Poland, more Germanic or Slavic?

[Sile]

European Sarmatia (based on Ptolemy, very large maps):

First: http://postimg.org/image/b6f4jb66n/full/

Second: http://postimg.org/image/lrpq4z9oz/full/

Germania Magna (based on Ptolemy, very large maps):

http://postimg.org/image/u743f29g5/full/

http://postimg.org/image/tqm7vcyp5/full/



https://www.raremaps.com/index.html

ptolemy maps, show venedae and the venedae montes outside of wendish lands

the german maps of wendish lands shows no venedae

so whats the issue?

 

[Sile]

wendish lands was originally ocuppied by th evandal confederation

Geography - Where did the Wends originate from?

From about 500CE and during the early Middle Ages, the Wends occupied most of the land in north-central Europe east of the River Elbe and the tribes tended to settle along river valleys. The Sorbs settled between the Rivers Saale and Mulde in the south-west, while the Polabian and Obodrite Wends occupied land in the north-west extending to present Denmark. In fact, King Waldemar IV of Denmark who died in 1375 assumed the official title of "King of the Wends" and this title was used by Danish monarchs until 1972. The Vilzi or Veletians moved northwards to Pomerania, along the Baltic Sea west of the River Oder. The Ploni moved to the central area between the Rivers Elbe and Spree while the Luzici and the Milceni tribes settled along the River Spree in Lusatia, with the Luzici giving their name to Lusatia.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Blaeu_1645_-_Germaniae_veteris_typus.jpg

check map,.............. goths, venedi, aestii OUTSIDE of wendish lands


As the identification of Vandal or Wendish settlers with various parts of England is new, or almost so, it will be desirable to state the evidence of their connection with the origin of the Anglo-Saxon race more fully than would otherwise have been necessary.

The Vandals are commonly thought to have been a nation of Teutonic descent like the Goths, but there is certain evidence that the later Vandals or Wends were Slavonic, and there is no reason to doubt that these later vandals were descended from some of the earlier. Tacitus mentions the Vandals as a group of German nations, the name being used in a wide sense, as British is at the present time. The most important reason for considering the early Vandals to be Teutonic is that the names of their leaders are almost exclusively Teutonic, as Gonderic, Genseric, etc.(3) This reason would be valid if there were nothing else to set against it. Leaders of a more advanced race, however, have led the forces of less advanced allies in all ages, and the Goths were a more advanced race than the Vandals, whom they conquered, and who subsequently became their firm allies. Among the collection of Anglo-Saxon relics in the British Museum are a number of Vandal ornaments from North Africa, placed there for comparison with those of the Anglo-Saxon period. These are apparently rough imitations of those of the same age found in Scandinavia and in England - i.e., imitations of Gothic work.
Of all the people in ancient Germania east of the Elbe whom Tacitus mentions as Germans, not a single Teutonic vestige remained in the time of Charlemagne.

 

[arvistro]

I'm saying that L1025 probably developed from DNA which had been previously absorbed by Balto-Slavs from the Ananin Culture people.

I know that L1025 is younger than the Ananin Culture, but I mean that ancestor of L1025 was the DNA of the Ananin Culture.

If Balto-Slavs absorbed all surviving people of that culture then this explains why today this branch of N isn't common among Ugro-Finns.

