Pigmentation of European Hunter Gatherers


Do you have a memory problem? That's not going to be very helpful.

Please look upthread where I said the following:

" Italian immigrants did the same in Switzerland. People do what they must to survive. So long as the work is honest there's no disgrace in it. That's another lesson courtesy of my father."

The difference between us is that I don't see anything demeaning in it. Nor do I try to forget it or hide it. It also informs my world view and means that I have compassion for other people who are forced to migrate and do this kind of work. You don't.

 
I also don't see anything demeaning in any kind of work.

The problem is that some immigrant groups don't come to work, but only to collect welfare / benefits:

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archiv...nals-less-likely-than-dutch-to-claim-welfare/

Polish nationals [in the Netherlands] are less likely to claim welfare benefits than the native Dutch, according to new figures from the national statistics office CBS which were released on Thursday.

However, other groups of immigrants and refugees are much more likely to be on benefits, the figures show.

For example, the CBS says seven out of 10 Somali nationals and six out of 10 Syrians live on welfare (bijstand), compared with just 3% of the Dutch. Afghans, Eritreans and Iranians are also much more likely to be living on welfare.


Read more at DutchNews.nl: Polish nationals less likely than Dutch to claim welfare

https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/nieuws/2015/31/zeven-van-de-tien-somaliers-in-de-bijstand

Welfare_NL.png


So are you still going to claim that there is no correlation between Whiteness of immigrants and their work ethic?

Can facts be racist, can statistical data be racist ???

What about crime rates of different groups of immigrants? I also read "The Color of Crime" about crime in the U.S.

means that I have compassion for other people who are forced to migrate and do this kind of work

I do not have compassion for welfare-collecting Somalis, Iraqis, Syrians, Romani, etc.

Collecting welfare / benefits is not any kind of work - and these Romani look healthy enough to be able to work:

 
I also don't see anything demeaning in any kind of work.

The problem is that some immigrant groups don't come to work, but only to collect welfare / benefits:

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archiv...nals-less-likely-than-dutch-to-claim-welfare/



https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/nieuws/2015/31/zeven-van-de-tien-somaliers-in-de-bijstand

Welfare_NL.png


So are you still going to claim that there is no correlation between Whiteness of immigrants and their work ethic?

Can facts be racist, can statistical data be racist ???

What about crime rates of different groups of immigrants? I also read "The Color of Crime" about crime in the U.S.



I do not have compassion for welfare-collecting Somalis, Iraqis, Syrians, Romani, etc.

Collecting welfare / benefits is not any kind of work - and these Romani look healthy enough to be able to work:



All the Poles in Finland also work, some have been taking part in the demonstrations against the present "refugees".
They have marched with Polish flags in the events, most are clearly going to return and those that dont will integrate fast.
 
All the Poles in Finland also work, some have been taking part in the demonstrations against the present "refugees".
They have marched with Polish flags in the events, most are clearly going to return and those that dont will integrate fast.
Is it like in GB. Somalis are not liked because they don't work and Poles are not liked because they work and take jobs away from locals?
Are they any studies showing that Somalis are lazy or they can't find jobs due to racism?
 
Is it like in GB. Somalis are not liked because they don't work and Poles are not liked because they work and take jobs away from locals?
Are they any studies showing that Somalis are lazy or they can't find jobs due to racism?

Somali regard themselves a master race, they are hated even in Africa, they only consider some professions worthy of them.
They often have small shops in African countries, in Europe it seems other immigrant groups are much better at it, most likely as you have to actually run them according to the law, at least to a degree.

Many Somalis in school declare they want to proceed to medical school but their grades are not good enough.
They yell racism as a reason and refuse the offers to go in to nursing as that is below them.
Then they go to study in private schools in Bulgaria or Romania, pay for the degree there and move inside EU to somewhere where welfare based system pays their salary.

I would never go to an Somali doctor or hire a Somali lawyer, the professions only function to prove their value to others and make money, they generally have no real interest in the careers they pursue.

Example.


Meet - Mohamed Karur Somali Lawyer at Syeds Law Care Solicitors
Specializing in Immigration and Family Law - Birmingham UK
 
The Yamnayans weren't particularly light. Also Kura-Araxes R1b1-M415(xM269) was.. (if we trust Genetiker) black. While on the other hand, an L1a sample from Armenia 6161 ± 89 YBP was light-eyed and light-haired.

The Yamnayans from the results we have would have most likely resembled modern Anatolians, Iranians, Mesopotamians and Levantines based on pigmentation, they were little "darker" on average than the average of modern South Europeans and more on level as the region I mentioned above.

The Kura Araxes R1b1 dude was not "Black" he was dark relative to European standards while the L1a sample indeed was blond and light eyed, the irony that moment when the more northern guys were darker as their southern counterparts in form of Kura Araxes. This is why I am telling you at least half (if not more) of the Yamnayan ancestry came from further south. Either from the Iranian Plateau OR South_Central Asia.
 
