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Origin of the basques (revisit)

I'm sorry, I'm not following you here. May I ask where and from whom you heard about this method for plotting your ancestry in terms of the relationship between EEF, WHG and ANE?
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In terms of my comment about a north Balkan influence, obviously I was not speaking about anything necessarily within a genealogical time frame. However, in terms of pre-history, there are many postulated gene flows from the northern Balkans, among others, into northeastern Italy. I'm sure you're well aware of them. (Of course, there was gene flow from the Balkans into all of Italy, but that influence is stronger east of the Apennines, and in the northeast. I've seen the results of a number of northeastern Italians on 23andme, and that pull from the Balkans Balkans is clear in terms of where they plot, their "cousins" and other things.)

Doug agrees with you in what he told me, italian/austrian/slovenian area, even though he marked my 3 dots on his map to the french/italian/swiss borders

and history states that the balkans was attached to italy by land as far south as ancona!

As to Otzi's cultural affiliations, it is difficult to be too precise, because such conclusions are heavily based on ceramics, burial practices etc. among other things, and Otzi was killed in the mountains, not in his settlement. Some have speculated that he was a member of the Tamins-Carasso-Isera 5 Alpine culture, but it is just speculation so far. There were obviously also ties between Otzi's people and those of the Copper Age Remedello culture of northern Italy, as the blade is fashioned in the Remedello style.

What is beyond doubt, however, is that he was a man of the Copper Age, or, if you prefer, the late Neolithic. The age of the hunter-gatherers had long passed in this part of Europe. The fact that he happened to be hunting wild game, and had just gorged himself on the meat of these wild animals in no way contradicts that fact...hunting was often used in northern Italy and the greater Alpine regions to supplement the Neolithic diet. In addition, Oetzi may well have been on the run in these mountains, and merely using his survival skills.

One way we know that he was a man of the Neolithic, if it wasn't clear in other ways, is that his diet is Neolithic, as evidenced by analysis of his intestinal contents and by hair analysis as well.

From Wiki:

Analysis of Ötzi's intestinal contents showed two meals (the last one consumed about eight hours before his death), one of chamois meat, the other of red deer and herb bread. Both were eaten with grain as well as roots and fruits. The grain from both meals was a highly processed einkorn wheat bran,[15] quite possibly eaten in the form of bread. In the proximity of the body, and thus possibly originating from the Iceman's provisions, chaff and grains of einkorn and barley, and seeds of flax and poppy were discovered, as well as kernels of sloes (small plumlike fruits of the blackthorn tree) and various seeds of berries growing in the wild.[16] Hair analysis was used to examine his diet from several months before.

Hunter Gatherers didn't consume bread made of highly processed eikhorn wheat.

In addition:
Ötzi's teeth showed considerable internal deterioration from cavities. These oral pathologies may have been brought about by his grain-heavy, high carbohydrate diet.[22]

Analysis has also shown that:
By examining the proportions of Ötzi's tibia, femur and pelvis, Christopher Ruff has determined that Ötzi's lifestyle included long walks over hilly terrain. This degree of mobility is not characteristic of other Copper Age Europeans. Ruff proposes that this may indicate that Ötzi was a high-altitude shepherd.[19]

So, he may indeed have been a shepherd. Regardless, herding is a development from the Neolithic revolution. Hunter Gatherers were not herders. Domesticated animals had to be bred for hundreds if not thousands of years, and learning domestic animal managment required other hundreds of years. Herding was just the type of Neolithic economy that was practiced in marginal areas that weren't suited to Neolithic crops.

In addition:
High levels of both copper particles and arsenic were found in Ötzi's hair. This, along with Ötzi's copper axe which is 99.7% pure copper, has led scientists to speculate that Ötzi was involved in copper smelting.[18]

So, he might have been traveling because of his craft. Regardless, I don't see, given all this detailed evidence, how he wouldn't have been living in a farming community.

He probably did not trade for his copper items; he created them of either Alpine copper, or, as I have seen stated, copper from the Ligurian copper mines.
[/QUOTE]

What I am saying is....if he was a farmer he would be less likely to go travelling 100 of kilometres back and forth, these are signs he was something other than a farmer, we are talking about the alps and not some flat pastural lands
 
What I am saying is....if he was a farmer he would be less likely to go travelling 100 of kilometres back and forth, these are signs he was something other than a farmer, we are talking about the alps and not some flat pastural lands


Regularly traveled back and forth hundreds of kilometers? I'm not aware of any data which supports that.

Wiki...
"Analysis of pollen, dust grains and the isotopic composition of his tooth enamel indicates that he spent his childhood near the present village of Feldthurns, north of Bolzano, but later went to live in valleys about 50 kilometres farther north.[12]

Both of these areas are within Italy and south of the place where his body was found.