I think you are right I am sorry but I can't stop myself from writing how this happened:
Balto-Slavs absorbed very early VL29 in their ranks in Ananin culture. When Balto-Slavic VL29 thousand years later created a son L550, then great Balto-Slavic shaman made dna tests and told his brothers and uncles and other N1C1 folk without L550 mutation to get off to Finns or die. "Move to Finns!" he yelled, "we already have the son of our lineage". And all the intermarried folk went away. Great Shaman did not mind that different old R1A lines stayed, but he was obsessed with purity of Balto-Slavic N1C1.
When in L550 family thousand of years later L1025 was born. The new shaman made dna tests and told his brothers and uncles and other N1C1 folk without L1025 mutation to get off to Finns. "Move to Finns!" he yelled, "we already have the son of our lineage". Other L550s got sad and went to live around Roslagen and North Sweden. Notice R1A folk that for couple of thousand years was their kinsmen, did not share similar destiny, they were neither cleaned from Balto-Slavs, nor sent to Finns. Absorbed N1C1 folk lived his own life in Balto-Slavs. One which included some dna testing to tell who stays and who leaves. Besides the ones leaving were always the older clades and brothers not new mutations which is the standard non-Balto-Slavic way.
When in L1025 family some good years later N2783 was born. The third great shaman shouted: "Finally our destiny has arrived". For the last time he made dna tests and told his brothers and uncles and other N1C1 without N2783 to get off to Finns. Other L1025 got sad and went to live around Uppsala. Again they did not take R1As with them, Shaman as I told was obsessed only with N1C1 purity, he could not care less of R1A.
N2783 was a good father. None of his children was told to go to Finns... He said this - "look guys never mind the ancient Balto-Slavic brotherhood, you are to stay in borders of viking age Baltic speaking tribes. If you really want to go around you will have time. Jagellons will take to rule Poland, so 1 or 2 of you will manage to Hungary, to Kiev and other parts of the territory. Besides Baltic speaking tribal territory will be divided by 4 countries - Latvia, Poland, Lithuania, Russia + for some time Germany. If you really want to go to Finns, ok, there will be Livonian times and Latvians will intermingle with Estonians. Just wait a bit! And for now - mind the borders!"

Then there is other version which sound more complicated, might be wronger from ethnogenesis point of view and obviously lacks ancient dna testing by themselves:
Out of VL29 line L550 was born and with his clan went to modern Sweden territory. They created line L1025 clan who went deeper in Sweden, this line created N2783 clan. N2783 clan went to Baltics before/around viking time.

Go figure.

 

[Taranis]

What do you think about the theory that there had existed a common Balto-Slavo-Germanic language?

This theory says that Germanic split first from Balto-Slavic, and later Balto-Slavic split into Slavic and Baltic.

I'm sorry that I only got to reply now. I'd say I'm indecisive there, because the evidence is indecisive (though leaning somewhat in favour):

- the treatment of the syllabic resonants from PIE is similar, but divergent from the other IE branches.

- Proto-Germanic and Proto-Balto-Slavic shares the shift of *o > *a. This may be a coincidence, however because in Germanic that change was relatively late (Celtic LWs are affected by it). Proto-Slavic does exactly the reverse sound change later (*a > *o), but this is even later (circa Migration Period), as Latin LWs and place names (in Slavic areas that were Latin-speaking before the Migration period, ie on the Balkans) are affected by it.

- there's a couple of striking lexical commonalities, distinct from the other IE branches, e.g. the words for "gold" and "silver": while the former has reflexes in other IE branches (not as "gold", though), the word for "silver" is distinct from PIE root for "silver" (*H[SUB]2[/SUB]erg-).

but... on the other hand, as a counter-argument, you have, of course, that Balto-Slavic is decisively a Satem language (meaning that the old "palato-velars" of PIE become fricatives), akin to Albanian, Armenian and Indo-Iranic. In contrast, Germanic is decsively a Centum language (like Celtic, Greek, Italic and Tocharian).

That is not necessarily a contradiction, because the Centum-Satem distinction does not represent an ancestral split (into Centum/Satem) but - in my opinion - can be better thought of as an ancient dialect continuum.

 

[Taranis]

Nope.

It is commonly assumed that the Milograd was Balto-Slavic or even Baltic - among other things, due to Baltic toponyms in the region.

Well, in my opinion, Balto-Slavic may not be a contradiction. Milograd is sufficiently early (early iron age) for in fact there to be no distinction between Baltic and Slavic. I mentioned before, many of the key sound changes of Proto-Slavic occured only after the contact with Germanic speakers, or even later during the Migration Period, therefore its plausible that in the time slice of Milograd, it would have been undifferentiated "Balto-Slavic". Hence also the idea that the "Venedi" were in fact Balto-Slavs, and that the distinction between "Baltic" and "Slavic" did not really exist even in Roman times, and in turn, that perhaps, the term "Venedi" was indeed a Germanic exonym for the Balto-Slavs.

On the other hand, the culture which can be safely considered proto-Slavic is the Zarubintsy Culture.

And as I wrote before, the Zarubintsy Culture was formed by a merger between migrants from the west (from Poland) and locals.

