in Italy, and there's a strong streak of anti-clericalism even in the liberal parties, particularly in the northwest of the country. Of course, the vast majority of all those Socialists and Communists have their children baptized, and have them take first communion, and get married in the church and everyone participates in the feste. To do otherwise would be to flout tradition, and would also somehow smack of...I don't know, a kind of rigidity, I suppose, almost of fanaticism.

It reminds me of a story I heard on one of the news channels during the election of Papa Francesco. It was about a real Roman who was asked if he was a believer, or went to church or something, and he said oh no, I don't, and then they asked him how he felt about it all as a non Catholic. He was horrified! He said something to the effect that he was born in the shadow of St. Peter's so how could he be anything but a Catholic?! I'm afraid Italians have been cafeteria Catholics since before the pilgrims ever thought of coming to the New World.

 

[Aberdeen]

Just wanted you to know that the negative reaction wasn't from me, Aberdeen. I thought your comment was pretty funny, although I think the actual reason has something to do with the whole religion is a "weakness" point of view that is being discussed on another thread. (That's a point of view with which I disagree, by the way, but I'm sure you know that...) They think they're too tough for it, in a way. In other cases, it's political in nature. We've had a lot of socialists and communists in Italy, and there's a strong streak of anti-clericalism even in the liberal parties, particularly in the northwest of the country. Of course, the vast majority of all those Socialists and Communists have their children baptized, and have them take first communion, and get married in the church and everyone participates in the feste. To do otherwise would be to flout tradition, and would also somehow smack of...I don't know, a kind of rigidity, I suppose, almost of fanaticism.

It reminds me of a story I heard on one of the news channels during the election of Papa Francesco. It was about a real Roman who was asked if he was a believer, or went to church or something, and he said oh no, I don't, and then they asked him how he felt about it all as a non Catholic. He was horrified! He said something to the effect that he was born in the shadow of St. Peter's so how could he be anything but a Catholic?! I'm afraid Italians have been cafeteria Catholics since before the pilgrims ever thought of coming to the New World.

I think I can understand the attitude, Angela. I suspect that if I had grown up Catholic and Italian, I'd be one of those liberal political types who almost never goes to Mass (mostly because of all the political aspects of the Catholic hierarchy that I disapprove of) but would have had my children baptized out of love for the traditional elements of Catholicism, the candles and incense and stained glass and ritual, all those things that I think fulfill a human need to try to connect with the intangible. But I grew up Protestant, in a church that was more conservative than the moslems are when it comes to decoration (not only no candles or incense or ritual, but not even coloured glass allowed in the windows), where it was all about some fool preaching. "Jesus loves you, which is why you're all going to hell." Not much to feel a sentimental attachment to for those of us doesn't believe the theology being sold. And no vestige at all of humankind's oldest religion, the recognition of the Earth as sacred.

 

[Maleth]

where it was all about some fool preaching. "Jesus loves you, which is why you're all going to hell."

:grin: that is so true, but you also used to hear that from the Catholic pulpits. The irony with the protestant religion vs the Catholic is that it is much more forward in regards to women integration in the church (such as women priests and so on) as to the catholic ones, irrelevant of the huge Mary mother of God veneration.

 

[Angela]

:grin: that is so true, but you also used to hear that from the Catholic pulpits. The irony with the protestant religion vs the Catholic is that it is much more forward in regards to women integration in the church (such as women priests and so on) as to the catholic ones, irrelevant of the huge Mary mother of God veneration.

Yes, but we weren't taught that we were predestined for either hell or heaven. You could change the trajectory of your life. You could even, on your deathbed, or in the instant of approaching sudden death, have a heartfelt conversion, or experience sincere repentance for past sins, and be "saved" in Protestant parlance. Surely you were taught the importance of saying the Act of Contrition in such a situation? The opportunities for abuse are obvious, as with the sinner who confesses on Saturday, and receives communion on Sunday, and goes back to his sins on Monday, or proposes to live as he pleases and then when he is old, he'll repent, but while man can be fooled, God cannot, for he can supposedly read the heart and soul, yes?

