Paleo Balkan Languages

[Nik]

What are you talking about. There is no such medieval Moesian migration ever document or theorised about. Albanian is not a "hybrid" or creole language. Its possible that some vocabulary was added from a small group of moesians, if we ever have any evidence of such a migration, but not that some "hybridization" happened, which is linguistically fantastical. There is no tradition or argument on which to base the theory that Albanian comes from medieval Moesians.


How are any of you guys deeming yourself fit to speak on the history of paleo balkan languages of the first century with such glaring contradictions and straight up ignorance on the only surviving paleo balkan language?

Most hypocritical thing is to use matzinger without even reading him. How come in his papers (they are either in Albanian or German) he says that no conclusive remarks can be made about Illyrian since we have no inscriptions
and some uncertain glosses only? How come in the Tabloids he is making bombastic closed case statements about Albanian being a "polar opposite".

Aggressive! Relax a bit. You should do more reading and less writing, otherwise you fall into what we Albanians say "mos fluturo me pras ne bythe". If you read carefully, I said that Albanian doesn't come from Moesians, but anyone proficient in Albanian and its dialects might easily know that there were migration waves from Moesia/Dardania/Kosovo towards modern Albania.

And of course you indirectly know this too, but are too busy being sensitive. The upper North Albania is almost entirely inhabited by tribes that came from further North (using jam kan/kon is 1 feature), while the Southern Ghegs maintained "kam qan/qon" as well as Shkodra "kam ken" although everyone around Shkodra says "jam ken/kjen", with the exception of Ulqini and its surround regions like Kraja who kept an even more archaic "non-Moesian/Dardanian" influenced version of their dialect similar in many ways to Labs, Cams, and Arvanites, features that the other Ghegs don't have. If you're interested, do some digging and find that these "Moesian/Dardanian" wave affected even the speech of Laberia in the South where words such as miki, krushki, etc. were recorded, which are versions used in Kosovo.

That is enough proof to discard the Serbian nationalist claims that Kosovo was repopulated by North Albanians during the Ottoman times when in fact the demic migrations followed the opposite direction as we currently know from genetics and yDna results.

And of course that you indirectly know that these "Moesian/Dardanians" and the local Albanians replaced each other step by step as you go South, ending up massively populating Thessaly then Attica, Peloponnese, and even comprising up to 1/3 of the Greek islands population (according to some sources, but don't kill me if they're not that accurate as it's not part of the topic and I can't be bothered to find them).

The idea behind this is that the territories of modern Albania and Epirus were already populated with enough Albanians to have caused such a demic migration, they didn't just sprung from a bunch of Moesian shepherds and ended up filling empty lands starting from Herzegovina, Lika, Dalmatia, Montenegro, Albania, Epirus, Acarnania, Aetolia, Thessaly, Attica, Peloponnese, Slavic Macedonia, eastern parts of the Greek Makedonia, not to mention then Italy later on.

Only an anti-Albanian mind would justify the sudden appearance of millions of well hidden Moesian shepherds who managed to absorb and assimilate like the snowball effect millions of urbanized and more civilized local Romans/Vlachs, Slavs, Bulgars, and Greeks, in territories actually ruled by them and with Slavic and Greek as official languages.

 

[Ygorcs]

Excuse me, but what you find unlikely is of no matter. You are an amateur that has almost no exposure to the paleo-balkan languages prior to your engagements with us on eupedia. You aren't exposed to even the most
basic Albanian history and yet you posture and present yourself as an authority on these matters..

Really? Wow what a surprise, am I an amateur? Who would've thought that, particularly in a forum full of scholars and renowned experts in their respective linguistic and genetic fields, right? LOL. I'm pretty sure that you must think that other people have opinions that are of no matter, but yours are just factual truths expressed through words. I just write my opinions and questions on this subject in this public forum. If that sounds like "posturing and presenting yourself as an authority" to you, I can see how open to divergence and to even basic respectful debates you are. I never took the aggressive, sarcastic and arrogant posture that you have on these matters - now that is what can be described as "posturing as an authority" (or rather as an authoritarian petty dictator, not an authority).

The way you guys take these discussions personally is so childish and petty that I can only laugh at such narrow-mindedness. Get a grip, man, you're in an amateur forum for people who have an interest in subjects like history, genetics, linguistics and so on, so everything you said about me applies just as well to you and is not offensive at all, because I'm fully aware of what I am or not, and what I know or not. I'm here to learn, debate and have some intellectual fun, not to fight in a ridiculous "ethnic war" like you guys. Not all people here (certainly not me) have the delusions of grandeur and the ludicrous "crusading" spirit that you and a few others seem to have. Perhaps you're talking yourself too seriously.

