Preview: Upcoming Ancient Greek Transect (Mesolithic to Medieval) from Biomuse.

[Palermo Trapani]

I don't think Neolithic Greeks would have had red or blonde hair. In fact, they would have been overwhelmingly black haired with olive or even darker complexion. I suspect when lighter hair pops up, it is from the Balkans (and steppe by extension). So whenever we have this "steppe" influence there would be a chance for lighter skin and hair, which would still be a minority. I'm not sure if those frescos are far off. My good friend is of Maltese extract and could be described as medium complexion and still tans like an Arab person. Doesn't look far from the male frescos after a few summer afternoons in the sun.

The 3 Southern Arc papers published in 2022 (Lazaridis et al) addressed the spread of Indo European languages. Of course for individuals with strong dogmatic views on where the Pre-Indo European Homeland was, those papers caused lots of divergent opinions. For me, I think it is a fascinating question but if the Pre-Indo European Homeland was South of the Caucuses in Georgia-Armenia or North of them in the Pontic Steppe, not going to lose any sleep over it. In addition, the paper "A genetic probe into the ancient and medieval historyof Southern Europe and West Asia" did phenotype analysis on southern Arc and non-Southern Arc samples. For the Southern arc dating back 16,000 years, the modal phenotype was Intermediate in Skin tone with brown/black hair and brown eyes. Thus, the phenotype associated with Anatolia, Southern Caucuses, Iran, Levant across Southern Europe has in essence been fixed since 14,000 BC.

From the paper:

"Fig. 6. Pigmentation in West Eurasia. (A to C) We show the temporal distribution of genetically predicted eye (A), skin (B), and hair (C) color in West Eurasians of the last 16,000 years; each point represents an individual, with the top row for each subphenotype corresponding to the Southern Arc and the bottom row corresponding to Northern, Central, and Western Europeans and people of the Eurasian steppe. ky BP, thousand years before the present. (D) Composite phenotypes of all three aspects of pigmentation using the same color scheme as (A) to (C) and denoted as eye color (circle), hair color (top), and skin color (bottom) in the composite phenotype symbols. The modal phenotype of West Eurasians had brown eyes, intermediate skin pigmentation, and brown hair, with the highest prevalence (Fisher’s exact test) of low pigmentation outside the Southern Arc (in the rest of Europe and the Eurasian steppe)."

Supplement S3 provides the tables with all the samples. 705 southern arc samples and 1194 non-Southern Arc samples. 474 of the southern Arc samples had intermediate Skin tone (67%) while 68% of the non-Southern arc had the same. Pale skin was in 1.7% of the southern arc vs. 5.9% of the non-Southern arc. Darker skin tone was the rest. 6% of the Southern arc had blue eyes while 16% of the non-southern arc samples.

I think we can all agree that Intermediate Skin tone would be what the Fitzpatrick scale used by Dermatologist (Harvard Professor Fitzpatrick) calls type 3 skin tone.

 

[Angela]

The 3 Southern Arc papers published in 2022 addressed the spread of Indo European languages. Of course for individuals with strong dogmatic views on where the Pre-Indo European Homeland was, those papers caused lots of divergent opinions. For me, I think it is a fascinating question but if the Pre-Indo European Homeland was South of the Caucuses in Georgia-Armenia or North of them in the Pontic Steppe, not going to lose any sleep over it. In addition, the paper "A genetic probe into the ancient and medieval historyof Southern Europe and West Asia" did phenotype analysis on southern Arc and non-Southern Arc samples. For the Southern arc dating back 16,000 years, the modal phenotype was Intermediate in Skin tone with brown/black hair and brown eyes. Thus, the phenotype associated with Anatolia, Southern Caucuses, Iran, Levant across Southern Europe has in essence been fixed since 14,000 years ago.