Then there's the case of the "good" non-Catholic, or "good" non-Christian or agnostic or atheist. That preoccupied my mind for a while as an adolescent, until I learned through more sophisticated teachers that these too are "saved" through Christ...the whole salvation through acts versus salvation through faith alone thing if you're familiar with that... I don't know of any provision for that in current American evangelical protestantism, anyway.

I also think that in religion as in everything else the "character" of a people is reflected in their religious expression, even within, say, Catholicism. So, although the Irish and the Spanish and the Italians and the Poles are all Catholic, the expression, the emphasis, perhaps, is different in each area. One of the things that most struck me when I studied and traveled in Spain is that the number of representations of Christ on the Cross compared to the Madonna and Child is very different than it is in Italy, even given the devotion to Our Lady of Fatima. I think the Orthodox religions are more in line with the Catholic ones in this regard. It also struck me that the Christ figure himself changes as you move from Spain to Italy and then to the Balkans and Greece. There's an awful lot of tortured, agonized Christs in the west, and a resurrected, transfigured Christ on the Cross in the east. Or am I imagining it? As for the Protestant sects, Christ as a man has totally disappeared; all that's left is the abstract cross.

The same thing applies to the treatment of "sexual sin". It was very different indeed in Ireland and with Irish-American clergy compared to Italy.

As to the thing about women priests, in the past there was a role for women in the church as nuns, theologians of a sort, or mystics, like Teresa of Avila or Catherine of Siena, but there was absolutely no role for women in Protestantism.

Present day Catholicism and Orthodoxy are more traditional, but these are matters of custom, like celibacy for priests, which could very easily change. Protestantism has become so "liberal" as a branch of Christianity that, in my opinion, they're evolving themselves straight out of Christianity altogether, with the exception of American style evangelical Christianity.

There's also, as Aberdeen pointed out, no room for the mystical experience in the Protestant sects, and no attempt to foster it. So, for those who need it or want it, the only things left are intellectually bankrupt, imo, superficial, "New Age" type "stuff", or adherence to "eastern" mystical religions. I certainly respect the latter approaches to the transcendent, but I don't think they're a very good "fit" for westerners. Just my personal opinion.

 

[Maleth]

I also think that in religion as in everything else the "character" of a people is reflected in their religious expression

ditto

Present day Catholicism and Orthodoxy are more traditional, but these are matters of custom, like celibacy for priests, which could very easily change. Protestantism has become so "liberal" as a branch of Christianity that, in my opinion, they're evolving themselves straight out of Christianity altogether, with the exception of American style evangelical Christianity.

I am not sure what you think about the future of Religions, but I truly believe that in the information age any religion is going to be in crisis. Its not easy to adhere to strict religious dogmas no matter where they come from in relation to science, logic and common sense, so loosing up would be the only way to keep the sheep to the flock in any significant numbers. Information technology is changing the world, its lacking still in many parts of the world, but its set to grow.

 

[Aberdeen]

......................

There's also, as Aberdeen pointed out, no room for the mystical experience in the Protestant sects, and no attempt to foster it. So, for those who need it or want it, the only things left are intellectually bankrupt, imo, superficial, "New Age" type "stuff", or adherence to "eastern" mystical religions. I certainly respect the latter approaches to the transcendent, but I don't think they're a very good "fit" for westerners. Just my personal opinion.

I think that's precisely why the modern Neo-Pagan movement has emerged. The Druids who gather at Stonehenge every Summer Solstice probably feel that the protestant reformation swept away the last traces of Old Europe from Britain, and they'd like to find a way to recreate or re-invent it. I personally think there's often a lack of realism about the subject, and that if some of these modern day Druids somehow found themselves in the company of actual Iron Age Druids, the two groups would likely have very little in common. However, I think there is in some people a hunger to experience both mystical states of being and a stronger connection with the natural world. I don't much care for Newage, what with its fluffiness and preoccupation with ascending to the light, and although I think the eastern paths have some very interesting ideas and methods, they're based on a worldview that westerners don't share and often find difficult to understand. So I have some sympathy for people who go to a Neolithic barrow to meditate on their ancestral path, even if they're just making it up as they go, as long as they don't damage any historical sites. But I think the real Old Europe only survives in village festivals held by people who no doubt consider themselves good Catholics.