Just out of curiosity. Where was the IE proto-Greek language formed according to you? Where did the first Greek speakers come from? How did they get in the South of Greece?Thessaly was conquered from the south by Greeks, the proto-Greeks could not settle in Thessaly because the southern parts of Greece were conquered first, and from there were conquered the northern parts of Greece, which is confirmed by Ancient Greek historians and archeology. You are talking unscientific rubbish.
Could you point us to precisely where the "Ancient Greek" authors said what you insist they said and also to articles about Greek archaeological findings.Thessaly was conquered from the south by Greeks, the proto-Greeks could not settle in Thessaly because the southern parts of Greece were conquered first, and from there were conquered the northern parts of Greece, which is confirmed by Ancient Greek historians and archeology. You are talking unscientific rubbish.
Sources please.No, for example, Larissa was conquered by the Locrians in the LBA. It happened even after Greeks formed separate tribes.
Proto-Greek language was formed in Southern and Central Greece after the infiltrating of IE-speakers through the northern regions of the country. While the Indo-European part of proto-Greek was formed in the region of southern Serbia, as indicated by the northern source in the Mycenaeans (Serbia_Mokrin and Serbia_EBA are the best proxies for steppe and European_HG ancestry in the Mycenaeans, this archeological culture has also plenty of Aegean outliers). The northern regions of Greece were unconquerable, there were large, well-fortified cities with non-IE population. There was no chance for a wild Indo-European population to conquer regions with such superior military power. The southern part of Greece was at the same time well-conquerable and completely unfortified.Just out of curiosity. Where was the IE proto-Greek language formed according to you? Where did the first Greek speakers come from? How did they get in the South of Greece?
"Also known as Macedonian matt-painted ware, north-western matt-painted ware, Doric ware or Boubousti ware (after the excavation site, now Platania near Voio, where Heurtley discovered it in 1927), pottery with matt-painted decoration is widespread in the Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age. Most of the find-spots are concentrated in Western Macedonia (45 in the Kozani prefecture alone), especially along the river Aliakmonas, spreading into Epiros and Albania as far as Korçë and sporadically into south-western Albania (the tumuli in the Drin valley), Pelagonia, Central Macedonia as far as the river Strymon, and south into Thessaly, Elasson, and Marmariani – a dissemination which is presumably due to the constant movement of pastoral populations. Scholars of both earlier and modern times believe that the pottery was manufactured by the north-western Greek tribes, Herodotus’ ‘widely roaming nation’ (1.56). Among these tribes he includes the Macedonians and the Dorians, who, he says, travelled from the south northwards and also settled in the Pindos mountains. The Spercheios valley is believed to have been a major halting-place in the migrations of the Macedonians and the other north-western Greek tribes; matt-painted ware of the Middle Helladic period has been found at Lianokladi near Lamia."Could you point us to precisely where the "Ancient Greek" authors said what you insist they said and also to articles about Greek archaeological findings.
So you argue that pre-proto-Greeks came from the North, skipped North and Central Greece, then the proto-Greeks were formed in the South of Greece. Upon which they went back North and conquered Thessaly, Epirus and Macedonia.Proto-Greek language was formed in Southern and Central Greece after the infiltrating of IE-speakers through the northern regions of the country. While the Indo-European part of proto-Greek was formed in the region of southern Serbia, as indicated by the northern source in the Mycenaeans (Serbia_Mokrin and Serbia_EBA are the best proxies for steppe and European_HG ancestry in the Mycenaeans, this archeological culture has also plenty of Aegean outliers). The northern regions of Greece were unconquerable, there were large, well-fortified cities with non-IE population. There was no chance for a wild Indo-European population to conquer regions with such superior military power. The southern part of Greece was at the same time well-conquerable and completely unfortified.
"Also known as Macedonian matt-painted ware, north-western matt-painted ware, Doric ware or Boubousti ware (after the excavation site, now Platania near Voio, where Heurtley discovered it in 1927), pottery with matt-painted decoration is widespread in the Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age. Most of the find-spots are concentrated in Western Macedonia (45 in the Kozani prefecture alone), especially along the river Aliakmonas, spreading into Epiros and Albania as far as Korçë and sporadically into south-western Albania (the tumuli in the Drin valley), Pelagonia, Central Macedonia as far as the river Strymon, and south into Thessaly, Elasson, and Marmariani – a dissemination which is presumably due to the constant movement of pastoral populations. Scholars of both earlier and modern times believe that the pottery was manufactured by the north-western Greek tribes, Herodotus’ ‘widely roaming nation’ (1.56). Among these tribes he includes the Macedonians and the Dorians, who, he says, travelled from the south northwards and also settled in the Pindos mountains. The Spercheios valley is believed to have been a major halting-place in the migrations of the Macedonians and the other north-western Greek tribes; matt-painted ware of the Middle Helladic period has been found at Lianokladi near Lamia."
"The finds from Aiani finds leave no further room for doubt that the north-western matt-painted ware was brought from the south by people returning to the north and north-west (to Aiani in the 15th century bc), after having moved south at a much earlier date or having moved back and forth owing to their pastoral economy and their nomadic lifestyle. These people were none other than the Macedonians of the historical period, whom the literary tradition directly associates with the Dorians."
