Origin of blonde hair in Neolithic farmers.

[MOESAN]

When I look at this pagge 22-23:

https://www.science.org/action/down...6/science.abq0755&file=science.abq0755_sm.pdf

What is difference between light and blond hair?

And I'm convinced that with regard to blond we also must take in account red hair. Because in both cases it's about pheomelanin.

Hair without much eumelanin gives depigmented hair, a kind of ash blond, simply: brown hair but depigmented.

It's the reddish yellow pheomelanin that gives the warmth. Tacitus gave the name rufios to Germanic blond, does this implicate a reddish, warm pigment?

But in the table in the publication red hair is restricted to only three hits, Bronze Age Croatia, LBK Baden Hungary, Hungarian Bell Beaker, and a Hungarian Longobard (hinting at Tacitus ?

Nevertheless to fragmented to draw any conclusion I guess.....

It's enough to look at the categories created by Lazaridis team to see their work doesn't permit precise conclusions.
For eyes, it's even worst. 2 categories!!! Surely some active SNP's have been omitted. And how to provide sure and precise links between SNP's and phoenotypes when there is in fact no consensus in the hues classifications?!?
Fisher's scale for hair was very precise but very fragmented and the diverse "scientists" who simplified it by re-groupings didn't it in the same way one compared to another...

 

[Northener]

It's enough to look at the categories created by Lazaridis team to see their work doesn't permit precise conclusions.
For eyes, it's even worst. 2 categories!!! Surely some active SNP's have been omitted. And how to provide sure and precise links between SNP's and phoenotypes when there is in fact no consensus in the hues classifications?!?
Fisher's scale for hair was very precise but very fragmented and the diverse "scientists" who simplified it by re-groupings didn't it in the same way one compared to another...

Yes and even when we have a precise qualification, nowadays this is used for hair colors with even combination of three numbers....

But even then it stays a matter of the eye of the beholder, I always thought I was dark blonde, but my hairdresser says no its medium blonde....(called it 8).



So let alone qualifications based on snp's....

 

[torzio]

Funny post of yours.
Colour is an external so very visible trait, so it's normal enough to look at it even if it's allover weight in geneteic making is very very light indeed. But it's partly mesological adaptative contraints is of some value for us and yet, this deserves some caution for causality concerning hairs and eyes.
Concerning changing colour, I can tell you that I never saw a lot of people with blond hair as a teenager becoming very dark brown (what I call blackish brown) or black haired. Sorry... As a whole, the most of the darkening is obtained around ten years, after that it darkens more slowly until, say, twenty years age, and then it darkens very very slowly until whitening.
It's possible that the lightening of hairs which appears NOT at birthdate but after some months, and is not so complete according to genetical background, would be kind of a mark for children among Humans.

in my family even with my grandsons....i first born regardless of sex is born pure blonde.............by the time he was 5yo he became light brown in colour

both parents are black hair ..........

same with myself, born blonde, then went mid brown by 6yo .........my first cousin ( though she remained blond until 31, she went to brown hair )

I ask again...........at what age does this hair colour count as being ones hair colour ?

 

[Philjames100]

Yep, the southern arc paper has a lot of information on phenotype. At this is point, it’s clear that the typical Nordic combination of light hair and blue eyes is the result of strong selection from the Bronze Age onwards.

Ok, but Scandinavian hunter-gatherers also had blond hair and blue eyes.

 

[Philjames100]

Deleted...

 

[ThirdTerm]

"The derived allele of the KITLG SNP rs12821256 that is associated with – and likely causal for – blond hair in Europeans is present in one hunter-gatherer from each of Samara, Motala and Ukraine, as well as several later individuals with Steppe ancestry. Since the allele is found in populations with EHG (Eastern European hunter-gatherer) but not WHG ancestry, it suggests that its origin is in the Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) population. Consistent with this, we observe that the earliest known individual with the derived allele (supported by two reads) is the ANE individual Afontova Gora which is directly dated to 16130-15749 cal BCE."

Afontova Gora 3 from Siberia may be the oldest human sample with blonde hair and EHG from Samara, Motala and Ukraine inherited her blonde gene. But KITLG (rs12821256) originated from ANE is not the only pigmentation gene associated with blonde hair in Europeans. There are several others such as SLC24A4 (rs4904868, rs2402130) and MC1R (rs1805005, rs885479), which may have been already present in some ancient populations outside today's Russia and Ukraine before they became common in Bronze Age Europe.

 

[MOESAN]

in my family even with my grandsons....i first born regardless of sex is born pure blonde.............by the time he was 5yo he became light brown in colour

both parents are black hair ..........

same with myself, born blonde, then went mid brown by 6yo .........my first cousin ( though she remained blond until 31, she went to brown hair )

I ask again...........at what age does this hair colour count as being ones hair colour ?