This is a map showing the track of the journey during which he died; why he made it will probably never be known:
http://donsmaps.com/images10/icemanmapsm.jpg

It's interesting that the Neolithic settlement area where it is speculated he might have lived is on a trade route. A menhir typical of the Copper Age has been found there...

This is the analysis of what some of the evidence has to say about his lifestyle:
"For his childhood, the researchers matched the oxygen-isotope ratios in tooth enamel to waters in a few valleys about 60 kilometers southeast of the discovery site. This area includes a copper-age archeological site Feldthurns, where soils closely match the strontium-lead isotopes in the Iceman's teeth. Feldthurns also features a menhir -- a one-piece stone carving -- typical of copper-age Europe, and it is here, Müller says, that Iceman may have called home, at least while a young sprout.

Although the study demonstrates the precision of isotopic analysis, it only paints a part of Iceman's life, Müller wrote. "Our data are consistent with the Iceman spending one to two months per year (decreasing over his life) as a shepherd herding sheep or goats at pastures at high altitudes, above the timber line. This 'transhumance' has been practiced for about six millennia in the Alps, as deduced from the pollen spectrum in bog profiles, and it is still performed today. The shepherd hypothesis has been a favored hypothesis of the Iceman's occupation for a few years, but it is not certain, of course."
http://whyfiles.org/shorties/140mummy_iceman/

As I said, it is possible that he spent a great deal of his time involved in the making of copper instruments, as well.


Btw, traversing many kilometers would be totally typical for someone practicing transhumant herding...and herding is just a sub-type of agriculture. Just as one example, the peasants of the Alpi Apuane used to graze their animals high in the mountains in the summer, and bring them back down to lower altitudes in the fall. Often, the very young, or the very old, were designated to watch the herds up in the mountains. At other times, larger groups would make the move. The same was true in the Ligurian Apennines and the Tuscan/Emilian Apennines. They took simple cheese making utensils with them for part of their sustenance.

They look sufficiently like mountains, yes?

Pastore Apuano with his herding dog...
apuano_aper.jpg


Transumanza:
transumanza-3-di-7.jpg




These are the kinds of rough dwellings in which they lived before they went back to their lower elevation villages. In Liguria it's called a casella.
casella_d0.jpg


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I'm just putting this picture because I like it!
transumanza_a_mendatica_-_mucche_e_campanacci_3_by_enrico_pelos.jpg


We're fond of our cows, and if we're fond of them, they too have to be prettied up...
 
casella_d0.jpg



That's the coolest stone igloo I've ever seen!
 
other forum


What I am saying is....if he was a farmer he would be less likely to go travelling 100 of kilometres back and forth, these are signs he was something other than a farmer, we are talking about the alps and not some flat pastural lands

I'm not sure what are you trying to say? He was a hunter therefore he was exclusively WHG? Or that he was typical Early European Farmer (with some WHG) who became a hunter as an occupation?
 
Regularly traveled back and forth hundreds of kilometers? I'm not aware of any data which supports that.

Wiki...
"Analysis of pollen, dust grains and the isotopic composition of his tooth enamel indicates that he spent his childhood near the present village of Feldthurns, north of Bolzano, but later went to live in valleys about 50 kilometres farther north.[12]

Both of these areas are within Italy and south of the place where his body was found.

This is a map showing the track of the journey during which he died; why he made it will probably never be known:
http://donsmaps.com/images10/icemanmapsm.jpg

It's interesting that the Neolithic settlement area where it is speculated he might have lived is on a trade route. A menhir typical of the Copper Age has been found there...

This is the analysis of what some of the evidence has to say about his lifestyle:
"For his childhood, the researchers matched the oxygen-isotope ratios in tooth enamel to waters in a few valleys about 60 kilometers southeast of the discovery site. This area includes a copper-age archeological site Feldthurns, where soils closely match the strontium-lead isotopes in the Iceman's teeth. Feldthurns also features a menhir -- a one-piece stone carving -- typical of copper-age Europe, and it is here, Müller says, that Iceman may have called home, at least while a young sprout.

Although the study demonstrates the precision of isotopic analysis, it only paints a part of Iceman's life, Müller wrote. "Our data are consistent with the Iceman spending one to two months per year (decreasing over his life) as a shepherd herding sheep or goats at pastures at high altitudes, above the timber line. This 'transhumance' has been practiced for about six millennia in the Alps, as deduced from the pollen spectrum in bog profiles, and it is still performed today. The shepherd hypothesis has been a favored hypothesis of the Iceman's occupation for a few years, but it is not certain, of course."
http://whyfiles.org/shorties/140mummy_iceman/

As I said, it is possible that he spent a great deal of his time involved in the making of copper instruments, as well.


