Paedophiles, Justice and prison sentences...

[Hachiro]

Chances are the victom was guilty of sin to begin with.

Now I know for sure that you are just trolling here. Bye Bye:angryfire

 

[SortOf]

Im not trolling im truthfully stating my opinion, however unpopular it may be. Thats the problem with todays society, unwillingness to accept eccentic opinions. You may call me a troll, but im not, I 100% support everything I have said and would sign my name to it if needed.

 

[Hachiro]

Im not trolling im truthfully stating my opinion, however unpopular it may be. Thats the problem with todays society, unwillingness to accept eccentic opinions. You may call me a troll, but im not, I 100% support everything I have said and would sign my name to it if needed.

Let me say one last thing in reply to you.......an internet troll is this;

An "Internet troll" or "Forum Troll" is a person who posts outrageous message to bait people to answer. Forum Troll delights in sowing discord on the forums. A troll is someone who inspires flaming rhetoric, someone who is purposely provoking and pulling people into flaming discussion.

and

troll is trying to make us believe that he is a skeptic. He is divisive and argumentative with need-to-be-right attitude, "searching for the truth", flaming discussion, and sometimes insulting people or provoking people to insult him.

and
http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm#WIAT

You fit all the definitions included.....if someone else wants to answer you thats fine by me, but I am done with you on this thread.

 

[KrazyKat]

I am deeply offended by what SortOf is saying here, at least as far as I can take him seriously.
A victim of rape is just as much to blame as a rapist?
Rapists shouldn't be punished because they will be punished in Hell?
Prostitutes only work in the sex trade because they are lazy?

Dawkins said something like "Good people do good things. Bad people do bad things. Only religion can make Good people do bad things." I think we may have a case of that here.

Many porstitutes don't have any choice? Have a read of some of Amnesty's information on trafficing. http://www.amnesty.org.uk/sextraffic/index.shtml

To suggest that any crime is a victims fault stikes me as being insane. Nobody deserves to be raped. If a woman or man has lots of sexual partners that doen't make it any more acceptable to rape them! And neither is it even a crime! Rape is a serious crime that can cause severe emotional and physical damage, and even pregnancy. To call it 'not really a big deal' is extrememly insulting and offensive.

To suggest that people shouldn't be punished because they will be in Hell doens't even make any sense. The point of the justice system is to act as a deterrent to prevent crimes, and then to prevent repeat offences. It can also be used to enact revenge, whether or not that is a good thing. In the first place how is divine punishment going to deter Athiests in any way? If all acts should only recieve their rewards and punishments after death then we would be under no obligation to punish anyone for anything. Lets just let Sadam go free, he'll get his punsihment in Hell after all!?!

I recommend making an appointment with a mental health professional, you need to get yourself sorted out because at the moment you are a threat to everyone around you.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I agree with KrazyKat, your opinions/views SortOf are very narrow-minded/arrogant and ignorant, aside from being from being offensive. Its not that i believe they are wrong(which i do, but anyways..), but i do not think you have thought them out well and thoroughly enough- they have many flaws from almost any veiwpoint you at them from.

 

[Hachiro]

I agree with KrazyKat, your opinions/views SortOf are very narrow-minded/arrogant and ignorant, aside from being from being offensive. Its not that i believe they are wrong(which i do, but anyways..), but i do not think you have thought them out well and thoroughly enough- they have many flaws from almost any veiwpoint you at them from.

Tokis, the posts that Sort of made on this thread tend to make me think that he is either a troll just "stirring the poo" as his profile reads under occupation or a rather disturbed person.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/member.php?u=19757

I find it difficult to believe that any "18" year old person could have views that drastic. Unless of course they were brainwashed in a cult commune environment from birth.

I fear that if Sort of and his "way" of thinking are an example of what the "religious-right" is teaching their children than the world is going to be a much less safer place to live in, in the not too distant future.

 

[Clawn]

"Good people do good things. Bad people do bad things. Only religion can make Good people do bad things."

KrazyKat, first off, I must disagree with you on that point. Greed, passion, lust, anger, stress, etc. can cause even the best of us to do bad things. As well, we must remember that "good" and "bad" mean different things to different people.