Last edited:
You speak as if you are from some "pure" ethnic group. Like everyone else in Europe your genes and those of your ethnic group are the result of the admixture of three vastly different ancestral populations. In your particular case, your people also have ancestry from Siberians.

I'm sure the WHG might have said similar things when the Neolithic farmers from Anatolia showed up, and MN Central Europeans might have felt much the same when the barbarians from the steppes showed up, and continue it with "eastern" admixture. That's the way it goes. Everybody wants to shut the door once their own group has arrived.

Does that mean that I'm in favor of unregulated immigration into Europe from parts of the world that don't share its values and culture, and which immigration will overwhelm the economic structure and the system of social benefits? No, it doesn't. I just object to the false and delusional genetic and historical narratives, and to the dishonesty and lack of scientific objectivity which is endemic to much of the discussion.
The ironic part on all of this is how some people still have this image of wild warlord like Indo Europeans taking over all of Europe While in fact and reality the way how they spred was pretty much in the same fashion as how third world immigrants do today. Overpopulating and "exploiting" the civilization of the local groups.

I as an Indo European speaker just HAVE to admit that when the Iranics arrived in Western Asia, came pretty much as nomadic herders/farmers in search of new land with absolutely no knowledge of civilization or anything akine. The Persian pretty much adopted to Elamite culture while the Medes learned from the Mannaeans.

Greek sources describe how the Mycenaens basically came like wild "dirty" nomads and took over through overpopulation.

At least those Indo Europeans who spred via the Steppes were not really advanced in any way but more like third world immigrants. There are even archeological sides in Germany which harbor mass graves of people from the Corded Ware culture after encountering local farmers. Looks like some Farming groups were not really "friendly" at first and hunted on them.

When there is one thing I have learned from genetics and history, it is that the humans back than didn't behave much different to the "foreign" as they do nowadays.
 
Last edited:
The ironic part on all of this is how some people still have this image of wild warlord like Indo Europeans taking over all of Europe While in fact and reality the way how they spred was pretty much in the same fashion as how third world immigrants do today. Overpopulating and "exploiting" the civilization of the local groups.

I as an Indo European speaker just HAVE to admit that when the Iranics arrived in Western Asia, came pretty much as nomadic herders/farmers in search of new land with absolutely no knowledge of civilization or anything akine. The Persian pretty much adopted to Elamite culture while the Medes learned from the Mannaeans.

Greek sources describe how the Mycenaens basically came like wild "dirty" nomads and took over through overpopulation.

At least those Indo Europeans who spred via the Steppes were not really advanced in any way but more like third world immigrants. There are even archeological sides in Germany which harbor mass graves of people from the Corded Ware culture after encountering local farmers. Looks like some Farming groups were not really "friendly" at first and hunted on them.

When there is one thing I have learned from genetics and history, it is that the humans back than didn't bvehave much different to the "foreign" as they do nowadays.


Steppe invasions are a historical fact, almost a pattern, there is not one recorded case the groups acted as you claim.
They rode in and took the land and the people with it as their possessions, that is the way of the steppe and is common to Huns, Hungarians, Mongols and anyone that came before them.
 
Steppe invasions are a historical fact, almost a pattern, there is not one recorded case the groups acted as you claim.
They rode in and took the land and the people with it as their possessions, that is the way of the steppe and is common to Huns, Hungarians, Mongols and anyone that came before them.

You sure? I advise you to open some history books and read trough them and at best take some recent studies by too.

Indo Europeans pretty much came like thrid world immigrants bringing with them diseases that didn't existed before and killed of a large part of the local population, confirmed facts by recent studies. When the Iranics came to the Iranian plateau they were local nomadic tribes that had to build a confederation with the Mannaeans to build the Median empire to fight off the REAL barbaric Assyrians. Mycenaeans are described as dirty nomads who had not much knowledge of civilization and took over with use of their population size. What kind of new invention did Indo Europeans brought to Europe or West Asia that didn't existed already? Farming/Herding? Pottery? Warfare? War wagons/Charriots?(one of the most used arguments but in fact newer archeological findings, post Anthony's book, have revealed Wagons and Horses most likely already existed by Late Neolithic throughout the world).

What made the Indo Europeans take the upper hand is exactly how todays immigration works. A continuous immigration of people from poor lands overpopulating the local farming groups. And as usual as it is with patrichal "third world immigrants" the immigration of the patriachal Indo Europeans was male heavier. In Patrichal societies the males are more mobile while the females often stay at home. Pretty typical of how many modern Afghan immigrants are, at least here in Germany.

In like 200 years when the European society stops making enough children, and the Afghan and Morrocan etc refugee from your neighborhood have taken the upper hand by reproducing more with even local females, because as written above most of third world immigration is male based, how do you think it will appear to the future humans, if we left no informations behind? Will they think "well the European locals just stopped making enough children and the immigrants simply overpopulated by having more". Or will they say, "well the immigrants were so advanced and a male driven conquest that they overrun the local European cultures and took their females as prey".