The obstacle I see with with the idea that Proto-Slavic arrived from the west (area of the Lusatian culture) is from the linguistic side, again the closeness of Baltic and Slavic. From an archaeological side, the fact that the Lusatian culture tied up into the Urnfield sphere. In my opinion, its more probably that Proto-Slavic developed in-situ in eastern Europe, and with that in mind, the Milograd culture deserves attention.

 

[vandalorum]

I had read all here, and now it's time for my hypothesis. Polacy – Poles it is a term from Lechites Tribe. Lechici – Lechy – Lachy (Lechites), „po” means after. Po Lachy/Lechy = Po Lacy – after Lechites = mix of M-458, Z-280, and I2a1b + I1 people.
So real Lechites are/were m-458 (l260) people. Z-280 in Lechites land were in minority and came here much more later / after (with I2a1b). After Huns invasion – conglomerate of east people (R1a and I2a1b). I2a1b could be Huns gene. From Eupedia map I see I2a1b is still good present in west part of Belarus and Ukraine. In V century they settled in south Poland and north Czech Republic and Slovakia. West border was Lusatia (significant number of I2a1b) east Lviv. They learned and changed Lechites language, named themselves White Croatians and in VII century moved south at the invitation of Emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogennetos: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croatia.

Lechites were different than Sarmatians. (They had maybe similar language as contemporary Portuguese and Spanish people can understand each other) It was cultural influence and different subclades. But the Hunns invade push Sarmatians west. Sarmatians stay, Huns (I2a1b) go south.
Greater Poland dialect is still close to extinct Polabian language. Because of medieval politics Polish rulers decided to get old east-russian language as their own. So polish literary language are same old-rusian as today belarusian or ukrainian. But west parts of Poland have Polabian or Czechs word in local dialects.

 

[Tomenable]

King Waldemar IV of Denmark who died in 1375 assumed the official title of "King of the Wends"

That's because he conquered Western Pomerania where Slavic people lived (Slavic was still spoken in the region at that time).

wendish lands was originally ocuppied by th evandal confederation

Not "originally" because the Vandals were Late Iron Age invaders - like all ancient Germanic people east of the Elbe / Oder Rivers.

And according to late prof. Józef Kostrzewski, the Vandals established themselves as just the ruling class, like later Normans in England.

So according to Józef Kostrzewski, the Vandal Confederation had only Germanic-speaking ruling class, while the rest of the society was Non-Germanic.

Just like England after the Norman conquest had French-speaking elite and ruling class, while the bulk of the society continued to speak Anglo-Saxon.

After Normans and French conquered England, they adopted name "English" from local Anglo-Saxons who had been conquered by them.

Germanic-speaking invaders adopted name "Vandal confederation" from local Venedi / Wends who had been conquered.

Just like later Kings of Denmark - after conquering areas inhabited by Slavic population - adopted the title "kings of the Wends".

 

[Tomenable]

The obstacle I see with with the idea that Proto-Slavic arrived from the west

I did not claim that Proto-Slavic arrived from the west but that people arriving from the west contributed to ethnogenesis of Slavs from Balto-Slavs. Proto-Slavic was simply Balto-Slavic - but how did Slavic emerge from Balto-Slavic (which was more similar to Baltic?). By influence of foreign immigration. From the west - IMO.

The Vandals are commonly thought to have been a nation of Teutonic descent like the Goths,

The Vandals and the Goths were as much of Teutonic descent as modern English people are descendants of French-speaking conquerors from Normandy.

Remember that after the conquest of year 1066, for several centuries elites, the rulling class, and kings of England all spoke French language.

The same was in case of Vandals and Goths - the ruling classes were Germanic-speaking but the rest of the society were not of Teutonic descent.

so whats the issue?

Mass migrations.

 

[Tomenable]

Arvistro,

Poland since the end of the Piast rule (1370) and since the reign of King Louis (late 14th century), was ruled de facto by Polish nobility (so called noble democracy) and not by kings, power of whom was limited and who could reign only when supported by majority of Polish nobles.

