Origin of blonde hair in Neolithic farmers.

[Anfänger]

When the article is right then the Tarim mummies are in fact an ANE offshoot either form Bronze or Iron Age. I see no direct relationship with Andronovo.

When the Tarin Mummies are in fact 'pure' ANE and nowadays Udmurts have the highest ANE ancestry amount and the highest percentage red heads, a relationship between genes for red hair c.q. some MCR1 variants, and ANE ancestry is not unimaginable!

The Tarim Mummies aren't a people but a natural phenomenon. If you would die in the tarim desert you would probably end up becoming a "tarim mummy". I´ve read the paper about the tarim mummies when it was published, they (TarimEBA) are like ~70% ANE + ~30% Northeastasian, so not pure ANE but very close to it. They resemble WSHGs further west. The mummies are dated to 2000 BC-400 AD and they possibly come from totally different populations, the earliest ones native non-IE, later Iranian and maybe also Tocharians. Just to name few Iranian peoples that lived there: Wusun, Saka and maybe Yuezhi. You can't just lump all together, there needs to be a case by case approach. Again, many mummies aren't even light haired but dark haired anyway. When talking about red hair in the tarim basin, you're probably thinking about the buddhist monk fresco from the 9th-century AD from the Bezeklik Caves near Turfan. That's way later when the oldest mummies and definitely a different populations from TarimEBA.

Also, you can't use modern populations like the Udmurts or any other to investigate the origin, they're too mixed. Indians have very high ANE ancestry or Iranians or Kets from Siberia. I am like 19% ANE in various calculators, that's above the average for modern Germans. Red hair in Udmurts is probably the result of a founder effect and/or selection.

Especially with R160W aka Arg160Trp with SNP rs1805008 has for sure a relationship with the steppe and in the end ANE?

See:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15p7MiR1UIsy8ySAbTKX-ju07Zhx3cPIroEmJmedeFvw/edit#gid=0

But it's not the only MCR1 variant, this is an old one from 23andme:

Just an educated guess but- seen neolithic France- could D294H have a relationship with this?

The same SNP(rs1805008) pops up in Neolithic France, too (Supplementary Table 15). I can think of two possibilities: Independent origin from one another or European farmers>Yamnaya.

Actually, I came back to this topic because of this video:

 

[Northener]

The Tarim Mummies aren't a people but a natural phenomenon. If you would die in the tarim desert you would probably end up becoming a "tarim mummy". I´ve read the paper about the tarim mummies when it was published, they (TarimEBA) are like ~70% ANE + ~30% Northeastasian, so not pure ANE but very close to it. They resemble WSHGs further west. The mummies are dated to 2000 BC-400 AD and they possibly come from totally different populations, the earliest ones native non-IE, later Iranian and maybe also Tocharians. Just to name few Iranian peoples that lived there: Wusun, Saka and maybe Yuezhi. You can't just lump all together, there needs to be a case by case approach. Again, many mummies aren't even light haired but dark haired anyway. When talking about red hair in the tarim basin, you're probably thinking about the buddhist monk fresco from the 9th-century AD from the Bezeklik Caves near Turfan. That's way later when the oldest mummies and definitely a different populations from TarimEBA.

Also, you can't use modern populations like the Udmurts or any other to investigate the origin, they're too mixed. Indians have very high ANE ancestry or Iranians or Kets from Siberia. I am like 19% ANE in various calculators, that's above the average for modern Germans. Red hair in Udmurts is probably the result of a founder effect and/or selection.

The same SNP(rs1805008) pops up in Neolithic France, too (Supplementary Table 15). I can think of two possibilities: Independent origin from one another or European farmers>Yamnaya.

Actually, I came back to this topic because of this video:

To be frankly I don't lump nothing together. All I do is observe that a population from the present (Udmurts) or the past (Tarim Mummies Bronze Age, Iron Age) with a high proportion of ANE ancestry also has a proportion of blond, red hair and a high proportion of green eyes, all high in pheomelanin (= MCR1 mutation). That is not proof, at the same time it does not seem to me to be a coincidence, no more and no less.

Furthermore, it is likely that depigmentation came from Anatolian Farmer/EEF. But MC1R variants causing pheomelanin variants also confer a susceptibility to skin cancer. My question is just how can this mutation originate in an environment in which the UV rates ensure that you have a very high risk of skin cancer?

It seems to me a question of logic reasoning when an amount of people with a MC1R variant get skin cancer then in the end this mutation is dead end street....

That seems to me to be the key question .... do you have an answer to that?



I guess the reason that in the Germano-Celtic range there is more red and warm blond hair mainly through the Steppe influx for example via the Single Grave and Bell Beakers all with a high steppe amount.

 

[Northener]

Chat GPT:

The origins of red hair are somewhat complex and not fully understood. There is evidence to suggest that the gene for red hair first arose in ancient North Eurasians, and then spread to other populations through migration and intermarriage. However, it's also possible that the gene for red hair arose independently in different populations around the world.