16 the most of people are unable to say the head hair colour of a baby hat birth! Only impressions. The most of the time, even light haired babies are thought to be dark or dark enough at birth, whatever the reality, because often their head hait at birth is agglutinated for diverse reason. We people say: he had light hair at birth, they speak of their baby around six months age or more. The most of the people are not interested in physical anthropology. I can tell you I knew a pretty young female with green eyes WHO told me HERSELF she had "marron" (dark brown) eyes! Nevertheless she combed her hair surely in front of a mirror!
The most of the adult rather dark haired people who say they had blond hair at birth had it infact about 6/12 months age, NOT AT BIRTH. and "brown" is a poor term for hair hues: what link between "very light brown" and "very dark brown"?
2- To answer your question, the most reliable age for hair colour would be between 20 and 40 years, roughly said.
It would be better to compare pop's at the same age, as for stature, even more than for stature. BTW the most of the old surveys have been made on military recrues. I never considered the surveys on pupils in school. That said, even this inaccurate late source of comparisons show regionally comparable differences between regions like on adults.

 

[MOESAN]

Have people ever looked at people before AND after they have plunged in water? Looked at pics of the same persons, with the sun in front of them or back them, and after in a badly lightened room? Hair colour is based for the most on transparency. So without same conditions, no worth.

 

[torzio]

16 the most of people are unable to say the head hair colour of a baby hat birth! Only impressions. The most of the time, even light haired babies are thought to be dark or dark enough at birth, whatever the reality, because often their head hait at birth is agglutinated for diverse reason. We people say: he had light hair at birth, they speak of their baby around six months age or more. The most of the people are not interested in physical anthropology. I can tell you I knew a pretty young female with green eyes WHO told me HERSELF she had "marron" (dark brown) eyes! Nevertheless she combed her hair surely in front of a mirror!
The most of the adult rather dark haired people who say they had blond hair at birth had it infact about 6/12 months age, NOT AT BIRTH. and "brown" is a poor term for hair hues: what link between "very light brown" and "very dark brown"?
2- To answer your question, the most reliable age for hair colour would be between 20 and 40 years, roughly said.
It would be better to compare pop's at the same age, as for stature, even more than for stature. BTW the most of the old surveys have been made on military recrues. I never considered the surveys on pupils in school. That said, even this inaccurate late source of comparisons show regionally comparable differences between regions like on adults.

of the 3 .............eye colour, hair colour and skin colour.............only Eye colour can be linked via dna to ones parents and ancestors ...................the other 2 has not much link

 

[Angela]

I don't know about anyone else's babies, but I know about mine.

My son: 1 month old, 9 months old, as a young boy.

Click to enlarge.I assure you that was black hair.
View attachment 13954

View attachment 13955


He now has honey colored hair and a reddish brown beard. His coloring is like my brother's.

The moral of the story is that we don't really understand the interplay of the various snps for depigmentation and the effect which various other triggers, like hormones, might have on the end result at different stages of life.

The same is true to some extent for skin de-pigmentation, although we can bet, from all the results I've seen, and the actual pigmentation of the testees, that having the two major de-pigmentation snps results in lighter skin than having just one. Still, lots of smaller effect snps still have a part to play.

 

[mount123]

I don't know about anyone else's babies, but I know about mine.

When I was a baby I too had dark hair once the baby hair shed happened golden blond hair started growing out.

Over time my hair has considerably darkened from blond to a light brown/ dark blond color my golden tint has also decreased over time.

Most people with light brown/ dark blond hair also experience photobleaching during spring and summer that can also change hair color temporarily.

 

[Angela]

Yes, it's called photosensitive hair. I have the snps for it, which means it makes my dark brown hair reddish, and both my children have it, which keeps their hair perhaps lighter than their genes would indicate.

Fwiw, my son's hair never fell out; it just got progressively lighter, to the great disappointment of my husband, who thought his son would share his hair color. It happens, even though dark hair is dominant. Both my husband and I carry recessive genes for light hair and eyes, especially my husband, whose sister is blonde and blue-eyed. People used to tell us they didn't look anything like us, but looked a lot like each other, but of course, most people only look at superficial things like coloring, not face shape, features etc. My husband and his sister look very much alike except for the nose, and, of course, the pigmentation.

 

[MOESAN]

I don't know about anyone else's babies, but I know about mine.

My son: 1 month old, 9 months old, as a young boy.

Click to enlarge.I assure you that was black hair.
View attachment 13954

View attachment 13955

View attachment 13959
He now has honey colored hair and a reddish brown beard. His coloring is like my brother's.