Jogaila was allowed to get Polish crown because Polish nobles agreed to give him this crown (and officially he was not even the king of Poland, but just the husband of Polish queen Jadwiga - who was officially "the female king" until her death, though of course de facto the nobility was in charge), in exchange for incorporating Lithuania into the Polish sphere of influence - as the Union of Krewo clearly says:

Document of the Union of Krewo from 1385 says:

Demum etiam Jagalo dux saepedictus promittit terras suas Litvaniae et Rusiae coronae regni Poloniae perpetuo applicare.

In short - Jogaila promised to incorporate Lithuania and Russia to Poland (as integral parts of the Polish Crown) forever (perpetuo applicare).

In other words Polish nobility wanted to annex Lithuania into their realm, and Jogaila agreed to sell his country in exchange for being recognized as the husband of Polish queen (that's why Lithuanian nationalists still consider Jogaila as traitor of Lithuania today) and in exchange for Polish help in Lithuania's struggle against the Teutonic Order and against internal chaos and rebellions (check: civil wars in Medieval Lithuania).

No surprise that the Lithuanian nobility did not like those extremely pro-Polish, anti-Lithuanian conditions - and eventually the union was revised (check the Union of Horodlo, in which terms of unification were revised, or google "Polish-Lithuanian unions", because there were more than 3 of them).

 

[vandalorum]

I had read all here, and now it's time for my hypothesis. Polacy – Poles it is a term from Lechites Tribe. Lechici – Lechy – Lachy (Lechites), „po” means after. Po Lachy/Lechy = Po Lacy – after Lechites = mix of M-458, Z-280, and I2a1b + I1 people.
So real Lechites are/were m-458 (l260) people. Z-280 in Lechites land were in minority and came here much more later / after (with I2a1b). After Huns invasion – conglomerate of east people (R1a and I2a1b). I2a1b could be Huns gene. From Eupedia map I see I2a1b is still good present in west part of Belarus and Ukraine. In V century they settled in south Poland and north Czech Republic and Slovakia. West border was Lusatia (significant number of I2a1b) east Lviv. They learned and changed Lechites language, named themselves White Croatians and in VII century moved south at the invitation of Emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogennetos: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croatia.

Lechites were different than Sarmatians. (They had maybe similar language as contemporary Portuguese and Spanish people can understand each other) It was cultural influence and different subclades. But the Hunns invade push Sarmatians west. Sarmatians stay, Huns (I2a1b) go south.
Greater Poland dialect is still close to extinct Polabian language. Because of medieval politics Polish rulers decided to get old east-russian language as their own. So polish literary language are same old-rusian as today belarusian or ukrainian. But west parts of Poland have Polabian or Czechs word in local dialects.

And this is why Polabians do not want to join After Lechites - Po Lechy Mieszko I country. They were more pure Lechites with m-458 as Lusatians still are. We were and are mixed m-458 / Z-280 (and other:I1, I2a1b....) Polabians could be m-458 and (if) R1b / I1 plus some I2a1b but not in "polish" scale.
Germans were / are I1 and also participated in Migration Period. All "I" could grew somewhere near Pontic Sea.

edit:
I do not speak english and I am not any genetic. But I y-dna is from IJK tree. If J are mediterranian and nearby territory then I should be from there also.

 

[Tomenable]

Out of VL29 line L550 was born and with his clan went to modern Sweden territory. They created line L1025 clan who went deeper in Sweden, this line created N2783 clan. N2783 clan went to Baltics before/around viking time.

How do you know that L550 went to Sweden and L1025 went back from Sweden?

Maybe first some of L550 went to Sweden and some stayed. Then of this what stayed, L1025 and then N2783 were born - and some of it went to Sweden.

Is there actually ANY evidence that L1025 was ever present in Sweden ??? According to this link (post by mouglley), no:

http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=844&start=40

"As a matter of fact N1c-L1025 are of Baltic origin only. We can find this clade someware else, but in the Tawasts/Räihä family. But this branch is only a child branch to one of Baltic branches."

Are very any archaeological or other proofs that there were some migrations from Sweden to Samogitia / Lithuania in the Early Middle Ages?

 

[Tomenable]

Out of VL29 line L550 was born and with his clan went to modern Sweden territory. They created line L1025 clan who went deeper in Sweden, this line created N2783 clan. N2783 clan went to Baltics before/around viking time.