From the paper:

"Fig. 6. Pigmentation in West Eurasia. (A to C) We show the temporal distribution of genetically predicted eye (A), skin (B), and hair (C) color in West Eurasians of the last 16,000 years; each point represents an individual, with the top row for each subphenotype corresponding to the Southern Arc and the bottom row corresponding to Northern, Central, and Western Europeans and people of the Eurasian steppe. ky BP, thousand years before the present. (D) Composite phenotypes of all three aspects of pigmentation using the same color scheme as (A) to (C) and denoted as eye color (circle), hair color (top), and skin color (bottom) in the composite phenotype symbols. The modal phenotype of West Eurasians had brown eyes, intermediate skin pigmentation, and brown hair, with the highest prevalence (Fisher’s exact test) of low pigmentation outside the Southern Arc (in the rest of Europe and the Eurasian steppe)."

Supplement S3 provides the tables with all the samples. 705 southern arc samples and 1194 non-Southern Arc samples. 474 of the southern Arc samples had intermediate Skin tone (67%) while 68% of the non-Southern arc had the same. Pale skin was in 1.7% of the southern arc vs. 5.9% of the non-Southern arc. Darker skin tone was the rest. 6% of the Southern arc had blue eyes while 16% of the non-southern arc samples.

I think we can all agree that Intermediate Skin tone would be what the Fitzpatrick scale used by Dermatologist (Harvard Professor Fitzpatrick) calls type 3 skin tone.

I think what a lot of people have difficulty grasping is that pale pigmentation is a very late development in human beings. There were differences even 2000 years ago, with the evolution still continuing after that.

They have to get over thinking that people even in Bronze Age central Europe would have looked just like the people today in terms of percentages. I remember when they dug up a Bronze Age warrior in Poland and the scientists were apparently in consternation that he was darker than modern Poles.

I can't for the life of me understand what bothers people so much. I come from a family where my mother and all her relatives had dark hair, olive skin and brown eyes. My father's family was red or light brown haired, with light eyes and very fair skin. I never heard it discussed. All I know is that my father always said my mother was the most beautiful woman in the room.

Amateur population genetics has been a sad revalation of people's

 

[Hawk]

I am very light skinned myself, and not something i like about it, i cannot go out in the sun too much due to freckles. I wish i took my father's side more, to get that easy suntan.

 

[Pax Augusta]

I think what a lot of people have difficulty grasping is that pale pigmentation is a very late development in human beings.

Totally agreed.

 

[Jovialis]

Even if tan, he looks like a typical Mediterranean Southern European person.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Look at the shape of the nose as well. It looks like an elegant aquiline nose, seen in some southern European people.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]To me the Minoans and people of neolithic Greece and Aegean represent the proto-[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Mediterranean substrate in autosomal genetics, and phenotype. The combination of Anatolian_N and CHG/IN that was with their composition, as well as their physical appearance from frescos are reflected in many modern Greeks and Italians.[/FONT]

 

[Jovialis]

I think what a lot of people have difficulty grasping is that pale pigmentation is a very late development in human beings. There were differences even 2000 years ago, with the evolution still continuing after that.

They have to get over thinking that people even in Bronze Age central Europe would have looked just like the people today in terms of percentages. I remember when they dug up a Bronze Age warrior in Poland and the scientists were apparently in consternation that he was darker than modern Poles.

I can't for the life of me understand what bothers people so much. I come from a family where my mother and all her relatives had dark hair, olive skin and brown eyes. My father's family was red or light brown haired, with light eyes and very fair skin. I never heard it discussed. All I know is that my father always said my mother was the most beautiful woman in the room.

Amateur population genetics has been a sad revalation of people's

Indeed, the "Nordic" phenotype-combination of blonde hair, blue eyes, and pale skin is younger than the Pyramids, according to David Reich.

 

[Omino]

Even if tan, he looks like a typical Mediterranean Southern European person.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Look at the shape of the nose as well. It looks like an elegant aquiline nose, seen in some southern European people.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]To me the Minoans and people of neolithic Greece and Aegean represent the proto-[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Mediterranean substrate in autosomal genetics, and phenotype. The combination of Anatolian_N and CHG/IN that was with their composition, as well as their physical appearance from frescos are reflected in many modern Greeks and Italians.[/FONT]

This combination represents the vast majority of the Italian/Greek DNA so it's pretty obvious that their physical characteristics still dominate.
PS the Prince is not supertanned or anything close to that.The average Greek easily can be as tanned as him during the summer.