Other than that, I generally agree with what is being said here. Only in extremely rare circumstances should the victim be grouped together with the aggressor as at fault. I believe that those pedophiles that rape and/or sexually abuse/harass children should be punished. Harshly.

 

[yidaki]

[_ _ _]
Think about this is, murder an act of a sane person?
[_ _ _]

Exactly, murder is usually done by people who aren't psychologically stable.
When it's an accident, or 'crime of passion', it's not murder but manslaughter.

People who plan to murder someone for months/yrs, and then go through with it,
are crazy. Just look at the assassins of JFK and John Lennon.

I'm not sure where that puts soldiers of war,
but it's no wonder they need eternal therapeutic consolation.
Killing someone is not a small ordeal.

Considering how society wants to sanction child molestation and murderers,
they are equal in severity and should go to the same place;
which imho is an institution for the criminally insane.
Sending insane people to prison is useless,
they won't learn anything by it,
and it would make it ok to send children to prisons aswell.

 

[Hachiro]

Considering how society wants to sanction child molestation and murderers,they are equal in severity and should go to the same place;
which imho is an institution for the criminally insane.
Sending insane people to prison is useless,they won't learn anything by it,
and it would make it ok to send children to prisons aswell.

Then what would you do with them?

 

[SortOf]

A good spanking and the removal of some fingers.

 

[yidaki]

Then what would you do with them?

With who? Children who commit crimes?
To a juvenile correction facility,
where they are socialised into society like proper adults.

Insane people usually go to asylums.
Sane people don't go to asylums.
So when an insane person is corrected to fit the standard of society, he gets out. That's why it can be a life sentence, some people just never learn.

Sending a murderer to prison for 15yrs,
means that you'll have a murderer coming out of prison in 15yrs.
It doesn't help anyone.

Child molestors probably have some deep issues to deal with, being molested themselves, seeing it as normal, loving, behaviour. They need help. As do the children ofcourse, so that they don't become traumatised and go out to become sinister adults themselves.

 

[SortOf]

Thats what a shrink is for, actually.

 

[KrazyKat]

KrazyKat, first off, I must disagree with you on that point. Greed, passion, lust, anger, stress, etc. can cause even the best of us to do bad things.

This is getting way off topic here, so I'll only briefly explain what I was trying to say. First of all my opinions, don't excalty reflect the words of the quote, especially in the word 'only', any system based on faith rather than reason could have this effect. Of course greed and lust can make people do bad things, but what I'm trying to say is that Religion can cause people to do bad things, while all along believing that what they are doing is right. Thats what I think the quote is getting at when it says 'bad people do bad things'. If any good person is overcome by greed etc. and does something bad, they will surely consider themselves as have being 'bad'. And how much that happens would have no connection to religion at all, but the morals of society.

As well, we must remember that "good" and "bad" mean different things to different people.

hehe, very philosiphical. I like utilitarianism, but I haven't studied enough to be sure of it yet. :blush:

And my contribution to the main topic: I think criminals need help, not punishment, although the presence of a deterrent is also necessary.

 

[Hachiro]

I think criminals need help, not punishment, although the presence of a deterrent is also necessary.

What deterent would be "enough" per say to stop a predator? Worldwide one can find examples of people using and abusing children.

IMO there is no deterent stringent enough beyond the possiblity of public humilitation, lengthly prison sentences, and or the death penalty, depending on the severity of the crime.

 

[Hachiro]

......Sane people don't go to asylums.
So when an insane person is corrected to fit the standard of society, he gets out. That's why it can be a life sentence, some people just never learn.
Sending a murderer to prison for 15yrs, means that you'll have a murderer coming out of prison in 15yrs. It doesn't help anyone. Child molestors probably have some deep issues to deal with, being molested themselves, seeing it as normal, loving, behaviour. They need help. As do the children ofcourse, so that they don't become traumatised and go out to become sinister adults themselves.