What is actually the proof that L550 or L1025 went to Sweden rather than staying on the southern shore of the Baltic Sea.

I found this (on another forum):

"As a matter of fact N1c-L1025 are of Baltic origin only. We can find this clade someware else, but in the Tawasts/Räihä family. But this branch is only a child branch to one of Baltic branches. (...) one of about thirty L1025 lines is the Tawasts/Räihä line. I propose they have some ancient West Baltic origin."

And also:

"The Finnish sublineage of N1c-L1025 was separated very early from the main branch that gave rise to the lineages found among Balts, and we cannot be sure whether this split happened it in today’s Baltic countries, in Finland, Northern Russia, or maybe somewhere in Scandinavia."

And your theory makes no sense according to members of that forum:

http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=844&sid=cb915a815cc91743113eadfb637f27f0&start=50

"He seems to think it's an ancient Finnic marker spread by a Scandinavian tribe (Goths?) into the Baltic states very recently. Of course this makes no sense, because all of that N1c1 in the Baltic states can't be of late Iron Age origin. N1c1 is a Boreal zone marker, and modern Balts took form when R1a from the Corded Ware zone (which is now Poland) moved into that N1c1 Boreal zone during the Bronze Age."

And also:

"Thus, if N1c-L1025 members were indeed present among the Balts at that early time (500 BC – 1 AD), I would expect that their sudden expansion would have taken place at the same moment (more or less) and not about one thousand years later."

But a response to this is:

"Those are the subclades, not L1025 itself. Their expansion is most likely related to the formation and growth of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. You are confusing the original East Baltic expansion with the formation and growth of the GDL. "

And more explanation why your theory makes no sense:

"Also, the very fact that the Varangian sister branch of L1025, having no specific SNP so far, hence usually described as L550(xL1025), is commonly considered to be derived from some Scandinavian (Nordic) population, makes the Northern origin of N1c-L1025 quite likely."

Debunking:

http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=844&sid=cb915a815cc91743113eadfb637f27f0&start=50

"No, that does not follow. One could just as easily reverse your statement's direction to say that "the usual association of L1025 with the South Baltic makes a similar origin of its sister Varangian branch quite likely." Your argument would carry some weight only if you could show that L550(xL1025) in Scandinavia is significantly older than the L550 (both L1025+ and L1025-) in the South and East Baltic."

=======================================

Well I'm not very familiar with new findings about N1c haplogroup so maybe I will just leave it alone.

But you need to back up your claims with archaeological and other kinds of evidence.

There is no any indication that ancestors of the Giedyminids came from Scandinavia.

There is even no evidence of Viking presence in Lithuania.

I googled "Vikings in Lithuania" and found an article, the first sentence of which says:

"(...) the Baltic Region is an area far less written about and understood about than continental and insular Viking activity. Even less is known about the Vikings in today's Baltic states of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. (...)"

So when you have no any other evidence then you can't speculate about such things.

Why isn't there any evidence of Scandinavian material culture in Lithuania ??? No evidence of migration or incursion to the region.

 

[Tomenable]

Sile:

Romanian-American scholar - Florin Curta - claims that Ancient Venedi were Slavs (check this link, pages 5 - 6 out of 7):

http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik08/making_curta_en.pdf

But linguists like Marc L. Greenberg, archaeologists, and most of Central European historians say that Curta's theories about Slavs are BS:

Here for example is criticism of Curta's views on Slavs by Marc L. Greenberg:

https://kuscholarworks.ku.edu/bitst...Birnbaum_Greenberg.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

Curta is basically trying to deny the fact of Slavic migrations (especially those into the Balkans and into Romania).

He claims that in mos places (especially in the Balkans and in Romania) Slavs are Non-Slavs who adopted Slavic language.

But at the same time he claims that the original Slavic-speakers were the ancient Venedi and that they did not migrate anywhere too, but that they have lived in places like Poland and Slovenia since ancient times until today (see the first link, pages 5 - 6).