The moral of the story is that we don't really understand the interplay of the various snps for depigmentation and the effect which various other triggers, like hormones, might have on the end result at different stages of life.

The same is true to some extent for skin de-pigmentation, although we can bet, from all the results I've seen, and the actual pigmentation of the testees, that having the two major de-pigmentation snps results in lighter skin than having just one. Still, lots of smaller effect snps still have a part to play.

Sorry, Angel, tour attachments are invalid.
What I wrote is the general case. Sure during the gestation the mother's role could be important.
The general case, opposing neat hues for hair is rather as follows:
light haired adult: light every age of his life, with lighter colour since some months to first years. (for Finns, it could stay almost white almost the whole life).
dark haired adult: dark ar birth, lightening to midlle brown or even blond since some months to first years, darkening quickly after.
concerning the difficulty for SOMEONES to measure hair colour at birth, I maintain what I wrote.

 

[MOESAN]

of the 3 .............eye colour, hair colour and skin colour.............only Eye colour can be linked via dna to ones parents and ancestors ...................the other 2 has not much link

What you write is mistaking. What we can say is that hair and skin colour depend AND upon DNA heritage, AND upon other factors, among them sun exposure (skin) and age+ frequency of cuttings (hair). For the most body hair and eyebrows are more stable than head hair.

 

[Angela]

Sorry, Angel, tour attachments are invalid.
What I wrote is the general case. Sure during the gestation the mother's role could be important.
The general case, opposing neat hues for hair is rather as follows:
light haired adult: light every age of his life, with lighter colour since some months to first years. (for Finns, it could stay almost white almost the whole life).
dark haired adult: dark ar birth, lightening to midlle brown or even blond since some months to first years, darkening quickly after.
concerning the difficulty for SOMEONES to measure hair colour at birth, I maintain what I wrote.

As I said, it's not so simple, and we don't understand pigmentation completely. Nor should the rules which apply in very homogeneous populations be applied to those which are admixed.

My son at about three weeks old. There's no way anyone could mistake the color of his hair. It was BLACK!

It didn't fall out at all, getting so long that he needed a haircut by the time he was 6 months old, but it got progressively lighter.
[IM

It settled down to this color, and his beard is a reddish light brown.

 

[MOESAN]

As I said, it's not so simple, and we don't understand pigmentation completely. Nor should the rules which apply in very homogeneous populations be applied to those which are admixed.

My son at about three weeks old. There's no way anyone could mistake the color of his hair. It was BLACK!

It didn't fall out at all, getting so long that he needed a haircut by the time he was 6 months old, but it got progressively lighter.
[IM

It settled down to this color, and his beard is a reddish light brown.

Angela, I repeat what I wrote in my answer was the GENERAL CASE. I never put your personal affirmation here as doubius. The general rules in nature suffer some exceptions. Concerning the cause of these exceptions, I didn't propose an exhaustive bunch of causes, I have not the qualification to do it.

 

[MOESAN]

Angela you are not "someones"!

 

[Angela]

No problem, Moesan. We're good, as always.

It just so happens that every Sunday an Italian couple whose youtube channel I follow (Leave everything and Wander) posts a new video. They're Piemontese, but just bought an olive grove in Sicily with a beautiful view of the sea.

I did a double take on seeing their gorgeous daughter Luce again. She could be my son's twin when he was that age.

Click to enlarge.

View attachment 13962

The only difference is the blue of her eyes. Despite those blue eyes I think she'll look more like her mother Sara.

View attachment 13963

I'm aware a lot of babies resemble one another, but this resemblance is particularly close: the size and shape of the eyes, the nose, the face shape, the mouth, the color, texture and straightness of the hair, even the ears. I should send them a list of surnames from my family tree and see if there's a link somewhere.

 

[Omino]

No problem, Moesan. We're good, as always.

It just so happens that every Sunday an Italian couple whose youtube channel I follow (Leave everything and Wander) posts a new video. They're Piemontese, but just bought an olive grove in Sicily with a beautiful view of the sea.

I did a double take on seeing their gorgeous daughter Luce again. She could be my son's twin when he was that age.

Click to enlarge.

View attachment 13962

The only difference is the blue of her eyes. Despite those blue eyes I think she'll look more like her mother Sara.

View attachment 13963

I'm aware a lot of babies resemble one another, but this resemblance is particularly close: the size and shape of the eyes, the nose, the face shape, the mouth, the color, texture and straightness of the hair, even the ears. I should send them a list of surnames from my family tree and see if there's a link somewhere.

"Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator"

 

[Angela]

Sorry about that.

[/IMG]