There are many mentally disturbed people in the world, yet through identification and treatment, many are helped as well. Not all disturbed people commit crimes such as this. I also find it disturbing that society allows these predators to use an insanity defense as a means to get away from going to prison for their crimes. I wonder how many actually stay in an asylum for the rest of their lives and the ones that do get out repeat the same crime for what they were placed in an insitution for?

Sorry about that I was refering to the adults and not the children. How can one guaruntee that a sexual predator will not commit the same crimes again once released from either an asylum or prison? There is none that I know of, do you?

 

[Tsuyoiko]

I have to agree with Yidaki on most everything here. I have always felt that any violent crime against children just has to be insane.

I also think that if considered so, the possibility of their being released is much less - they would have to prove that they have been cured of their insanity, rather than just serve their time.

Think of it this way - what better deterrent could there be against child abuse than the knowledge that on proving guilty you would automatically be deemed insane and sent to an asylum where you would stay until you are proved sane? Any trial would just have to prove the person's guilt. There would be no need for sentencing as if the person is proven guilty they would be locked up indefinitely.

The same would go for other violent crimes - such as serial killing, patricide and serial rape. For any serious violent crime I would suggest one repeat crime should be enough for an insanity verdict. I certainly don't like the idea of a society in which it is considered mentally healthy to force someone to have sex with you - once might be a terrible mistake, but not twice.

Offtopic, but on the rape issue, is a woman ever 'asking for it'? I can certainly envisage a situation in which a woman takes a man to 'the point of no return' then changes her mind, although I doubt that is a common occurrence. I would feel some sympathy for the man in that situation - although after the fact any decent man would be racked with guilt and would show remorse.

If a man solicits a prostitute and refuses to pay the fee it is rape and he should face the consequences. Prostitutes provide a good service to men who might otherwise have little chance of fulfilling their desires and they should have every right to earn a living in this way if they so choose. Also, many prostitutes have been forced into the profession (particularly young girls) and we certainly shouldn't condemn them.

Dressing provocatively doesn't give a man any right to rape a woman - I think most of us like to show a bit of skin in summer, and we have every right to do so. As Hachiro says, men like to go shirtless in summer too, and I don't think I've heard anyone accuse such a man of being provocative.

The same goes for promiscuous women. If a woman chooses to have lots of partners, that's her choice (although I would consider it a dubious one), and doesn't give anyone the right to take that choice away from her.

 

[kirei_na_me]

Kudos for Tsuyoiko! Once again, she's summed up how I feel perfectly.

I think we were separated at birth, Tsuyoiko!

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

With who? Children who commit crimes?
To a juvenile correction facility,
where they are socialised into society like proper adults.
Insane people usually go to asylums.
Sane people don't go to asylums.
So when an insane person is corrected to fit the standard of society, he gets out. That's why it can be a life sentence, some people just never learn.
Sending a murderer to prison for 15yrs,
means that you'll have a murderer coming out of prison in 15yrs.
It doesn't help anyone.
Child molestors probably have some deep issues to deal with, being molested themselves, seeing it as normal, loving, behaviour. They need help. As do the children ofcourse, so that they don't become traumatised and go out to become sinister adults themselves.

Paedophiles are not insane, they just have a chemical imbalance that messes up their sex drive and makes them attracted to children- this is not insanity in the same way that being gay is not insanity, its just a sexual imbalance. The key to curing paedophiles i believe is not to send them to an asylum, but to castrate them to take away the sex drive. It probably sounds harsh, but i actually believe it would be a very effective way of getting rid of a paedophiles urge to have sex with children. Having sex with or being attracted to a child for a paedophile is not a psychological factor or type of insanity, its the sex drive gone wrong, which is an urge.

 

[SortOf]

Offtopic, but on the rape issue, is a woman ever 'asking for it'? I can certainly envisage a situation in which a woman takes a man to 'the point of no return' then changes her mind, although I doubt that is a common occurrence. I would feel some sympathy for the man in that situation - although after the fact any decent man would be racked with guilt and would show remorse.

Thats one simple thing, its called the woman lacking common sense, and the man should not be punished for it ever. The woman is to blame for getting the man in that state and to think he is going to stop just because she says to is highly unlikely.