 

[Anfänger]

To be frankly I don't lump nothing together. All I do is observe that a population from the present (Udmurts) or the past (Tarim Mummies Bronze Age, Iron Age) with a high proportion of ANE ancestry also has a proportion of blond, red hair and a high proportion of green eyes, all high in pheomelanin (= MCR1 mutation). That is not proof, at the same time it does not seem to me to be a coincidence, no more and no less.

To be honest a discussion with you seems useless. You talk about studies where you cherry pick the results and it seems that you have barely even read them. First the Estonian study, now the Tarim study. There are no Tarim mummies from the Iron Age tested that's why the paper calls them TarimEMBA i.e Early Middle Bronze Age. Where are green eyes inferred for any ancient sample? I don't know of any. Again, you're coming up with modern populations like the Udmurts, complety nonsense I´ve already explained it. ANE is higher in India or southern Central Asia than anywhere in Europe. Founder effects, drift and selection can drive traits up and down over time. Today's ANE rates reflect exactly nothing when talking about the origin of a trait.

Furthermore, it is likely that depigmentation came from Anatolian Farmer/EEF. But MCR1 variants causing pheomelanin variants also confer a susceptibility to skin cancer. My question is just how can this mutation originate in an environment in which the UV rates ensure that you have a very high risk of skin cancer?

It seems to me a question of logic reasoning when an amount of people with a MCR1 variant get skin cancer then in the end this mutation is dead end street....

That seems to me to be the key question .... do you have an answer to that?

Also, you didn't watch the video I posted. Skin cancer has nothing to do with where red hair originates. Red haired people would already have reproduced before getting skin caner. There are other mechanism involved. There is an advantage for pale skin in northern latitudes and add to that a diet low in vitamin D, the advantage for pale skin(a side effect of red hair) goes up even more. That's why we see fast selection for depigmentation in Neolithic farmers and later steppe derived peoples like Corded ware or Bell Beakers in Northern Europe.

I guess the reason that in the Germano-Celtic range there is more red and warm blond hair mainly through the Steppe influx for example via the Single Grave and Bell Beakers all with a high steppe amount.

Same logic like above you're mixing modern populations and traits. Anyone, reading this can check the Yamnaya results and they will immediately know that you aren't honest. I know you saw those results. At least any sane person has the ability to read the studies and my posts and check for themselves.

Now, I know why most people here are annoyed at you. I'm out.

 

[torzio]

To be honest a discussion with you seems useless. You talk about studies where you cherry pick the results and it seems that you have barely even read them. First the Estonian study, now the Tarim study. There are no Tarim mummies from the Iron Age tested that's why the paper calls them TarimEBA i.e Early Bronze Age. Where are green eyes inferred for any ancient sample? I don't know of any. Again, you're coming up with modern populations like the Udmurts, complety nonsense I´ve already explained it. ANE is higher in India or southern Central Asia than anywhere in Europe. Founder effects, drift and selection can drive traits up and down over time. Today's ANE rates reflect exactly nothing when talking about the origin of a trait.




Now, I know why most people here are annoyed at you. I'm out.

one rarely sees green eyes mentioned in any samples be it ancient or modern...............they are noted as blue eyes , 90% of the time

plus these DNA testing companies rarely get green eyes correct....................even myself and my father , both green eyes are noted as 70% blue eyes and 30% green eyes................it is the exact same percentages that all my Blue eyed sons get

 

[Anfänger]

one rarely sees green eyes mentioned in any samples be it ancient or modern...............they are noted as blue eyes , 90% of the time
plus these DNA testing companies rarely get green eyes correct....................even myself and my father , both green eyes are noted as 70% blue eyes and 30% green eyes................it is the exact same percentages that all my Blue eyed sons get

I know that it’s a rhetorical question because he says that there are samples with high proportion of green eyes.

 

[Northener]

To be honest a discussion with you seems useless. You talk about studies where you cherry pick the results and it seems that you have barely even read them. First the Estonian study, now the Tarim study. There are no Tarim mummies from the Iron Age tested that's why the paper calls them TarimEBA i.e Early Bronze Age. Where are green eyes inferred for any ancient sample? I don't know of any. Again, you're coming up with modern populations like the Udmurts, complety nonsense I´ve already explained it. ANE is higher in India or southern Central Asia than anywhere in Europe. Founder effects, drift and selection can drive traits up and down over time. Today's ANE rates reflect exactly nothing when talking about the origin of a trait.

That's not cherry picking, that's making connections. Those connections can be right or wrong (that's the question). So if there are two populations now and in the EBA that have both a high level of ANE ancestry and a high level of pheomelanin in their pigmentation, then I make a connection between them. The assumption is then that there is a connection between ANE (ancestry) and pheomelanin. Incidentally, the same study on pigmentation that linked blond hair to EEF also linked green eyes to ANE.

Quote:

Finally, the Siberian ancestry is connected with .... most prominently, green eye color...

So why do you take the research seriously when it comes to the link between blond hair and EEF and not when it comes to green eyes (and therefore a high pheomelanin content) and ANE? That's what I call real cherry picking!

Also, you didn't watch the video I posted. Skin cancer has nothing to do with where red hair originates. Red haired people would already have reproduced before getting skin caner.