Just on a final note: I did not even say the "Moesian hypothesis" is stronger, I just said that the sourced evidences you yourself posted do not contradict that possibility, so this question still seems to be up for discussion and further investigation. If you don't think so, just explain why you think so and present the counter-evidences, it's a really simple thing... or it should be if you didn't decide that even any minor disagreement with you is a personal attack and a dangerous misnformation that must be annihilated.

But let me say: you should spare your venom and your weapons to fight against a true enemy of yours, okay? With me it won't work, I have no horse on this race, and I'm just trying to understand the complex linguistic history of the Balkan - oh, and I'm also fully aware that, no matter what you and other people here think, there is no scientific consensus at all about the specific geographic and ethnic origin of Modern Albanian (even among those who think it's certain that Albanian descends from the Illyrian language family, because Illyrian may not have been one homogeneous language by the Late Antiquity).

So I'm sorry, but you won't silence people who want to discuss this matter as they do to many other topics. And if you complain in this personal and demeaning way again, you'll receive an infraction (which I hardly ever do, but you're taking this discussion to an ad hominem level that I won't keep tolerating any longer).

 

[Ygorcs]

Greeks find continuity while Albanians are lost for words.....Dna has no say here....even for Lazaridis that now becomes linguistic considering that his beginnings he was an IT guy.....


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Does anyone in the (serious, without clear personal/national agendas) scientific community even deny the ethnic continuity of Albanians these days? AFAIK the only issue at stake is where exactly the speakers of the direct ancestor of Modern Albanian lived (and keep in mind language is not the same as DNA ancestry), if a bit to the south, a bit to the north, a bit to the east or the west, whatever, and what ancient ethnic/tribal group best represents them - but nonetheless they're always placed in the Balkans and always in or in the vicinity of the modern territory of the state named Albania, so the one and only consensus is that they are indeed Paleo-Balkanic people and have a direct continuity to some ancient population of the Iron Age Balkans.

I honestly do not get why people get so absurdly passionate (and even offensive) at the mere suggestion that perhaps Proto-Albanian was spoken first in modern North Albania and Kosovo. Aren't those Albanian-speaking areas even now? It's not like that hypothesis even means that all the ancestry of Albanians came from there (because people can shift and absorb another language without any major genetic replacement, as you know), but just that the origin of the modern language may have been a bit to the northeast of its present "core", and of course it's totally possible that that language was also Illyrian and that it was absorbed by the non-Romanized Illyrians elsewhere during the Late Antiquity and Middle Ages. To think that Proto-Albanian was spoken uniformly throughout the huge area from Epirus to Dalmatia sounds a bit naive to me. Modern Albanian certainly derives from one specific dialect/language in that dialect continuum, even if we consider that it be unquestionably Illyrian.

 

[Ygorcs]

And i'll comment this, you haven't read matzinger either, so why do you posture as if you understand this moesia argument as being stronger. I have read matzinger. His argument is extremely weak.

Firstly, he argues that Illyrian doesn't have enough inscriptions to the similarity to Albanian names could be coincidental (wow nice, doesn't seem to be too little to go saying things like "complete opposite" in tabloids though)..

Who on earth even told you I base my open curiosity about this topic which STILL LACKS a scientific consensus (no matter what you want to believe) on Matzinger? You're talking as if I think Matzinger's theory is super cool and can only be the one perfect truth. For instance, I don't think the specific location (much to the north and east) proposed by Orel or by Russu looked likely, so I don't take them into account much or at all. But I think the Moesia Superior/Dardania initial location is at least open to discussion, considering some evidences (relations to Macedonian, Serbian and FYROM cities with old Albanian phonetic laws, strong connections to both Eastern and Western Proto-Romance, words similar to the Romanian substrate - and Romanian probably did not arise first in Romania, but to its west i.e. around present-day Serbia, etc.).

Despite your aggressive and fervorous stance on this topic, which clearly is not just about intellectual curiosity, I'm just open to discuss the hypotheses that look at least plausible, because I have no nationalist agenda to defend unlike you guys, who are oh so impartial and neutral on this matter. I'm fully prepared to review my stances and to learn more as I read better text sources and get acquainted with more evidences. My personal impressions on this topic are shaped by many different texts I have read (including some that you yourself posted and/or linked), as well as by texts on the origins of Romanian and its non-Italic substrate as well as about the development of Proto-Romance in the Balkans. And, just to reinforce it, Matzinger had virtually no role in shaping my still formative position on this matter.