If a man solicits a prostitute and refuses to pay the fee it is rape and he should face the consequences. Prostitutes provide a good service to men who might otherwise have little chance of fulfilling their desires and they should have every right to earn a living in this way if they so choose. Also, many prostitutes have been forced into the profession (particularly young girls) and we certainly shouldn't condemn them.

Prostitutes also operate an illegal business in the states (except in Nevada, and small parts of Texas). And how is it rape honestly? How is someone who goes around having sex and smoking crack every day be consitered equal to anyone else? Yeah the laws say this, and they say that, but an upstanding citized isnt going to get anything but a slap on the hand for raping a prostitute, and she is going to be sent to prison for being a prostitute in the first place, ive seen it happen many times.

Dont get me wrong though, I do support prostitution in fact I celebrated my 18th birthday in Nevada, but those are professionals, not street, crack people. My brother actually got busted in Chicago because a police woman was posing as a prostitute.

Dressing provocatively doesn't give a man any right to rape a woman - I think most of us like to show a bit of skin in summer, and we have every right to do so. As Hachiro says, men like to go shirtless in summer too, and I don't think I've heard anyone accuse such a man of being provocative.
The same goes for promiscuous women. If a woman chooses to have lots of partners, that's her choice (although I would consider it a dubious one), and doesn't give anyone the right to take that choice away from her.

Yes all woman have the "right" to dress that way, and the "right" to sleep around, but im definatly not going to feel sorry for a woman who does this as she was tempting fate by doing it in the first place. Its like hoping through a mine field on a pogo stick, your tempting fate.

 

[Reiku]

Paedophiles are not insane, they just have a chemical imbalance that messes up their sex drive and makes them attracted to children- this is not insanity in the same way that being gay is not insanity, its just a sexual imbalance. The key to curing paedophiles i believe is not to send them to an asylum, but to castrate them to take away the sex drive. It probably sounds harsh, but i actually believe it would be a very effective way of getting rid of a paedophiles urge to have sex with children. Having sex with or being attracted to a child for a paedophile is not a psychological factor or type of insanity, its the sex drive gone wrong, which is an urge.

For the record, castration doesn't work unless it's done before puberty--otherwise the sex drive has already developed. Besides, most sexual preditors aren't doing it for the sex, they're doing it for power, control, or to inflict pain on others.

Also, I have to say I don't really buy into the whole "they have a chemical imbalance in their brains" explanation that seems to be coming out for everything lately.

Yes, that may be the case for some people, but I'm willing to bet that some pedophiles just like kids--or maybe something happened to them that messed with the way their mind works. Even if their is a detectable differance in the levels of various psychoactive chemicals, that could be the result of the behavior or thought process and not the cause.

Look at it this way: If you punch me in the face, and then my brain shows a chemical pattern consistant with rage disorders, am I angry because of a chemical imbalance or just pissed that you hit me?

Blaming every abnormal behavior from pedophillia to love (I'm not making this up, there was a whole article about it in National Geographic) on chemical imblances is just an excuse to medicate people when you don't like their behavior.

(I believe it was prozac they were pimping in the National Geo article)

That little rant being said, I really don't think we should be punishing criminals.

WTF DID HE JUST SAY!?!?!?

Seriously, it works for little kids--sometimes--but if you're still hitting your sister and sticking your hand in the cookie jar when you're all growed up then obviously punishment isn't working for you.

The only reasons to punish criminals is to teach them not to do whatever it is they did and to discourage other people from trying to do the same thing, but if we haven't taught a person that such and such behvior isn't OK by adulthood, then I think a better use of law enforcement resources would be in actually enforcing the law--keeping people from breaking it in the first place.

What we do now isn't enforcement, it's just threatening.

"Yeah, go ahead and shoot that person, rob this bank, molest that kid--we won't stop you--we'll just kick your butt afterwords."

Well, if the person's willing to risk a legal buttkicking for it or just doesn't think about the consequences beforehand (often the case with crimes like murder, rape and child molestation) then a threat just isn't going to stop them.

Seems kind of bass ackwards to me...