Aegean and Balkan Prehistory
Web-based project on Aegean and Balkan prehistory. Articles, bibliography database and discussion concerning the Aegean, Balkans and western Anatolia during late 3rd, 2nd and early 1st millenium BC.www.aegeobalkanprehistory.net
The Dorians presumably dispersed into Macedonia and Epirus, assimilating local Neolithic populations, from the Spercheios valley, because the center of distribution and the earliest traces of Mycenaean Doric-type pottery have been found there (as far as I understand). Herodotus also writes about conquering Thessaly by the Locrians, and archeology echoes this opinion. The Thessalian regions are conquered in later eras by Greeks from the south, I can't find the quote yet... Most modern day archaeologists and historians believe that the Mycenaeans are the Proto-Greeks.
No, the article says that the Greeks migrated to Epirus, Macedonia and Thessaly after settling in Central and Southern Greece. Again:So you argue that pre-proto-Greeks came from the North, skipped North and Central Greece, then the proto-Greeks were formed in the South of Greece. Upon which they went back North and conquered Thessaly, Epirus and Macedonia.
There is no evidence for the latter part of your claim. Instead, your article indicates that there were migrations back and forth. North to South. That I can agree with. As these proto-Greeks mixed with indigenous pre-existing peoples, the genes of the indigenous people were spread throughout Greece. After all, the Indo-Europeans were nomads. There were probably seasonal economic migrations.
This explains how E-V13 and J2b increased in South Greece and the West coast of Asia Minor after the Middle Bronze Age.
There was no Greek-speaking population in Northern Greece. There were large Neolithic cities with double walls until destructions caused by Mycenaeans.The article says that people move back and forth. It also does not rule out that Hellenic speakers were there before. Rather, it speaks of north-western matt-painted ware. Not the Hellenic speakers.
No doubt that certain Mycenaean cultural aspects developed South and went North.
Hellenic speakers were in Central and North Greece already. Quite sure that indigenous people were there as well. But the same is true for the Peloponnese region. The indigenous people were absorbed in all regions of mainland Greece, the islands and Crete, Cyprus. Also Asia Minor.
There is no conclusive evidence that settlements in Northern Greece were strongly fortified, much less double walled. The defensive structures were very modest.There was no Greek-speaking population in Northern Greece. There were large Neolithic cities with double walls until destructions caused by Mycenaeans.
No, they had double walls, everyone knows that well who knows Ancient Greek archaeology. There is no point in changing the Neolithic culture to the Mycenaean one just like that, which was also accompanied by the destruction of buildings and walls.There is no conclusive evidence that settlements in Northern Greece were strongly fortified, much less double walled. The defensive structures were very modest.
Neither is there evidence that Mycenaeans conquered Northern Greece. It was more like a cultural exchange and people moving around.
Greek speaking peoples had settled in Northern Greece between 2000 and 1600 BC.
But Greek going from the South to the North is a nice and provocative statement.
Not all settlements had walls. And the fortifications where not defensive. They were very modest. More like indicating that there is an autonomous settlement.No, they had double walls, everyone knows that well who knows Ancient Greek archaeology. There is no point in changing the Neolithic culture to the Mycenaean one just like that, which was also accompanied by the destruction of buildings and walls.
It is not true, study the Helladic archaeology, especially in Northern Greece. Those people had very huge cities, they were very advanced and had double walls. And no, Greeks didn't settle there, they would be unsat by much stronger neighbours. And I didn't say anywhere that Central Greece was not occupied, only the northern parts of Greece escaped the invasion: Macedonia and Thessaly.Not all settlements had walls. And the fortifications where not defensive. They were very modest. More like indicating that there is an autonomous settlement.
Anyone could settle in any area during the Bronze Age. As long is you didn’t interfere with other peoples business within the settlements.
Greek speakers settled along side the indigenous people. They didn’t have to conquer them.
In time, they mixed. They also went further South. Others went back North. That’s natural evolution.
As for the destruction. All settlements faced destruction sooner or later. Most settlements have multiple layers of destruction.
To think that the Greek speakers skipped North and central Greece because the settlements had walls and later on came back to conquer them is baseless. It’s more nuanced that that.
No settlement in the Bronze Age was huge in absolute terms. The territory of Northern Greece is vast in EBA terms and mostly rather empty in modern terms. People could have simply settled there.It is not true, study the Helladic archaeology, especially in Northern Greece. Those people had very huge cities, they were very advanced and had double walls. And no, Greeks didn't settle there, they would be unsat by much stronger neighbours. And I didn't say anywhere that Central Greece was not occupied, only the northern parts of Greece escaped the invasion: Macedonia and Thessaly.
"Greek speakers settled along side the indigenous people. They didn’t have to conquer them." It is even a more ridiculous statement. When have you seen a peaceful mass immigration at least once?
Even the lands of the Stone Age peoples of Africa living today are not an empty place, and conflicts constantly arise between these tribes over land and resources. And we’re not even talking about the Bronze Age, which was much more developed in Greece at that time. So you are talking complete rubbish.No settlement in the Bronze Age was huge in absolute terms. The territory of Northern Greece is vast in EBA terms and mostly rather empty in modern terms. People could have simply settled there.
A vast migration is only relative. Sure, there were some raids and displacements. But larger native settlements probably survived.
There were still Greeks and Pelasgians in Thessaly even during the Iron Age. So even in a thousand years, the proto-Greeks never fully replaced them. Surely the Mycenaean culture helped Hellenize more indigenous people.
It was all about migration and integration in a span of centuries. It’s a slow process.