It's, however, baffling how you Albanian nationalists manage to destroy any sort of harmless (even if obviously imperfect) interest whatsoever in your language, culture and history, because anyone who doesn't know enough yet and doesn't subscribe immediately to your "truths" is immediately demeaned and attacked. Good job, dudes, you're making a great service to your country, indeed.

 

[Ygorcs]

Brother I always liked your posts and you are also right in this one, despite the misunderstanding you're having with the Albanian members. Everything you said in this post is 100% logical.

What you're not aware of (and the majority of members) is that Albanian is still nowadays not a "single language" and the differences between the so-called Albanian dialects are way bigger than those between Italian with Neapolitan and Sicilian languages, yet they're called languages while the Albanian versions are called dialects. For those knowledgeable on the Neapolitan, it has always amazed me how similar is to Albanian (especially Gheg) and I always thought as if Albanians came to South Italy, took the Italian language, "butchered" it in their own way and created Neapolitan.

The Moesian theory is not wrong at all as there was indeed a migration from there which affected many local variants to different degrees, either mostly replacing them, creating a hybrid version, of simply influencing them. But no way it spread the actually Albanian language to local Latin and Greek speakers as many areas maintained their characteristics up to these days. So you end up with regions far away with each other which share some very peculiar features despite the "Moesians" coming in the middle and dividing them for centuries.

Thanks for your words, Nik. Nice to see some reasonable and polite behavior in this topic.

But then do you think Moesian was also an Illyrian/Albanoid language related to Proto-Albanian, but its role was just influencing the local language that would eventually become the modern Albanian dialects? Since there are "Albanian-like" phonetic developments in cities in modern Serbia, Macedonia and of course Kosovo, I'd be tempted to say that Moesian and other local languages were closely related to Proto-Albanian and may have formed part of the "melting pot" and eventual linguistic homogeneization that led to the modern Albanian (and its dialects). I don't think it's necessary to claim, as an inevitable conclusion, that, if Moesian spread the Proto-Albanian language, it would've absorbed local Latin and Greek speakers in other areas. Many or perhaps even most of those speakers may have spoken already similar languages and dialects and just shifted to the dominant language (a bit like Castillian in much of Spain in the Modern Era and Koiné Greek in the Hellenic world in the Middle Ages). But, as you imply, I definitely don't think it's certain that Moesian was the Proto-Albanian core language. It's just a plausible hypothesis, which does not mean it's necessarily the better explanation for what happened.

By the way, I'm aware about the significant divergence between Tosk and Ghegh Albanian, but I find it a bit doubtful that their initial differentiation may date to as much as 2000 years ago, they probably started to split from a common and reasonably more uniform dialect quite a bit later. But, as you say, exposure to different foreign influences (including the influence of other now extinct Albanoid/Illyrian languages) could've hypothetically have contributed somewhat to the modern dialectal differentiation.

 

[LABERIA]

Does anyone in the (serious, without clear personal/national agendas) scientific community even deny the ethnic continuity of Albanians these days? AFAIK the only issue at stake is where exactly the speakers of the direct ancestor of Modern Albanian lived (and keep in mind language is not the same as DNA ancestry), if a bit to the south, a bit to the north, a bit to the east or the west, whatever, and what ancient ethnic/tribal group best represents them - but nonetheless they're always placed in the Balkans and always in or in the vicinity of the modern territory of the state named Albania, so the one and only consensus is that they are indeed Paleo-Balkanic people and have a direct continuity to some ancient population of the Iron Age Balkans.

I honestly do not get why people get so absurdly passionate (and even offensive) at the mere suggestion that perhaps Proto-Albanian was spoken first in modern North Albania and Kosovo. Aren't those Albanian-speaking areas even now? It's not like that hypothesis even means that all the ancestry of Albanians came from there (because people can shift and absorb another language without any major genetic replacement, as you know), but just that the origin of the modern language may have been a bit to the northeast of its present "core", and of course it's totally possible that that language was also Illyrian and that it was absorbed by the non-Romanized Illyrians elsewhere during the Late Antiquity and Middle Ages. To think that Proto-Albanian was spoken uniformly throughout the huge area from Epirus to Dalmatia sounds a bit naive to me. Modern Albanian certainly derives from one specific dialect/language in that dialect continuum, even if we consider that it be unquestionably Illyrian.

I explained to you personally:

After that Lazaridis & Co solved through the genetics the problem of the white pages of Greek history, demonstrating the continuity of the Greek nation, something that is not accepted by the theory that sees the chain of this continuity broken at least three times, they have decided to expand their interest outside national borders.

