Phenotypes of the Greeks

Yes, many such cases.

Veroia was the capital of the Christian Kip-chaks/Cumans for a period, with some families surviving all the way up to the 20th century and today. Christian Tatars from Crimea also settled around Adrianopolis and Constantinople in various stages of the empire.

I commend you for being interested in the history of your region but I suggest to start reading from the real historical sources and not relying on wikipedia.

If I may say so, I think you should start from the beginning:

https://www.amazon.com/Alexiad-Penguin-Classics-Anna-Komnene/dp/0140455272
 
Bekas said:
Yes, many such cases.

Veroia was the capital of the Christian Kip-chaks/Cumans for a period, with some families surviving all the way up to the 20th century and today. Christian Tatars from Crimea also settled around Adrianopolis and Constantinople in various stages of the empire.

I commend you for being interested in the history of your region but I suggest to start reading from the real historical sources and not relying on wikipedia.

If I may say so, I think you should start from the beginning:

https://www.amazon.com/Alexiad-Penguin-Classics-Anna-Komnene/dp/0140455272
Click to expand...

I read that book in High School. I will read it again.
 
Jovialis said:
Eastern Mediterranean is basically another word for Aegean Islander-to-Western Anatolia coast, or just simply the Aegean. It is more specific and accurate to call it as such, since people in other parts of the Eastern Mediterranean are radically different from them. Egyptians and other Levantines are different from the Aegean Islands, because they have a large amount of Iberomaurusian, as well as relatively large SSA component. In fact, I recall modern Near easterners must be modeled with Sidon_BA, and are not appropriately modeled with Ancient Near Easterners, since they have been transformed. The genetic profile of Aegean Islanders is similar to Anatolia_BA.


Crete, Rhodes, Kos, and Icaria are so-called C5 Eastern Mediterranean (Aegean, if you will), rather than a place just receiving the input.


This ancestry has had far reaching impact, beyond Italy and Greece, and basically touched much of the rest of Europe. The Italian samples shown below are not C5-Eastern Mediterranean (AEGEANS!) but did receive geneflow.


My money is on the Greek Colonies, for when this ancestry first arrived in South Italy.

Distance to:C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R34_Mausole_di_Augusto
3.63035811Greek_Rhodes

Distance to:C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R32_Mausole_di_Augusto
6.19655549Italian_Sicily

Distance to:C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R30_Mausole_di_Augusto
3.96643417Italian_Calabria

Distance to:C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R122_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
2.95387881Italian_Campania

Distance to:C5_Iron_Age_Eastern_Mediterranean:R850_(Latini)_Ardea
2.94292372Greek_Kos

Distance to:C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R81_Viale_Rossini_Necropolis
4.50543006Greek_Rhodes

Distance to:C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R78_Viale_Rossini_Necropolis
6.19707996Greek_Cappadocia

Distance to:C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R72_ANAS
4.14963854Greek_Cypriot

Distance to:C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R71_ANAS
9.65810023Greek_Cappadocia

Distance to:C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R69_ANAS
5.18924850Greek_Icaria

Distance to:C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R66_ANAS
4.68466648Greek_Rhodes

Distance to:C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R50_Centocelle_Necropolis
4.67814066Italian_Calabria

Distance to:C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R45_Isola_Sacra_Necropolis
3.53954799Morocco_Jew

Distance to:C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R44_Isola_Sacra_Necropolis
9.11243656Greek_Icaria

Distance to:C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R43_Isola_Sacra_Necropolis
8.76342399Greek_Cypriot

Distance to:C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R40_Isola_Sacra_Necropolis
5.81309728Greek_Rhodes

Distance to:C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R39_Isola_Sacra_Necropolis
3.41058646Greek_Rhodes

Distance to:C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R1548_Monterotondo
2.43474845Greek_Kos

Distance to:C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R1545_Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese
3.10964628Greek_Rhodes

Distance to:C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R1543_Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese
4.47641598Greek_Kos

Distance to:C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R134_Marcellino_&_Pietro
3.67247873Greek_Rhodes

Distance to:C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R133_Marcellino_&_Pietro
3.73029489Greek_Rhodes

Distance to:C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R130_Marcellino_&_Pietro
4.76692773Greek_Cypriot

Distance to:C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R128_Casale_del_Dolce
4.15545425Greek_Cappadocia

Distance to:C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R123_Casale_del_Dolce
3.29807520Greek_Rhodes

Distance to:C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R115_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
2.99045147Greek_Kos

Distance to:C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R114_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
2.23273375Greek_Crete
Click to expand...

fzyXPiK.png
 
Angela said:
Atlanto-Meds are probably rare as hen's teeth in mainland Greece. Let's not exaggerate.

The people of Mani are closer to the ancient Greeks, if that's what you mean.

I'm warning you; you start with theapricity type b.s. here and there will be consequences.
Click to expand...

I'm an Atlanto Med of full Peloponnesian ancestry. Atlanto Meds in mainland Greece are not an anomaly. Apricity is a joke but why are you lowering yourself to their standards by even bringing that s****t up?
 
OK since all of you are so good at this, categorize the two Greek guys that have full silhouettes:

img_1000173.jpg

I will reveal their place of origin after a little while
 
Last edited:
matadworf said:
I'm an Atlanto Med of full Peloponnesian ancestry. Atlanto Meds in mainland Greece are not an anomaly. Apricity is a joke but why are you lowering yourself to their standards by even bringing that s****t up?
Click to expand...

I'm Atlanto too LOL (classified by the old anthro-forum "greats" like Dienekes and others) and fully Peloponnesian as well. Not sure where people get their info, but this is the base of the mainland and Cretan population since the Bronze Age. It's stated in many books.