 

[Sile]

Well, in my opinion, Balto-Slavic may not be a contradiction. Milograd is sufficiently early (early iron age) for in fact there to be no distinction between Baltic and Slavic. I mentioned before, many of the key sound changes of Proto-Slavic occured only after the contact with Germanic speakers, or even later during the Migration Period, therefore its plausible that in the time slice of Milograd, it would have been undifferentiated "Balto-Slavic". Hence also the idea that the "Venedi" were in fact Balto-Slavs, and that the distinction between "Baltic" and "Slavic" did not really exist even in Roman times, and in turn, that perhaps, the term "Venedi" was indeed a Germanic exonym for the Balto-Slavs.



The obstacle I see with with the idea that Proto-Slavic arrived from the west (area of the Lusatian culture) is from the linguistic side, again the closeness of Baltic and Slavic. From an archaeological side, the fact that the Lusatian culture tied up into the Urnfield sphere. In my opinion, its more probably that Proto-Slavic developed in-situ in eastern Europe, and with that in mind, the Milograd culture deserves attention.

Let me understand you correctly.........you are saying that the venedi/venedae who lived on the coast of the baltic sea north of the Old prussians ( galidians, sudini) , east of the aestii, west and SW of the goths where Slavs ?
Is this what you mean?

No linguistic scholar has ever found any sea terms in slavic script/literature , but you are

 

[Sile]

That's because he conquered Western Pomerania where Slavic people lived (Slavic was still spoken in the region at that time).



Not "originally" because the Vandals were Late Iron Age invaders - like all ancient Germanic people east of the Elbe / Oder Rivers.

And according to late prof. Józef Kostrzewski, the Vandals established themselves as just the ruling class, like later Normans in England.

So according to Józef Kostrzewski, the Vandal Confederation had only Germanic-speaking ruling class, while the rest of the society was Non-Germanic.

Just like England after the Norman conquest had French-speaking elite and ruling class, while the bulk of the society continued to speak Anglo-Saxon.

After Normans and French conquered England, they adopted name "English" from local Anglo-Saxons who had been conquered by them.

Germanic-speaking invaders adopted name "Vandal confederation" from local Venedi / Wends who had been conquered.

Just like later Kings of Denmark - after conquering areas inhabited by Slavic population - adopted the title "kings of the Wends".

so you are saying the slavs where already in wendish lands ie, mecklenburg, Pommerania etc before the Vandals arrived in the iron-age, Is this correct?

 

[Sile]

Sile:

Romanian-American scholar - Florin Curta - claims that Ancient Venedi were Slavs (check this link, pages 5 - 6 out of 7):

http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik08/making_curta_en.pdf

But linguists like Marc L. Greenberg, archaeologists, and most of Central European historians say that Curta's theories about Slavs are BS:

the article was not written by Curta........I already supplied you the full article by curta , previously, but you never read it

Jordanes calls one and the same river Viscla when referring to Sclavenes, and Vistula, when speaking of Venethi. This was interpreted as
an indication of two different sources. In the case of Venethi, the source may have been an
ancient similar to Ptolemy’s geography. It is equally possible, however, Jordanes was inspired
here by Tacitus, for, like him, he constantly associates Venethi with Aesti.
« (p. 4

The Venedi/venedae where never ever near the Viscla river

The ‘Wends’ appear only in political context: the Wends, and not the Slavs, were befulci of the Avars; the Wends, and not the Slavs, made Samo their king. It is therefore, possible that ‘Wends’ and ‘Sclavenes’ are meant to denote a specific social and political configuration,

Here for example is criticism of Curta's views on Slavs by Marc L. Greenberg:

https://kuscholarworks.ku.edu/bitst...Birnbaum_Greenberg.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

Curta is basically trying to deny the fact of Slavic migrations (especially those into the Balkans and into Romania).

He claims that in mos places (especially in the Balkans and in Romania) Slavs are Non-Slavs who adopted Slavic language.

I do not know where you are going with this.....I read it, whats your aim?

But at the same time he claims that the original Slavic-speakers were the ancient Venedi and that they did not migrate anywhere too, but that they have lived in places like Poland and Slovenia since ancient times until today (see the first link, pages 5 - 6).

so your saying the Venedi who lived on the baltic sea where slavs, is this correct?