Tell me, what is that you don`t understand?

 

[blevins13]

Does anyone in the (serious, without clear personal/national agendas) scientific community even deny the ethnic continuity of Albanians these days? AFAIK the only issue at stake is where exactly the speakers of the direct ancestor of Modern Albanian lived (and keep in mind language is not the same as DNA ancestry), if a bit to the south, a bit to the north, a bit to the east or the west, whatever, and what ancient ethnic/tribal group best represents them - but nonetheless they're always placed in the Balkans and always in or in the vicinity of the modern territory of the state named Albania, so the one and only consensus is that they are indeed Paleo-Balkanic people and have a direct continuity to some ancient population of the Iron Age Balkans.

I honestly do not get why people get so absurdly passionate (and even offensive) at the mere suggestion that perhaps Proto-Albanian was spoken first in modern North Albania and Kosovo. Aren't those Albanian-speaking areas even now? It's not like that hypothesis even means that all the ancestry of Albanians came from there (because people can shift and absorb another language without any major genetic replacement, as you know), but just that the origin of the modern language may have been a bit to the northeast of its present "core", and of course it's totally possible that that language was also Illyrian and that it was absorbed by the non-Romanized Illyrians elsewhere during the Late Antiquity and Middle Ages. To think that Proto-Albanian was spoken uniformly throughout the huge area from Epirus to Dalmatia sounds a bit naive to me. Modern Albanian certainly derives from one specific dialect/language in that dialect continuum, even if we consider that it be unquestionably Illyrian.

The questions raised by you make sense, but so far no plausible dna, migration, language, political model has been presented, just the conviction of our unfriendly neighbors that Albanians come from some other part. Illyrian language was spoken in Illyria....Albanian language came later. There are 600 Albanian people tested for DNA in FTDNA, which haplogroup came from North in Albania and brought Albanian language ....name it or be silent till more light is shed in this topic.


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[Yetos]

@ Derite

I would like to give you something, outside of Albanian 'hypernationalistic' theories,

after the many 'explains' written in the Forum,

There is a name which Makedonians recogn as Illyrian King,

The name is Bardylis,
plz can you explain what it means.

 

[Yetos]

And another history lesson for why greeks manipulate and weaponise archeology:

Greece is legally still in a State of War with Albania. This gives their military and intellgence legal right to carry out all sorts of psychological warfare, propaganda, and other territorial operations that would otherwise be illegal.

????? what ???????

 

[markod]

What are you talking about. There is no such medieval Moesian migration ever document or theorised about. Albanian is not a "hybrid" or creole language. Its possible that some vocabulary was added from a small group of moesians, if we ever have any evidence of such a migration, but not that some "hybridization" happened, which is linguistically fantastical. There is no tradition or argument on which to base the theory that Albanian comes from medieval Moesians.


How are any of you guys deeming yourself fit to speak on the history of paleo balkan languages of the first century with such glaring contradictions and straight up ignorance on the only surviving paleo balkan language?

Most hypocritical thing is to use matzinger without even reading him. How come in his papers (they are either in Albanian or German) he says that no conclusive remarks can be made about Illyrian since we have no inscriptions
and some uncertain glosses only? How come in the Tabloids he is making bombastic closed case statements about Albanian being a "polar opposite".

This is a screenshot from his paper:

later in the page he re-iterates:

"– Es gibt keine illyrische Inschrift. Eine früher fälschlich für illyrisch gehaltene Inschriftaus Nordalbanien hat sich als christliche byzantinische Inschrift herausgestellt."

Google translate of this is:

- - There is no Illyrian inscription. An earlier mistaken for Illyrian inscription
from northern Albania has proved to be a Christian Byzantine inscription.



Honestly, of the tiny few illyrian names we have like "Bardhylis" we have (Also Messapic "Bardulos) the connections with the Albanian male name "Bardhi" are well established. This name is documented in
use since ages ago. Bardh means white in albanian as in, the white one.

Lazaridis supporting medieval entry of Albanians is honestly a big dissapointment and makes no sense whatsoever.

The paper relies mostly on Radoslav Katičić study of the toponymy, according to which only the South-East Dalmatian area would be considered properly Illyrian. I believe Orel cites him as well.

 

[Ygorcs]

I explained to you personally:

Tell me, what is that you don`t understand?