 

[Pax Augusta]

Even if tan, he looks like a typical Mediterranean Southern European person.

Look at the shape of the nose as well. It looks like an elegant aquiline nose, seen in some southern European people.

To me the Minoans and people of neolithic Greece and Aegean represent the proto-Mediterranean substrate in autosomal genetics, and phenotype. The combination of Anatolian_N and CHG/IN that was with their composition, as well as their physical appearance from frescos are reflected in many modern Greeks and Italians.

It's not realistic whatever it represents. If Minoan art influenced later art, starting with Greek art, Minoan art itself was influenced by Egyptian art from which it inherited several artistic conventions, including that of portraying men as reddish/tanned and women as pale.

What does Mediterranean mean, anyway? Who can be called 'Mediterranean'? A dolichocephalus gracile med? An atlanto-med? Can someone who is alpinoid or dinaric be considered a Mediterranean?

These are old concepts. Perhaps it is time to go further.

This combination represents the vast majority of the Italian/Greek DNA so it's pretty obvious that their physical characteristics still dominate.
PS the Prince is not supertanned or anything close to that.The average Greek easily can be as tanned as him during the summer.

That image above of the Prince of the Lilies is a 20th century reconstruction.

This is supposed to be the original, or rather, the reconstruction using the original pieces.

 

[torzio]

Indeed, the "Nordic" phenotype-combination of blonde hair, blue eyes, and pale skin is younger than the Pyramids, according to David Reich.

its fiction when you state Nordic as blond in majority ..................blue eyes, yes...........blond, no ..............only 25% of the populace remain blond.

The most common haircolour is light blonde when young - a colour that normally changes by the time you are 10 years of age into a colour called “råttfärgat” (“rat coloured”) ......as known in the local languages.

https://en.bab.la/dictionary/swedish-english/råttfärgad

 

[Jovialis]

its fiction when you state Nordic as blond in majority ..................blue eyes, yes...........blond, no ..............only 25% of the populace remain blond.

The most common haircolour is light blonde when young - a colour that normally changes by the time you are 10 years of age into a colour called “råttfärgat” (“rat coloured”) ......as known in the local languages.

https://en.bab.la/dictionary/swedish-english/råttfärgad

What are you talking about? it was in the 2018 book by David Reich. You are completely misunderstanding the post.

 

[torzio]

What are you talking about? it was in the 2018 book by David Reich. You are completely misunderstanding the post.

Are you referring to his book ( Who We Are and How We Got Here: Ancient DNA and the New Science of the Human Past
David Reich ) in which it states that michael Dietrich did a test in the 1960's to claim a fabricated “Nordic hypothesis.” based on 2 million USA servicemen thoughts ?

 

[torzio]

Are you referring to his book ( Who We Are and How We Got Here: Ancient DNA and the New Science of the Human Past
David Reich ) in which it states that michael Dietrich did a test in the 1960's to claim a fabricated “Nordic hypothesis.” based on 2 million USA servicemen thoughts ?

comments of Nordic Hypothesis is the same BS as the current "woke" idiots

 

[Jovialis]

comments of Nordic Hypothesis is the same BS as the current "woke" idiots

What the hell are you even saying? Honestly, I don't have time to listen to a ignorant and belligerent inconsequential nonsense.

I can make this very simple, you can tone it down. Or I can ban you for a month or two.

its fiction when you state Nordic as blond in majority ..................blue eyes, yes...........blond, no ..............only 25% of the populace remain blond.
The most common haircolour is light blonde when young - a colour that normally changes by the time you are 10 years of age into a colour called “råttfärgat” (“rat coloured”) ......as known in the local languages.
https://en.bab.la/dictionary/swedish-english/råttfärgad

Who said they all have blonde, hair and blue eyes?

The combination of the three (i.e. the Nordic phenotype) is younger than the pyramids, that is a statement of fact!