 

[Sile]

this below is Curta papers

http://www.academia.edu/227794/Hiding_behind_a_piece_of_tapestry_Jordanes_and_the_Slavic_Venethi

As he states, Jordanes was the first person to introduce the term Venethi in central eastern Europe......no other ancient historian placed the venedi anywhere else except the baltic coast.

In the end, Jordanes fabricated the term Venethi

 

[LeBrok]

I had read all here, and now it's time for my hypothesis. Polacy – Poles it is a term from Lechites Tribe. Lechici – Lechy – Lachy (Lechites), „po” means after. Po Lachy/Lechy = Po Lacy – after Lechites = mix of M-458, Z-280, and I2a1b + I1 people.

Do we know when word "Lach" was used first describing polish ethnicity? I find it doubtful that a nation would call themselves "after Lechites", like leftovers of someone else, it is not very proud name. Even if Polach changed into Polak, the meaning of the word had different roots.
We can also receive word Lach when we drop V from Vlach. Vlahs are Romance speaking remnants of Roman Empire on Balkans, hens name Wlochy in Polish and other Slavic languages for Italians, who are also Romance speakers. Lachy was a description of Poles used by Ukrainians mainly. Poles were Roman Catholics and nobles spoke Latin. Perhaps this is why Ukrainians, being Orthodox Christians, started calling Poles Vlachs as a description of Roman culture, later simplifying and dropping V, and retaining Lachs. The fact that original Vlachs also settled around Karpaty and Western Ukraine could help the confusion and misnomer.

So real Lechites are/were m-458 (l260) people. Z-280 in Lechites land were in minority and came here much more later / after (with I2a1b).

Perhaps Lechites were Celts or Romans and Slavs called them Vlachs?

After Huns invasion – conglomerate of east people (R1a and I2a1b). I2a1b could be Huns gene.

It make sense if Huns were Slavs. Who were Huns? There is not much I2a Dinaric in Mongols or in Kazakhstan.

From Eupedia map I see I2a1b is still good present in west part of Belarus and Ukraine. In V century they settled in south Poland and north Czech Republic and Slovakia. West border was Lusatia (significant number of I2a1b) east Lviv. They learned and changed Lechites language, named themselves White Croatians and in VII century moved south at the invitation of Emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogennetos: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croatia.

It's just that nobody really know where white Croatia was located. Probably somewhere in Carpathian mountains, Hrvaty. The biggest problem of your hypothesis is that Lusatian Culture ended about 1,000 years before we hear anything about Slavs, Croats in this instance. Croats never met Lusatians.

Lechites were different than Sarmatians. (They had maybe similar language as contemporary Portuguese and Spanish people can understand each other) It was cultural influence and different subclades. But the Hunns invade push Sarmatians west. Sarmatians stay, Huns (I2a1b) go south.

How can you even start guessing what language your Lechites spoke?! You just really really really want the to speak Slavic. Wouldn't it be so bad if they spoke Germanic or Celtic?

Greater Poland dialect is still close to extinct Polabian language. Because of medieval politics Polish rulers decided to get old east-russian language as their own.

There are always regional differences called dialects, also containing many borrowed words from neighbours.
Polish rulers were busy learning Latin not some east russian dialects.

So polish literary language are same old-rusian as today belarusian or ukrainian.

Wow

But west parts of Poland have Polabian or Czechs word in local dialects.

Because they are neighbors? There are also germanic words in Polish. What does that mean?

 

[Tomenable]

In the end, Jordanes fabricated the term Venethi

What ??? In the same you can claim that Ancient historians like Ptolemy or Tacitus fabricated this term.

All terms are "fabricated" because they are just terms, which denote some things. This is basics of logics.

By the way - Fredegar's Chronicle (Chronica Francorum, Frankish Chronicle) also talks about Slavs as the the Venedi.

the Wends, and not the Slavs, were befulci of the Avars; the Wends, and not the Slavs, made Samo their king.

Samo was made the king of the Slavic federation, he was elected by united Slavic tribes. Read the Fredegar's Chronicle.

Samo was originally a smuggler of weapons who traded (illegaly) with Slavs, selling them Frankish swords (exporting swords from the Frankish Empire was illegal at that time). After the Slavic-Avar war started, Samo - with his bodyguard unit - was travelling across Slavic lands to sell them more swords, as usual. He (with his bodyguards) encountered Slavs when they were just preparing to battle against the Avars, he joined their army and supported them in battle - showing courage and killing many Avars (according to Fredegar's Chronicle).