I mean, what else could be the reason the average Greek male is 5'10"? There's nothing else in the population that could have made them that tall.

PS: Most of the Balkans has an Atlanto component.
 
bigsnake49 said:
OK since all of you are so good at this, categorize the two Greek eyes that have full silhouettes:

View attachment 13081

I will reveal their place of origin after a little while
Click to expand...

Couldn't tell you since I don't hang out with Greeks and have never visited too far outside my parents' village. The guy on the left gives me an Epirotic vibe though. Guy on the right looks like one of the Atlanto-Meds we've been talking about.

I wouldn't be surprised if they were Arvanites.
 
No Arvanites. The guy in the middle was/is my best man at my wedding (κουμπαρος). But he is not from Thrace, Eastern, western or Northern. The guy on the left with the partial profile is from Serres.
 
Here are some people from Eastern Roumelia:

 
matadworf said:
I'm an Atlanto Med of full Peloponnesian ancestry. Atlanto Meds in mainland Greece are not an anomaly. Apricity is a joke but why are you lowering yourself to their standards by even bringing that s****t up?
Click to expand...

I'll post family members for reference; my mother, aunt, cousin, myself, my dad
Screenshot 2022-02-05 9.16.10 PM.jpg
Screenshot 2022-02-05 8.47.21 PM.pngpic tc.jpgScreenshot 2022-02-05 8.19.21 PM.jpgScreenshot 2022-02-05 8.19.21 PM.jpgScreenshot 2022-02-05 8.53.57 PM.jpg
 
Well, first of all, you're not ugly at all. :) Nor does white hair make you old. I started going white at 35 but being a woman, I've been coloring it ever since. Men should do it more often. It takes years off the face.

Second of all, you look a lot like your sister.

Third of all, if you had told me this was a family of Southern Italians, I would have accepted it instantly. Your father, if we're talking about the first picture, looks just like my husband's Uncle Jack; same blondish coloring.

However, I'm sorry, but you don't look very Atlanto-Med to me.

Maybe I should have prefaced that by saying that I don't like that terminology at all, for what it's worth. I know Coon used it and if my memory serves, claimed to have found it in parts of Greece, but I just always thought he was wrong.

If people are going to use it, Atlanto should mean something, and what I think it means is the skeletons buried in the Megalithic tombs. Therefore, I think only very few parts of Spain have them, for example, and Iberians are basically gracile Meds.

Basically, I think Europeans, if you're going to divide them into "races", which is downright silly imo anyway, could probably quite adequately be divided into Mediterranean, Alpine, and Nordic, although the latter is just depigmented Mediterranean as far as I'm concerned. The other influence is, I think, WHG/EHG/CHG like, bringing wider planed faces, bigger, thicker bones in both the face and the body etc.

What I see in you is someone who is more Alpine than anything else, perhaps altered by a bit of Slavic ancestry. Perhaps as a very young man you gave a different impression, but that's what I see now.

I know you disagree, but you did ask. :)

Anyway, after reading all of the "physical anthropologists", and seeing how they disagreed with each other and were even inconsistent in their own categorizations, I threw the whole think out and haven't looked back. You can "see" the variation in ethnicity and even describe it without using those terms.
 
Angela said:
Well, first of all, you're not ugly at all. :) Nor does white hair make you old. I started going white at 35 but being a woman, I've been coloring it ever since. Men should do it more often. It takes years off the face.

Second of all, you look a lot like your sister.

Third of all, if you had told me this was a family of Southern Italians, I would have accepted it instantly. Your father, if we're talking about the first picture, looks just like my husband's Uncle Jack; same blondish coloring.

However, I'm sorry, but you don't look very Atlanto-Med to me.

Maybe I should have prefaced that by saying that I don't like that terminology at all, for what it's worth. I know Coon used it and if my memory serves, claimed to have found it in parts of Greece, but I just always thought he was wrong.

If people are going to use it, Atlanto should mean something, and what I think it means is the skeletons buried in the Megalithic tombs. Therefore, I think only very few parts of Spain have them, for example, and Iberians are basically gracile Meds.

Basically, I think Europeans, if you're going to divide them into "races", which is downright silly imo anyway, could probably quite adequately be divided into Mediterranean, Alpine, and Nordic, although the latter is just depigmented Mediterranean as far as I'm concerned. The other influence is, I think, WHG/EHG/CHG like, bringing wider planed faces, bigger, thicker bones in both the face and the body etc.

What I see in you is someone who is more Alpine than anything else, perhaps altered by a bit of Slavic ancestry. Perhaps as a very young man you gave a different impression, but that's what I see now.

I know you disagree, but you did ask. :)

Anyway, after reading all of the "physical anthropologists", and seeing how they disagreed with each other and were even inconsistent in their own categorizations, I threw the whole think out and haven't looked back. You can "see" the variation in ethnicity and even describe it without using those terms.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your response I really appreciate your insights!
 
It's been years since I've read about physical anthropology, but I still believe it to have high merit (in the right hands). It's a tool that has its purpose, like any other tool.

Different anthropologists were looking at the same stuff; each was just using different groupings and terminology. The problem is compounded by people on forums mixing and matching stuff to suit their "tastes."

Today's population genetics is no different: sets that overlap; different names for essentially the same thing; etc. And the same old forum problem has reared an even uglier head this time around with all these amateur calculators. When ego and emotions get involved, things can get dicey. At the end of the day, it's the same thing hidden behind strings of letters and numbers that provide a "proper" sanitized veneer--only this time it's more easily abused.

That said, I think I'll read Coon again at some point. The DNA research over the years seems to be marching ever more in step with his tune. If I recall, he even teased out "Ghost"-like populations ("Sapiens" and "Ladogan") from his data that eerily seem to correspond to Basal Eurasian and ANE, respectively.
 
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