That's not an explanation. It's just a short statement. So it is a problem just because of Lazaridis & Co, there is nothing else to say? What on earth bothers Albanians so much if the core of the speech community of the specific Illyrian dialect that gave birth to Proto-Albanian was located in North Albanian, Kosovo and some adjacent areas of modern Serbia and FYROM more than 2000 years ago? That does not negate an ethnic continuity at all in the Balkans and even in Albania itself. Also, it's not like that would mean that the rest of Albania was Greek, Latin or whatever. It could well have been full of people speaking other Albanoid languages/dialects, just possibly not the specific dialect that gave birth to Modern Albanian dialects. Dialects and languages, especially closely related ones, are superimposing on each other and converging all the time within a dialect continuum (see what happened in Spain, in France, in Germany). Of course that's all a hypothesis, but it still baffles me that some people think that's a denial of Albanians' regional continuity and Paleo-Balkan nature. Modern borders of course do not represent accurately the past extent of languages and ethnicities, they may at best be an approximation.

 

[Yetos]

Greeks find continuity while Albanians are lost for words.....Dna has no say here....even for Lazaridis that now becomes linguistic considering that his beginnings he was an IT guy.....


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just wait,
you have already read what is going to come,
But you never took serious what I wrote,

The reason?

Albanian true scientists decades now are struggled by politicians,
politicians loved the para-science which created fantastic myths, overwhelming powers etc etc,

I said it many times, but never never took it as possibility,

Albanian major population fits as Balkanic population, and is major a Balkan population,
the only thing that does not fit in the today place in Linguistic form,

besides soon a genetics parameter that you read it many times,
but you choose to ignore it, will show more about true Albanian population.
A varriant that today you never guess, soon is about to be revealed,
Linguistic already show this varriant, soon will be announced in Gennetics,

Albanians are local Aimos peninsula people,
but from that to original PIE motherlanguage, or para-linguistic, or whatever historical artifficial possibilities, etc etc is 'far far ro' (pa-pa-ro)
Marin Mema is your 'prisoner', understand it.

you should let your true scientists to express them shelves,
and do real search, instead of such we see in TV or read somewhere and then

The 'party' that struggled true Albanian scientific searchers the times of isolation, must end.
Time to turn the page, and welcomed to global community.

most of your population lives abroad, some in EU some outside EU.
they know,

how much long some of you will run, you can not hide anymore,
Isolation era of Hodza is over,
and by blaiming Greeks for whatever happens in your country,
even for drag scandals, or hydropwer plants, or
is not an excuse.

Let the Albanians create a new state, let them fly,
most of them are nice people, waiting for a chance.

Stop the isolation era propaganda from the times of Hodza,
come into the modern more open world.

just decide it.

AND PLZ STOP BLAIMING THE GREEKS FOR WHATEVER HAPPENS IN ALBANIA,
IT IS NOT THE GREEKS BEHIND IF IT IS SNOWING IN TIRANA,
or the horse eat the drying grain



BTW,

Before few posts, it was mnetioned here, by an Albanian the Sevres treaty and the Laussane treaty,
you still blaim the Greeks Blevins,
But today we have violation of Laussane treaty by a third one, not Greek, not Albanian,
Have you any idea, that what you call today S Albania, tomorrow might not be yours, by peacefull way, cause someone else is violating Laussane treaty today? and we might go back to simmilar Sevres treaty?
Have you?

,

Good night Blevins.
When someone is pointing the moon, don't look the finger
finger is not the moon

you are not Western Ottoman empire anymore.
you are not in communistic era anymore,
time to break the stupid chains, that lock a rich country, that has working and progressive people, with stupidity and poverty,
just thing,
'Doctor's' relative has a good % of JP Morgan
the 'Short' has a yacht 36 meters long and at least 3 big buildings, in central squares in Greece
and the 'alcoolic' is about to wash 600 M to Turkey and Australia.

do not bother, yes we have same problems in Greece,
many of our 'chosen' might be even worse,

 

[Ygorcs]

The questions raised by you make sense, but so far no plausible dna, migration, language, political model has been presented, just the conviction of our unfriendly neighbors that Albanians come from some other part. Illyrian language was spoken in Illyria....Albanian language came later. There are 600 Albanian people tested for DNA in FTDNA, which haplogroup came from North in Albania and brought Albanian language ....name it or be silent till more light is shed in this topic.