That is also not what I said. My point is that MCR1 increases the risk of skin cancer enormously. So how can the origin of red hair be in Anatolia? To use a metaphor, you might as well ask what the chance is that the skating sport originated in Anatolia. You understand? So I'm not ruling anything out I just want a reasonable answer. So putting the origin of the MCR1 mutation in an area where the UV rates are so high that people with that mutation are stuck with skin cancer seems to me to be against common sense. Besides skin cancer when Anatolian Farmers want to harvest and have that MCR1 mutation than they were within half an hour red meat (heavy sun burn, they can't tan!), so unable to work..... So again if I'm saying nonsense here and the logic is a different one, I'd like to hear that. But all I hear are accusations without argument.

There are other mechanism involved. There is an advantage for pale skin in northern latitudes and add to that a diet low in vitamin D, the advantage for pale skin(a side effect of red hair) goes up even more. That's why we see fast selection for depigmentation in Neolithic farmers and later steppe derived peoples like Corded ware or Bell Beakers in Northern Europe.

Agree and that's also the reason why ANE/Siberia with it's circumstances a more likely candidate for the origin and flourishing of the MCR1 mutation.

Same logic like above you're mixing modern populations and traits. Anyone, reading this can check the Yamnaya results and they will immediately know that you aren't honest. I know you saw those results. At least any sane person has the ability to read the studies and my posts and check for themselves.

Now, I know why most people here are annoyed at you. I'm out.

I see a lot of ad hominem and innuendo in this and little argumentation.

 

[Northener]

one rarely sees green eyes mentioned in any samples be it ancient or modern...............they are noted as blue eyes , 90% of the time
plus these DNA testing companies rarely get green eyes correct....................even myself and my father , both green eyes are noted as 70% blue eyes and 30% green eyes................it is the exact same percentages that all my Blue eyed sons get

Green eyes, see also the remarks of Moesan:

When I read green eyes are very seldom, I think we speek of pure green eyes. But I consider that other kinds of intermediate eyes exist, more numerous, which cannot be considered true light eyes of true dark eyes, like blue-grey-green eyes or brownish-green eyes...

What they have in common is high pheomelanin:


Green eyes have in common with blue eyes that the eumelanin (pigment for brown eyes) is low. So the SNP's responsible for blocking eumalanin are there in blue eyes as in green eyes.

 

[Northener]

Green eyes, see also the remarks of Moesan:

What they have in common is high pheomelanin:


Green eyes have in common with blue eyes that the eumelanin (pigment for brown eyes) is low. So the SNP's responsible for blocking eumalanin are there in blue eyes as in green eyes.

And an add to it. Two eyes with high pheomelanin.

My daughter five years old, kind of green-brown, bit hazel like, in the intermediate range of Moesan:



When I put a sample of her eye color in the color palette app I get this:


Based on this palette you can detect the color numbers.

The lightest color of her palette gets dark greyish orange:


The darkest color of her palette is very dark orange brown tone:


My own eyes:


My palette:


My lightest color is mostly desaturated dark orange:


My darkest color is very dark orange brown tone:


So the common orange as a pheomelanin pigment (reddish and yellowish) par excellence. But as you can also with different hues, in my daughters case also with some grey and I'm really on the border of the intermediate into brown.

But this seems to me de facto the color palette beneath the intermediate were Moesan was talking about.

Even amber falls beneath it:

Amber can be found in a wide range of colors, but most commonly, it’s some shade of a yellow-orange-brown mix.

What Causes Amber Eyes?
Just as it is with other eye colors, amber eyes are determined by genetics and the amount of melanin pigments in the eye. There are two types of melanin—eumelanin, which is dark brown-black, and pheomelanin (also called lipochrome), which is a lighter reddish-yellow. Most sources say that amber eyes comprise a higher level of pheomelanin, giving them their golden glow.

To give you an impression that not on eumelanin (or the lack of it) plays a big part in European eyes, hair and skin colors but also the amount of pheomelanin c.q lipochrome, MC1R derived.....

 

[Northener]

In another thread it was stated that Steppe people picked up blonde hair from Neolithic farmers, namely Funnelbeaker and Globular Amphora. Does anyone know where the farmers got it from? Did they get it from hunter-gatherers or did Neolithic Anatolians already have genes for blonde hair?

According to Mathieson et al. 2018:

"The derived allele of the KITLG SNP rs12821256 that is associated with – and likely causal for – blond hair in Europeans is present in one hunter-gatherer from each of Samara, Motala and Ukraine, as well as several later individuals with Steppe ancestry. Since the allele is found in populations with EHG (Eastern European hunter-gatherer) but not WHG ancestry, it suggests that its origin is in the Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) population. Consistent with this, we observe that the earliest known individual with the derived allele (supported by two reads) is the ANE individual Afontova Gora which is directly dated to 16130-15749 cal BCE."

- Mathieson et al. (2018), The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe, Supplementary material, p.51

I'm inclined to think that at least Ötzi with a high grade of Anatolian Farmer ancestry had no KITLG nor a MC1R variant.....https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...yrolean-Iceman?p=670542&viewfull=1#post670542