Btw, traversing many kilometers would be totally typical for someone practicing transhumant herding...and herding is just a sub-type of agriculture. Just as one example, the peasants of the Alpi Apuane used to graze their animals high in the mountains in the summer, and bring them back down to lower altitudes in the fall. Often, the very young, or the very old, were designated to watch the herds up in the mountains. At other times, larger groups would make the move. The same was true in the Ligurian Apennines and the Tuscan/Emilian Apennines. They took simple cheese making utensils with them for part of their sustenance.

.

he died 100 kilometres away as the crow flies, 5000 years ago, maybe no tracks or paths what is he farming or herding

Uploaded with ImageShack.us
 
he died 100 kilometres away as the crow flies, 5000 years ago, maybe no tracks or paths what is he farming or herding

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I'm going to try this one last time. You began by saying he was a hunter-gatherer...that is absurd. No analysis of him or his culture has ever suggested any such thing. It would be a total anomaly given his time and place. Hunter gatherers hadn't been in this area for a thousand years or more. He was a man of the late Neolithic (as evidenced by his stomach contents among many other things) or perhaps said in a different way, the early Metal Ages, as evidenced by the fact that he carried a COPPER ax, and had high levels of arsenic in his blood. There is a huge difference between being a hunter-gatherer and being a late Neolithic man who HUNTS. I don't know how to make this any clearer.

As to what motivated his last back and forth trip into the mountains, no one knows. Numerous researchers have proposed numerous theories...perhaps he was fleeing from an enemy, perhaps he was part of a group that had been involved in a raiding party. These are just some of the proposed theories.

I've posted a few links up thread. A simple google search will produce many more. Perhaps you could read them and post your synopses on one of our Oetzi threads.

None
of that, however, has anything to do with the kind of culture within which he lived, which was a Late Neolithic one that grew crops and probably practiced transhumance, as well as being involved in metal working. Transumanza is the form of agriculture where people sow their crops in the lower elevations, but, in addition, drive their domesticated animals to high mountain pastures in the summer and then bring them back down to their settlements in the fall. It's been practiced in mountainous areas of Italy for thousands of years, all over Europe in marginal lands for that matter. I fail to see why this is a difficult concept to grasp.

We also know that Oetzi spent his entire life living in a few valleys south of the current Austria/Italy border.

And now, my patience for discussing this issue is at an end, and it is off-topic for this thread, to boot.
 
Oetzi turns out to be 51.9% "Southern" and 43.1% "Atlantic_Baltic" in the K=7 analysis, with noise levels of the other components. The salient point is that he seems to be lacking the "West Asian" component, unlike most Europeans, except Basques and Sardinians, who have:

Basques: 27.6% "Southern" and 69.5% "Atlantic_Baltic"
Sardinians: 46.2% "Southern" and 52% "Atlantic_Baltic"
http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2012/03/first-look-at-genome-of-tyrolean-iceman.html

I'm not sure, but I think Otzi would have higher EEF admixture than even Sardinians today, therefore genetically super farmer.
 
he died 100 kilometres away as the crow flies, 5000 years ago, maybe no tracks or paths what is he farming or herding

Uploaded with ImageShack.us


half nomadic herders are known to travel from two places back and forth depending on the season.

And as far as I know about Ötzi, scientist are pretty convinced that he was murdered while fleeing.
 
I'm going to try this one last time. You began by saying he was a hunter-gatherer...that is absurd. No analysis of him or his culture has ever suggested any such thing. It would be a total anomaly given his time and place. Hunter gatherers hadn't been in this area for a thousand years or more. He was a man of the late Neolithic (as evidenced by his stomach contents among many other things) or perhaps said in a different way, the early Metal Ages, as evidenced by the fact that he carried a COPPER ax, and had high levels of arsenic in his blood. There is a huge difference between being a hunter-gatherer and being a late Neolithic man who HUNTS. I don't know how to make this any clearer.

As to what motivated his last back and forth trip into the mountains, no one knows. Numerous researchers have proposed numerous theories...perhaps he was fleeing from an enemy, perhaps he was part of a group that had been involved in a raiding party. These are just some of the proposed theories.

I've posted a few links up thread. A simple google search will produce many more. Perhaps you could read them and post your synopses on one of our Oetzi threads.

None
of that, however, has anything to do with the kind of culture within which he lived, which was a Late Neolithic one that grew crops and probably practiced transhumance, as well as being involved in metal working. Transumanza is the form of agriculture where people sow their crops in the lower elevations, but, in addition, drive their domesticated animals to high mountain pastures in the summer and then bring them back down to their settlements in the fall. It's been practiced in mountainous areas of Italy for thousands of years, all over Europe in marginal lands for that matter. I fail to see why this is a difficult concept to grasp.

We also know that Oetzi spent his entire life living in a few valleys south of the current Austria/Italy border.