There's nothing woke about that. Australians have zero clue about the context of American discourse, from what I have seen.

 

[Jovialis]

It's not realistic whatever it represents. If Minoan art influenced later art, starting with Greek art, Minoan art itself was influenced by Egyptian art from which it inherited several artistic conventions, including that of portraying men as reddish/tanned and women as pale.

What does Mediterranean mean, anyway? Who can be called 'Mediterranean'? A dolichocephalus gracile med? An atlanto-med? Can someone who is alpinoid or dinaric be considered a Mediterranean?

These are old concepts. Perhaps it is time to go further.





That image above of the Prince of the Lilies is a 20th century reconstruction.

This is supposed to be the original, or rather, the reconstruction using the original pieces.

Well, it is a fresco, that's not photorealistic. Nevertheless, the shape of the nose is undeniably a phenotypic trait that is present in many southern Europeans. As for skin-tone, yeah, its not photorealistic, but it is indicative of sun-tanned skinned, likely demonstrating an active life outdoors as you stated.


As for Mediterranean, the Aneli paper on Daunians does construct a continuum that is "Mediterranean" between Minoan/Aegean and IA Latin/Etruscan.


That's Mediterranean; a cline between Corded Ware/Western European Neolithic Farmers + Anatolian/CHG/Yamnaya


There's no official standard, but to me, that's as good as it gets.


By Mediterranean I mean the people who who seeded the great civilizations of Southern Europe. A continuum of Corded Ware/Western European Neolithic Farmers + Anatolian/CHG/Yamnaya that was their genetic profile. We know their material cultures.

 

[matadworf]

I don't think Neolithic Greeks would have had red or blonde hair. In fact, they would have been overwhelmingly black haired with olive or even darker complexion. I suspect when lighter hair pops up, it is from the Balkans (and steppe by extension). So whenever we have this "steppe" influence there would be a chance for lighter skin and hair, which would still be a minority. I'm not sure if those frescos are far off. My good friend is of Maltese extract and could be described as medium complexion and still tans like an Arab person. Doesn't look far from the male frescos after a few summer afternoons in the sun.

Actually just the opposite. First of all there's no such thing as "Neolithic Greeks." Neolithic farmers spread throughout Europe from Anatolia beginning in the 7th Millennium bce (first entering what is today Greece) and were not necessarily "dark" or "olive" (whatever that means) skinned but actually introduced a light skinned allele into Europe inhabited by "darker" skinned Hunter Gatherers. Indo European (Steppe Pastoralists) were most likely of a similar complexion to the farmer population.

 

[Jovialis]

I have to interject, there is such a thing as "Neolithic Greece" as a genetic construct in analysis, they are highly similar to Minoans (Mostly Anatolia_N + about 10-15% CHG). But this type of ancestry existed beyond Greece, which is evident in the affinity to neolithic Greece among Apulians.


This makes them markedly different from EEF, which is Anatolia_N + WHG, and characterizes the farmer populations of the Western Mediterranean.


Italy is the crossroads between these two types of Neolithic Farmer population. With Northern Italian having more of a WHG/Anatolia enriched substrate, and southern Italy with the CHG/Anatolia enriched substrate.


As for skin color, I look at it this way.


My skin color is white (I burn) but it is an olive tone. I know this because in the dark, it looks duskier than someone like my wife or daughter, who is more pale. Their skin almost seems to glow in the dark.

 

[Jovialis]

^^That being said, saying they are "dark like Arabs" is rather dubious, because there are Arabs who are quite light skinned too. They're heterogenous in terms of skin color, like Europeans, mostly southern Europeans.

This isn't shocking considering Middle Easterners and Southern Europeans share a lot of the same ancestral populations.

 

[Jovialis]

I have to interject, there is such a thing as "Neolithic Greece" as a genetic construct in analysis, they are highly similar to Minoans (Mostly Anatolia_N + about 10-15% CHG). But this type of ancestry existed beyond Greece, which is evident in the affinity to neolithic Greece among Apulians.