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I think you're simplifying this a bit too much, or rather you seem to be projecting the modern genetic and ethnic distribution of the Balkans onto the very remote past, more than 2000 years ago, as if a "northern migration" meant a migration of modern northern populations. However, we already know from some ancient DNA samples (as far north as Hungary and North Italy) that "southern" genetic structures were present in a much wider and much more northerly area in the Late Antiquity. Besides, the hypothesis that I'm referring to here is not about a very northerly location, but actually a geographic core origin in present Kosovo, North Albania, Southern Serbia and Northern Macedonia (not discounting the probable presence of similar dialects and languages around it, including in the rest of present-day Albanian territory). It doesn't even take a "dramatic" migration for that. You also should never assume that the genetic (haplogroups, autosomal admixtures etc.) makeup of the people who lived in that region 2000 years ago was the same as it is now after Germanic, Turkic, Slavic (mainly) and other migrations. They may have simply been very Albanian-like genetically, an extension of the "Illyrian/Western Paleo-Balkan cluster", and that's particularly likely if, as is the case, we're talking about a region that literally borders on the present territory of Albanian. What you guys do not seem to even consider is the possibility that culturally, linguistically and genetically Proto-Albanian people may just have also (but not exclusively) lived outside the borders of present-day Albania, as if that somehow denied the ancient presence of Albanian people and language in the Western Balkans.

 

[LABERIA]

That's not an explanation. It's just a short statement. So it is a problem just because of Lazaridis & Co, there is nothing else to say? What on earth bothers Albanians so much if the core of the speech community of the specific Illyrian dialect that gave birth to Proto-Albanian was located in North Albanian, Kosovo and some adjacent areas of modern Serbia and FYROM more than 2000 years ago? That does not negate an ethnic continuity at all in the Balkans and even in Albania itself. Also, it's not like that would mean that the rest of Albania was Greek, Latin or whatever. It could well have been full of people speaking other Albanoid languages/dialects, just possibly not the specific dialect that gave birth to Modern Albanian dialects. Dialects and languages, especially closely related ones, are superimposing on each other and converging all the time within a dialect continuum (see what happened in Spain, in France, in Germany). Of course that's all a hypothesis, but it still baffles me that some people think that's a denial of Albanians' regional continuity and Paleo-Balkan nature. Modern borders of course do not represent accurately the past extent of languages and ethnicities, they may at best be an approximation.

The Albanians are a nation that has suffered genocide and ethnic cleansing by the hands of our neighbors, Greeks and Serbs, with the full support of their masters from the Treaty of Santo Stefano in the nineteenth century to the present day. Nobody has suffered as much as the Albanians. We have seen our lands being stolen by our neighbors, our people killed, driven out of their homes, assimilated, etc. Millions of people, Albanians have been subject to these for so long. At the end of the First World War, three countries, Italy, Greece and Serbia were close to the final solution, the definitive annihilation of the Albanian nation. Certainly, a criminal never accepts his crimes, on the contrary, he hires the best lawyers at the deffense of his crimes. To give a "scientific" support and to justify this horror in the midst of civilized Europe, it was invented a theory according to which the Albanians are not natives in the region but have come from Asia, the famous theory of Caucasian Albania.
Certainly that apart from our neighbors, especially the Serbs, no one takes this theory into account. However, the problem of giving a "scientific" support to the project of the extermination of the Albanian Nation remains, because here in the Balcans, like in the whole world, we are back at bad old days. And here enter into the scene these theories of this imaginary migration of the Albanians outside the territories where they live today.
Basically, this is what Lazapidhis did. He "proved" with his methods that the modern Greeks are practically the direct descendants of the ancient Greeks.
On the other hand, he is showing interrelated in these theories that see the origin of the Albanians outside the territories where they live today. And here we are in front of the Megali Idea, a chauvinist ideology invented by Imperial Russia. Because it was the Greek nationalism invented by the Great Powers (the Westerners, first of all Great Britain, stole the "toy" from the hands of the Russians) who invented the Greek nation.
These are not scholars, these are terrorists who prepare the ground for future genocides.
That's all. Other questions?

 

[Yetos]