And now, my patience for discussing this issue is at an end, and it is off-topic for this thread, to boot.

I really do not know why you are upset,
Hunter-gathers did not just vanish overnight once farmers appeared.

Ok, he was a neolithic man that hunts, I accept that, but I cannot see anywhere where he "farmed" in a small area, he traveled, maybe swapping game for grain from farmers, etc...........the point is that he was known to have moved around a lot
 
I really do not know why you are upset,
Hunter-gathers did not just vanish overnight once farmers appeared.

Ok, he was a neolithic man that hunts, I accept that, but I cannot see anywhere where he "farmed" in a small area, he traveled, maybe swapping game for grain from farmers, etc...........the point is that he was known to have moved around a lot

It's his DNA, which is almost completely different from that of Mesolithic Hunters, which as we already know makes it completely impossible that he is simply an "acculturated" Hunter.
 
It's his DNA, which is almost completely different from that of Mesolithic Hunters, which as we already know makes it completely impossible that he is simply an "acculturated" Hunter.

Isn't this what we are talking about
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/9159/6g9k.png

WHG and WHG/ANE: indigenous European hunter-gatherers
EEF: mixed European/Near Eastern Neolithic farmers
ANE/WHG: Proto-Indo-European invaders from the Eastern European steppe
ENA/ANE: early Uralics from the Volga-Ural region
EEF/WHG/ANE: late Indo-Europeans (ie. Celts, Germanics and Slavs)


http://imageshack.com/a/img812/1967/pp61.png

Otzi early copper age 3,300BC and Stuttgart early Neolithic 5,500BC) had derived A/A alleles in rs1426554(in gene SLC24A5).
Loschbour(La Brana-1 may have been close) had 100% distinct fully European ancestry a form that laz 2013 found may only exist in Europe today. In northern Europe it is very high in at least north-eastern Europe Mesolithic ancestry is the majority.
Stuttgart and Otzi though had majority near eastern ancestry with some European hunter gatherer blood.


 
Isn't this what we are talking about
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/9159/6g9k.png

WHG and WHG/ANE: indigenous European hunter-gatherers
EEF: mixed European/Near Eastern Neolithic farmers
ANE/WHG: Proto-Indo-European invaders from the Eastern European steppe
ENA/ANE: early Uralics from the Volga-Ural region
EEF/WHG/ANE: late Indo-Europeans (ie. Celts, Germanics and Slavs)


http://imageshack.com/a/img812/1967/pp61.png

Otzi early copper age 3,300BC and Stuttgart early Neolithic 5,500BC) had derived A/A alleles in rs1426554(in gene SLC24A5).
Loschbour(La Brana-1 may have been close) had 100% distinct fully European ancestry a form that laz 2013 found may only exist in Europe today. In northern Europe it is very high in at least north-eastern Europe Mesolithic ancestry is the majority.
Stuttgart and Otzi though had majority near eastern ancestry with some European hunter gatherer blood.



I know what you are saying, it is correct for most but EEF is not a balanced mix of European and Near Eastern farmer. It's not 50/50.

It's more around the 80-90% Near Eastern farmer + 10-20% WHG admixture which they catch up first in the Balkans.

From your other posts it sounded like you tried to argue that Oetzi was not a farmer but basically a Hunter because he was traveling through the mountains.
 
I really do not know why you are upset,
Hunter-gathers did not just vanish overnight once farmers appeared.
Otzi lived 5,000 years after first farmers showed up in europe.

Why would you say overnight? I'm sure you know how long 5,000 years is.





Ok, he was a neolithic man that hunts, I accept that, but I cannot see anywhere where he "farmed" in a small area, he traveled, maybe swapping game for grain from farmers, etc...........the point is that he was known to have moved around a lot

Nobody would argue much if from beginning you said that he was genetically a neolithic farmer who was possibly hunting in the area.
 
I grew up the son of a farmer, and I used to hunt quite a bit. And I was born a few years after Otzi.
 
casella_d0.jpg



HAHAHAH ! J'agr?e.
 
@Martiko, I'm surprised you find them so surprising...I remember similar huts from Basque country very well...you can tell I was quite an avid hiker
smile.gif


This one on the Pilgrimage Way to Compostela isn't quite round, but the dry stone construction is, of course, identical...I've seen similar huts in the Balkans as well...quite a widespread phenomenon.

chemin046.jpg
 
Round "beehive" huts were still being used for storage in some parts of rural Canada in the late 20th century. I was told that the style was brought here by Scottish Highland and Irish settlers, and that at one time people used to keep small livestock such as sheep in such buildings, or even live in them. But I don't think there's necessarily a cultural connection between different groups in Europe that build in that style. It's a very easy way to make a building, and farmers would have lots of stones that they cleared from their fields.
 
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