Sile
Banned
- Messages
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- Location
- Australia
- Ethnic group
- North Alpine Italian
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
- mtDNA haplogroup
- H95a1 ..Pannoni
other forumI'm sorry, I'm not following you here. May I ask where and from whom you heard about this method for plotting your ancestry in terms of the relationship between EEF, WHG and ANE?
In terms of my comment about a north Balkan influence, obviously I was not speaking about anything necessarily within a genealogical time frame. However, in terms of pre-history, there are many postulated gene flows from the northern Balkans, among others, into northeastern Italy. I'm sure you're well aware of them. (Of course, there was gene flow from the Balkans into all of Italy, but that influence is stronger east of the Apennines, and in the northeast. I've seen the results of a number of northeastern Italians on 23andme, and that pull from the Balkans Balkans is clear in terms of where they plot, their "cousins" and other things.)
Doug agrees with you in what he told me, italian/austrian/slovenian area, even though he marked my 3 dots on his map to the french/italian/swiss borders
and history states that the balkans was attached to italy by land as far south as ancona!
[/QUOTE]As to Otzi's cultural affiliations, it is difficult to be too precise, because such conclusions are heavily based on ceramics, burial practices etc. among other things, and Otzi was killed in the mountains, not in his settlement. Some have speculated that he was a member of the Tamins-Carasso-Isera 5 Alpine culture, but it is just speculation so far. There were obviously also ties between Otzi's people and those of the Copper Age Remedello culture of northern Italy, as the blade is fashioned in the Remedello style.
What is beyond doubt, however, is that he was a man of the Copper Age, or, if you prefer, the late Neolithic. The age of the hunter-gatherers had long passed in this part of Europe. The fact that he happened to be hunting wild game, and had just gorged himself on the meat of these wild animals in no way contradicts that fact...hunting was often used in northern Italy and the greater Alpine regions to supplement the Neolithic diet. In addition, Oetzi may well have been on the run in these mountains, and merely using his survival skills.
One way we know that he was a man of the Neolithic, if it wasn't clear in other ways, is that his diet is Neolithic, as evidenced by analysis of his intestinal contents and by hair analysis as well.
From Wiki:
Analysis of Ötzi's intestinal contents showed two meals (the last one consumed about eight hours before his death), one of chamois meat, the other of red deer and herb bread. Both were eaten with grain as well as roots and fruits. The grain from both meals was a highly processed einkorn wheat bran,[15] quite possibly eaten in the form of bread. In the proximity of the body, and thus possibly originating from the Iceman's provisions, chaff and grains of einkorn and barley, and seeds of flax and poppy were discovered, as well as kernels of sloes (small plumlike fruits of the blackthorn tree) and various seeds of berries growing in the wild.[16] Hair analysis was used to examine his diet from several months before.
Hunter Gatherers didn't consume bread made of highly processed eikhorn wheat.
In addition:
Ötzi's teeth showed considerable internal deterioration from cavities. These oral pathologies may have been brought about by his grain-heavy, high carbohydrate diet.[22]
Analysis has also shown that:
By examining the proportions of Ötzi's tibia, femur and pelvis, Christopher Ruff has determined that Ötzi's lifestyle included long walks over hilly terrain. This degree of mobility is not characteristic of other Copper Age Europeans. Ruff proposes that this may indicate that Ötzi was a high-altitude shepherd.[19]
So, he may indeed have been a shepherd. Regardless, herding is a development from the Neolithic revolution. Hunter Gatherers were not herders. Domesticated animals had to be bred for hundreds if not thousands of years, and learning domestic animal managment required other hundreds of years. Herding was just the type of Neolithic economy that was practiced in marginal areas that weren't suited to Neolithic crops.
In addition:
High levels of both copper particles and arsenic were found in Ötzi's hair. This, along with Ötzi's copper axe which is 99.7% pure copper, has led scientists to speculate that Ötzi was involved in copper smelting.[18]
So, he might have been traveling because of his craft. Regardless, I don't see, given all this detailed evidence, how he wouldn't have been living in a farming community.
He probably did not trade for his copper items; he created them of either Alpine copper, or, as I have seen stated, copper from the Ligurian copper mines.
What I am saying is....if he was a farmer he would be less likely to go travelling 100 of kilometres back and forth, these are signs he was something other than a farmer, we are talking about the alps and not some flat pastural lands