This makes them markedly different from EEF, which is Anatolia_N + WHG, and characterizes the farmer populations of the Western Mediterranean.


Italy is the crossroads between these two types of Neolithic Farmer population. With Northern Italian having more of a WHG/Anatolia enriched substrate, and southern Italy with the CHG/Anatolia enriched substrate.


As for skin color, I look at it this way.


My skin color is white (I burn) but it is an olive tone. I know this because in the dark, it looks duskier than someone like my wife or daughter, who is more pale. Their skin almost seems to glow in the dark.

That being said, despite the fact that my wife could pass for a Flemish person, we are actually pretty similar genetically, considering her family comes from southern Lazio and southern Marche:

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Jovialis[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #49FF00, align: right"]2.14776034[/TD]
[TD]Abruzzo_(n=19)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #52FF00, align: right"]2.39793661[/TD]
[TD]Molise_(n=2)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #62FF00, align: right"]2.89470477[/TD]
[TD]Apulia_(n=230)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8CFF00, align: right"]4.11570479[/TD]
[TD]Basilicata_(n=9)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #92FF00, align: right"]4.28032896[/TD]
[TD]Lazio_(n=5)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9BFF00, align: right"]4.56078298[/TD]
[TD]Marche_(n=18)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9BFF00, align: right"]4.57318779[/TD]
[TD]Sicily_(n=37)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B6FF00, align: right"]5.35704548[/TD]
[TD]Campania_(n=17)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BDFF00, align: right"]5.55134672[/TD]
[TD]Umbria_(n=13)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F2FF00, align: right"]7.11778855[/TD]
[TD]Calabria_(n=6)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFCD00, align: right"]8.95902490[/TD]
[TD]Tuscan_(n=28)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFC900, align: right"]9.07428951[/TD]
[TD]TSI_(n=96)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7000, align: right"]11.71733497[/TD]
[TD]Emilia-Romagna_(n=7)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5400, align: right"]12.52008902[/TD]
[TD]Corsica_(n=12)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2800, align: right"]13.81466491[/TD]
[TD]Piedmont_(n=14)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2300, align: right"]13.96517812[/TD]
[TD]Liguria:ALP099[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF004E, align: right"]17.29480499[/TD]
[TD]Veneto_(n=19)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF005B, align: right"]17.68137906[/TD]
[TD]Lombardy_(n=17)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00AD, align: right"]20.09070840[/TD]
[TD]Friuli-Venezia-Giulia_(n=16)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00B0, align: right"]20.18884290[/TD]
[TD]Trentino-Alto_Adige_(n=9)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00F8, align: right"]22.29088210[/TD]
[TD]Aosta-Valley_(n=2)

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[MOESAN]

its fiction when you state Nordic as blond in majority ..................blue eyes, yes...........blond, no ..............only 25% of the populace remain blond.

The most common haircolour is light blonde when young - a colour that normally changes by the time you are 10 years of age into a colour called “råttfärgat” (“rat coloured”) ......as known in the local languages.

https://en.bab.la/dictionary/swedish-english/råttfärgad

'nordic' is a type naming. If you speak of Scandnavian pops, the reality was in the 50's (before massive immigration) around 57% (Iceland) to 65% of hues comprised between whitish blond to golden-very-light-brown for people between 20 and 30 years age.
It's still very lighter as a national mean than any other pop, except Finnish Finns and Estonians. Some northern regions was a bit less often light, evidently, and in other countries (like the Netherlands and Germany) you could find some as light regions.
Surely around the 40's age the hues of hair are a bit darker. This darkening of hair - strongest between infancy to teenages -occurs for everybody (diverse brown, blackish brown too) and seems correlated to thickening of hair by constant cutting, it doesn't appear as strong for body hair and eyebrows. Surely other factors are at play too?...

 

[Robotnick]

The distinction between olive-tan and red-tan, and likewise olive-pale and red-pale is interesting and important here in terms of skin-tone imo.

I wonder which component(s) make for the difference. I wonder if CHG might be the factor here, or if it just boils down to mutations.