Grateful for his help and admiring his bravery in battle, Slavic tribes democratically elected Samo their king.

This is how it happened according to Chronica Francorum. Though the assumption that he was trading weapons is my theory. Chronica Francorum only says that he was a merchant / trader trading with Slavs. But IMO he was an illegal smuggler of weapons.

As for Samo's ethnicity - he was born in the region of Sens at the Yonne River in what is now Central France. That region was overwhelmingly Gallo-Romano, and so was most certainly Samo. So he lived in the Frankish Empire but he was a Gallo-Roman guy.

Later he adopted Slavic identity and he had 22 Slavic wives (according to Fredegar - the main source for that period).

Lusatian Culture ended about 1,000 years before we hear anything about Slavs

The so called "Pomeranian" Culture was in fact Late Lusatian Culture - continuation of the Lusatian. And it ended in the 3rd century BC. At that time (3rd century BC) people of that culture emigrated east, contributing to formation of the Zarubintsy Culture.

We hear about the Slavs (the Antes in this case) for the first time in the 4th century AD in Ukraine.

Some regions belonging to the Zarubintsy Culture were invaded first by Sarmatians and later by Goths. The Zarubintsy Culture were IMO Slavs. And a very large role in creation of that culture (in the 3rd century BC) was played by descendants of the Late Lusatian Culture. The Zarubintsy developed from cultural influences of earlier local Milograd Culture and immigrants from the Late Lusatian Culture.

Which is consistent with my hypothesis - that "Lusatians" mixed with the "Milogradians", and Slavs emerged as the result.

 

[Tomenable]

How can you even start guessing what language your Lechites spoke?!

Lechites did not exist.

It is a term coined later to describe North-Western Slavs, descendants of legendary Lech (or Lechius in Latin).

There was a legend about two brothers - Lechius and Czechius. Another version has three brothers - Lech, Czech and Rus.

According to this legend Czechs, Slovaks and Lusatians / Sorbs are descendants of Czechius (Czech).

Poles ("Lachs" is the name for Poles in East Slavic), Pomeranians, Polabians* are descendants of his brother - Lechius (Lech).

*Polabians consisted of Obodrites, Veleti and Rujani.

And Russians, Belarusians, Ukrainians according to this legend are descendants of third brother - Rus.

Modern linguists figured out that there is indeed a division for Northern and Southern branches among West Slavic languages. Czech-Slovak-Sorbian languages are the South-Western branch; while Polish-Pomeranian-Polabian languages are the North-Western branch.

Therefore they called these North-Western Slavic languages - Lechitic languages - after that legendary guy called Lech.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lechitic_languages

The South-Western Slavic group was called "Czecho-Slovak languages". And Lechites = North-Western Slavs.

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In East Slavic languages the name for Poles is "Lachs" or "Lyakhs" and similar.

Poland is (or was in the past) "Lechistan" in Turkish language. "Lechia" was also a name for Poland.

Probably the legend is very old and these names are derived from that legend.

In the Middle Ages and in the Early Modern Era Poles were frequently called "Sarmatians", "Vandals", "Scythians", etc.

So this is nothing strange. People derive names from legends or from ancient inhabitants of the same territory.

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White Croats were Slavs - all Croats are Slavs, and their name is no more "Iranic" than that of Serbs or Czechs. After all, people called Serboi are mentioned for example by Pliny the Elder (23 - 79 AD), as a tribe living in the region of Caucasus. There was an ancient Scytho-Sarmatian tribe called Zinchi / Cissi. It is a similar story as with Horohoati / Chroates, who are placed by Persian and Greek Hellenistic sources in Arakhosia (region called Harahvati in the Avestan language). Later there was also a tribe called Choruatos - mentioned as living near Caucasus and near eastern banks of the Black Sea. But as I wrote - we could as well claim that Serbs are descendants of Pliny's Serboi and Czechs are descendants of ancient Zinchi / Cissi. There are alternative, Non-Iranic, Slavic etymologies for all these names too.