The Albanians are a nation that has suffered genocide and ethnic cleansing by the hands of our neighbors, Greeks and Serbs, with the full support of their masters from the Treaty of Santo Stefano in the nineteenth century to the present day. Nobody has suffered as much as the Albanians. We have seen our lands being stolen by our neighbors, our people killed, driven out of their homes, assimilated, etc. Millions of people, Albanians have been subject to these for so long. At the end of the First World War, three countries, Italy, Greece and Serbia were close to the final solution, the definitive annihilation of the Albanian nation. Certainly, a criminal never accepts his crimes, on the contrary, he hires the best lawyers at the deffense of his crimes. To give a "scientific" support and to justify this horror in the midst of civilized Europe, it was invented a theory according to which the Albanians are not natives in the region but have come from Asia, the famous theory of Caucasian Albania.
Certainly that apart from our neighbors, especially the Serbs, no one takes this theory into account. However, the problem of giving a "scientific" support to the project of the extermination of the Albanian Nation remains, because here in the Balcans, like in the whole world, we are back at bad old days. And here enter into the scene these theories of this imaginary migration of the Albanians outside the territories where they live today.
Basically, this is what Lazapidhis did. He "proved" with his methods that the modern Greeks are practically the direct descendants of the ancient Greeks.
On the other hand, he is showing interrelated in these theories that see the origin of the Albanians outside the territories where they live today. And here we are in front of the Megali Idea, a chauvinist ideology invented by Imperial Russia. Because it was the Greek nationalism invented by the Great Powers (the Westerners, first of all Great Britain, stole the "toy" from the hands of the Russians) who invented the Greek nation.
These are not scholars, these are terrorists who prepare the ground for future genocides.
That's all. Other questions?

offcourse,

But History also says the opposite,

The biggest damage from 1700 till 1920's to the Greeks were made by Albanians

most of Aromani and Greeks, even in Peloponese were killed, or looted by Albanians.
remember the term Turk-Albanian,

at 1770-90's , Albanians Killed so many Greeks and Aromani and Sarakatsans, that even the Sultan took care to stop the genocides,
same at 1821

SO STOP CRYING,
THEY DID TO YOU WHAT YOU DID TO OTHERS,

It was not your case to reveange the Orlov's Greek revolt for the Ottomans
But you did.

So Stop Crying, oh poor Albanians,
when you wearing the 'skoutia' the others were dressed with 'tsoli'
So plz STOP it

except if you want to open again the history of what you did to Greeks Aromani Sarakatsans AND EVEN SOULIOTES & ARBANITES


BTW
why I have a feeling that you dream the Ottoman empire times?
are you an Albanian or a Turk-Albanian?

PS,
I am from a land that was guarded by 7 000 Albanian troops and 3 000 Turks at begining of 1900's
the dwellings of pyrgoi, sarakatsana, skoyterna, were burned to the ground.

So stop crying, and see the future.

 

[Johane Derite]

What on earth bothers Albanians so much if the core of the speech community of the specific Illyrian dialect that gave birth to Proto-Albanian was located in North Albanian, Kosovo and some adjacent areas of modern Serbia and FYROM more than 2000 years ago?

What bothers is that it doesn't hold as an argument. Spartan Albanian word loans, placenames in deep south albania that have followed the sound change laws since before the reign of phillip the second, etc. Things like this he has not debunked or even addressed. He builds his argument on flimsy historiographic musings, rather than linguistics.

This is from the matzinger paper:

In der (alban.) Fachliteratur wird oft die Meinung vertreten, daß die illyr. Anthroponomastik unverändert in der heutigen albanischen Anthroponomastik fortleben soll . Das ist unrichtig, die ‘illyr.’ Personennamen im Albanischen sind Produkt einer sekundären Wiederbelebung antiker Namen, die bes. auch zu Zeiten des Kommunismus gefördert wurde

English google translation:

"In the (Alban.) Literature is often held the opinion that the illyr. Anthroponomy should continue unchanged in today's Albanian anthroponomics. This is incorrect, the 'illyr.' Personal names in Albanian are the product of a secondary revival of ancient names, which was promoted especially in the days of communism"


This is just not true.

This guy lived 400 years ago. Are we to believe that communists time travelled and forced him to take an illyrian name?

There are just too many things that i am reading in this paper from 2016 via google translate that are making me sick.


An absolute mercenary and spectacle for show. He doesn't even say anything conclusive in the end. Nothing like what he says in the tabloids about "complete opposites".

Do the research Ygorcs

 

[LABERIA]

That's an easy one. It's all a matter of history. 1) There IS a Hellenic language family, consisting at least of Modern Greek and Tsakonian, and several "outlier" dialects like Pontic Greek and Cappadocian Greek could well be considered distinct languages (if even Galician and Portuguese can be regarded as different languages, then there is no reason, but political and ideological ones, that that those dialects couldn't be regarded as distinct languaes);

Dialects are not languages and we are not discusing here about a hypothetical greek family of languages in an alternative course of history. My question was: Why there is not a family of Greek languages, like Latin?