Would you agree with the second scenario? Are the thrid world immigrants in anyway more advanced to you, beside maybe still having the will to reproduce.

Think about it a second. It isn't always the way as it appears at first look. Many things actually point to the fact that the Indo Europeans were no different to male third world immigrants.

1. They had absolutely no or not enough technical advantage, they were simply nomads with no knowledge of large warfare nor knowledge of civilization.
2. There is confirmation that they brought diseases with them(pretty much how Balkan Roma immigrants brought Variola back to Germany the last years).
3. They were mostly male driven but yet there is no sign of Indo Europeans "conquering" the locals in any part of this world. Everywhere it looks much more like they integrated and merged into the local cultures. Look at Bellbeaker who look simply like Neolithic farmers + Bronze Age Indo Europeans. The same with Corded Ware, the same with Iranic tribes. Absolutely nowhere, where they go did they stay pure but mixed into the local cultures instantly and adopted to them. While we see from the advanced Neolithic farmers when they went to Europe, they stayed isolated and created their own cultures for pretty much thousands of years, rarely mixing with the local Hunters and Gatherers.

About the Huns, Mongols and Hungarians. What did the Hungarians "conquer" beside this little portion of Europe I may ask? The Huns used the momentum well, created by the wars between the Romans- Parthians and Romans-Sassanids. Yet even though the Sassanids had to pretty much fight on three fronts, they freakn beat the Huns in a destroying battle, which actually forced them to move deeper into the European Steppes. If it wasn't for the wars with the Romans the Parthians and Sassanids had pretty much Central Asia and the Huns under control. Later when the Sassanid empire crumbled it was easy for Mongols to conquer, yet they never stayed for too long at any place. But those Iron Age stories have nothing to do with the Indo European expansion during the Bronze Age.
 
Last edited:
Now before some individuals take me wrong. I am not trying to justify mass immigration to Europe. I am also against mass migration of not integratable people whoms world view is completely the opposite of democratic values. Every country and it's people have the right to survive. I also know it is in the humans nature to try to preserve their clture and "genes". I was merely pointing out the obvious facts that this has been always the case the "natives" being not so friendly towards mass migration and mass migration being often a factor in human history. Also that the main reason for the decline of European heritage is not mass migration at first place BUT the fact that most European countries have lost the "lust" for reproducing. Children are often not viewed as a gift but more stress and this is a problem.

At the end even if mass migration didn't happen, if it keeps going this way and the population size of native Europeans shrinks we will have empty regions here and at the end of the day people from other parts of the world will repopulated it anyways.
 
Now before some individuals take me wrong. I am not trying to justify mass immigration to Europe. I am also against mass migration of not integratable people whoms world view is completely the opposite of democratic values. Every country and it's people have the right to survive. I also know it is in the humans nature to try to preserve their clture and "genes". I was merely pointing out the obvious facts that this has been always the case the "natives" being not so friendly towards mass migration and mass migration being often a factor in human history. Also that the main reason for the decline of European heritage is not mass migration at first place BUT the fact that most European countries have lost the "lust" for reproducing. Children are often not viewed as a gift but more stress and this is a problem.

At the end even if mass migration didn't happen, if it keeps going this way and the population size of native Europeans shrinks we will have empty regions here and at the end of the day people from other parts of the world will repopulated it anyways.
You are wrong.


PIE folks were actually high advanced people. The most advanced and evolved race of their time. PIE from the Iranian Plateau (Leyla Tepe??) brought into and found highly advanced ancient civilizations in Greece, Egypt, Mesopotamia and Indus Valley. They migrated into the Maykop/Yamnaya Horizon and later on they invaded Europe.
 
Finally everything is clear, only Western Europeans were brown during the Mesolithic:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2017/09/19/135616.DC4/135616-1.pdf

"Western hunter-gatherers (WHG) had a distinctive blue-eyed, dark skin pigmentation
phenotype1,2 that emerged in the Mesolithic.6 In contrast, we show that Mesolithic and
Neolithic individuals from Ukraine, Latvia and the Iron Gates had, like Scandinavian and
Eastern hunter-gatherers, intermediate to high frequencies of the derived skin pigmentation
allele at SLC24A5. Unlike Scandinavian and Eastern hunter-gatherers, however, they have
low frequency of the derived SLC45A2 allele. The derived OCA2/HERC2 allele associated
with light (particularly blue) eye color is common in WHG, SHG, and hunter-gatherers from
Latvia, but at low frequency in hunter-gatherers from Ukraine and the Iron Gates. This allele
appears to be differentiated in a North-South gradient, as it is today – suggesting the
possibility of long-term balancing selection due to geographic variation in selective pressure.
The WHG phenotype of light eye and dark skin pigmentation1 thus appears to be restricted to
western Europe and is far from universal in European hunter-gatherers, with light skin
pigmentation common in Northern and Eastern Europe before the appearance of agriculture."
 

This thread has been viewed 30954 times.

Back
Top