2) virtually all the dialects of Ancient Greek died off and were replaced by Koiné Greek, an Attic-based lingua franca that really spread and dominated over all the others only in the early Middle Ages with the Byzantine Greek language, so actual Modern Greek dialects do not descend directly from Ancient Greek, but from a language (Koiné-based Byzantine Greek) not any older than the Iberian group of Romance languages;

There are Greeks who have an different point of view from yours:

Multilingualism in Asia Minor

The common Alexandrian, that a simplified form of ancient Greek language at all levels (phonetics / pronunciation, grammar, syntax, vocabulary), was built by the scholars of Alexandria for the bureaucratic needs of non-Greek sages and scholars. Was then introduced lowercase letters and multitone to pronounce and emphasize each word correctly and facilitate to non-Greeks. Christians found ready this International language, 'English' of the time, and made ​​it their own. Note, that the common Alexandrian not spoken by mainly Greek but non Greek-speaking peoples (Jews, Syrians, Persians, etc.). Evolution of the language adopted and used in territory of Greece (that is by Slavs, Albanians, Vlachs etc.). The current Greek, Romeiko, to be precise, is a variation of the Alexandrian (the language of the Gospels, the Fathers of the Church, the hymnology) and not of the primarily Greek of ancient Greeks.

3) the territorial and populational extent of the Greek language was severely diminished during the Middle Ages (unlike that of Common Slavic for instance), so of course that prevented the further development of local Koiné Greek dialects into new but closely related languages;

How did this happened? Let me save you your time. Explain please how happened this process in Epir. How the white become blu. I've always been interested in knowing how all this happened but no one explains it to me, simply they repeat like parrots Epir is greek and here ends the discussion. Perhaps this is the right time.

4) Modern Greek is a modern creation based on one dialect, and most Greek speakers went to live in mainland Greece (especially in the 20th century), so of course all of it must've caused re-convergence of regional dialects back into a more homogeneous language, instead of a trend towards linguistic divergence.

You have to add in this your equation this:
Katharevousa

As for the maps you posted, honestly they mean nothing. Roman authorities were interested in political and administrative matters, not on ethnic affiliations and accurate national representation in their administrative districts, and of course they changed the political divisions of their empire, their borders and their names multiple times along the history of the empire. The region of the Prefecture of Illyricum had been divided in multiple different ways, with varying borders. There is probably a Roman Empire map for every tastes and sides in these "ethno-cultural wars" of the Balkans. ;-D

It`s not true. Romans were not ignorants. Listen, both maps, the map in the OP and the map of the Prefecture of Illyricum are prepared by anonymus. But there is a difference between these maps. The author drawing the map that you can see in the OP, was based on theories and other things. While the author of the map of the Prefecture of Illyricum was based on the historical fact.

 

[Yetos]

@ Derite

what does bardylis means
what explanation was written in forum,
what do you believe means

does it means 'bardhe yll'?
or something else?

 

[LABERIA]

offcourse,

But History also says the opposite,

The biggest damage from 1700 till 1920's to the Greeks were made by Albanians

most of Aromani and Greeks, even in Peloponese were killed, or looted by Albanians.
remember the term Turk-Albanian,

at 1770-90's , Albanians Killed so many Greeks and Aromani and Sarakatsans, that even the Sultan took care to stop the genocides,
same at 1821

SO STOP CRYING,
THEY DID TO YOU WHAT YOU DID TO OTHERS,

It was not your case to reveange the Orlov's Greek revolt for the Ottomans
But you did.

So Stop Crying, oh poor Albanians,
when you wearing the 'skoutia' the others were dressed with 'tsoli'
So plz STOP it

except if you want to open again the history of what you did to Greeks Aromani Sarakatsans AND EVEN SOULIOTES & ARBANITES


BTW
why I have a feeling that you dream the Ottoman empire times?
are you an Albanian or a Turk-Albanian?

PS,
I am from a land that was guarded by 7 000 Albanian troops and 3 000 Turks at begining of 1900's
the dwellings of pyrgoi, sarakatsana, skoyterna, were burned to the ground.

So stop crying, and see the future.

Take it, sharpen your teeth:
Fearful History

 

[Yetos]

Take it, sharpen your teeth:
Fearful History

No I am not sharpening my teeth,

First I say to you 'live, and let live'

then I am 'oiling' my gun.

Do the same.
from patriotism to Nazi Arian theory,
the distance is huge, yet one step away
from free Greece or free Albania,
to Albania or Greece uberalles the distance is very big, yet so short,
from pure Greeks or pure Albanians, to Albanian or Greeks are dirty or'gypsies', many times said, the distance is long, yet 2 words and 3 moves of the lips.

And by that maybe I must ask forgiveness from roma people,
they have nothing to do, with our ambitions,
rather it is us, who follow para-stupidity, claiming as truth,,