Preview: Upcoming Ancient Greek Transect (Mesolithic to Medieval) from Biomuse.

[Riverman]

I wonder if the Dorians most of all brought more Ancient Anatolian ancenstral elements into Greece.

Or that North Greece had more Anatolian influx to begin with. After all, one can simply travel to Anatolia by foot. The Dardanelles and the Bosporus are no serious physical boundaries.

Cypriots look like a mix of Mycenaeans and Ancient Anatolians. So do people from the Dodecanese. So do some early Roman era Thessalonians. So do some ancient specimens from Chalkidiki. So does the Roman era sample from marathon, Attica.

There was considerable genetic variety in Hellenistic Greece. Much more similar to modern Greece, but without the Slavic input.

Quite sure we will find E-V13 in Hellenistic Greece.

E-V13 is surely present in Hellenistic Greece, and be it just due to assimilated Thracians.

 

[eupator]

Interesting, “the pure Greeks”. Do you know where exactly was their adobe in the north. How you know they spoke Greek.

While for the real Greeks “Mycenaean” we have written language. We know according to mythology that their leader Pelops came from Anatolia, and we know that Mycenaean have minor steppe. All these are know facts.

Riverman is regurgitating the ol' nordicist 'we wuz the real greeks' but in a more elaborate way, however the gist of his urnfielder diatribes remains the same.

 

[TetaEglantina]

E-V13 is surely present in Hellenistic Greece, and be it just due to assimilated Thracians.

Or Urnfielders that settled in Athens though we have yet to see V13 appear with Urnfield so far

 

[Riverman]

Riverman is regurgitating the ol' nordicist 'we wuz the real greeks' but in a more elaborate way, however the gist of his urnfielder diatribes remains the same.

Dorians, Macedonians and Thessalians are historical reality, as are other Greek people North of the Mycenaeans.
We know from the context that they were surely no "pure" steppe people, but how much more Northern compared to the Mycenaeans they were is up to debate.
A hint might be the Illyrians on the one and the Southern Thracians on the other hand in the Iron Age.

 

[Riverman]

Or Urnfielders that settled in Athens though we have yet to see V13 appear with Urnfield so far

Looks like those were pushed back by the local Greeks, even though there customs remained to some degree.

 

[eupator]

Dorians, Macedonians and Thessalians are historical reality, as are other Greek people North of the Mycenaeans.
We know from the context that they were surely no "pure" steppe people, but how much more Northern compared to the Mycenaeans they were is up to debate.
A hint might be the Illyrians on the one and the Southern Thracians on the other hand in the Iron Age.

You, guys, never really recovered from Southern Arc and Griffin Warrior/Palace of Nestor.

Thracians are near Myceneans/Anatolians in the relevant period.

 

[Riverman]

You, guys, never really recovered from Southern Arc and Griffin Warrior/Palace of Nestor.

Thracians are near Myceneans/Anatolians in the relevant period.

But not exactly. because they have close to zero Anatolian (or better Iranian-extra CHG-like) and a bit higher steppe. That's exactly what I think the Balkan Greeks will look like, probably with a bit more steppe even, but hard to tell.

It looks like the stronger Anatolian admixture was more restricted to the area occupied by Minoan related people which came before the Greeks and while the Greeks were already there.

By the way, the Northern Greeks had the Mycenaen civilisation as their centre, we see that Mycenaean-Greek influences goes beyond the border of the Mycenaean states and into the tribal Greek areas of the North. However, the Mycenaean states were clearly not "the Greeks", but just a subset, presumably more influenced and mixed (culturally and genetically, with Minoan-like people).

The actual Mycenaean area was pretty small:

https://www.worldhistory.org/uploads/images/14880.png?v=1698784564

The zone of primary influence being visible on this map, but there were extended influences and likely Greek or at least Greek-related and heavily influenced people in much of Albania, Macedonia and South Eastern Bulgaria.

E.g.:

Epirus has been occupied since at least Neolithic times by seafarers (along the coast) and by hunters and shepherds (in the interior) who brought with them the Greek language.[1] These neolithic peoples buried their leaders in large tumuli (mounds of earth that were raised over a grave) containing shaft tombs similar to those made by Mycenaean peoples. Due to these ritualistic similarities, an ancestral link may exist between the Epirotes and the Mycenaeans.[1] A number of Mycenaean remains have also been found in Epirus[2][3] at the most important ancient religious sites in the region, including at the Necromanteion of Acheron (on the Acheron river) and at the Oracle of Zeus at Dodona.[1][4] It is also known that Epirus had strong contact with other Ancient Greek regions, including those of Macedonia, Thessaly, Aetolia and Acarnania.[5]

The Dorians invaded Greece from Epirus and Macedonia at the end of the 2nd millennium BC (circa 1100–1000 BC), though the reasons for their migration are obscure. The region's original inhabitants were driven southward into the Greek mainland by the invasion and by the early 1st millennium BC three principal clusters of Greek-speaking tribes emerged in Epirus. These were the Chaonians of northwestern Epirus, the Molossians in the center, and the Thesprotians in the south.[6] The region inhabited by each of these ethne had its own name (Chaonia, Molossia, Thesprotia), thus there was no single name for the entire region originally.

Aristotle considered the region around Dodona to have been part of Hellas and the region where the Hellenes originated.[

Epirus (ancient state) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[blevins13]

But not exactly. because they have close to zero Anatolian (or better Iranian-extra CHG-like) and a bit higher steppe. That's exactly what I think the Balkan Greeks will look like, probably with a bit more steppe even, but hard to tell.

It looks like the stronger Anatolian admixture was more restricted to the area occupied by Minoan related people which came before the Greeks and while the Greeks were already there.

By the way, the Northern Greeks had the Mycenaen civilisation as their centre, we see that Mycenaean-Greek influences goes beyond the border of the Mycenaean states and into the tribal Greek areas of the North. However, the Mycenaean states were clearly not "the Greeks", but just a subset, presumably more influenced and mixed (culturally and genetically, with Minoan-like people).

The actual Mycenaean area was pretty small:

https://www.worldhistory.org/uploads/images/14880.png?v=1698784564

The zone of primary influence being visible on this map, but there were extended influences and likely Greek or at least Greek-related and heavily influenced people in much of Albania, Macedonia and South Eastern Bulgaria.

E.g.:

Epirus (ancient state) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So “Pure Greek” after left steppe, settled in Epirus and from there changed Mycenaean civilization from Anatolian like to Greek like.

This is beautiful. Meanwhile nothing supports that. Expect this Neolithic tumulus with shaft graves. Hahahahha

 

[Riverman]

Rather steppe groups came into the area of Romania-Bulgaria, there they mixed the first time with locals and were later pushed South, into the area of Albania-Macedonia-Southern Bulgaria and from there they moved into Greece, which created the Mycenaean Greeks, with those staying behind coming under the influence of this new fusion of Proto-Greek with Minoan-related people. Therefore we deal with a 3 to 4 step admixture event, from the steppe down to the Aegean. And another one due to intensive contacts with people from the North (Urnfielders-Thracians) and East (Anatolians) before the classical era.

 

[Hawk]

So “Pure Greek” after left steppe, settled in Epirus and from there changed Mycenaean civilization from Anatolian like to Greek like.

This is beautiful. Meanwhile nothing supports that. Expect this Neolithic tumulus with shaft graves. Hahahahha

You do realize that the wikipedia screenshot you have taken is bullshit, Neolithic people didn't use tumulus as burial rite anywhere in Europe. Neither did Chalcolithic West-Asian Minoan-like people.

 

[blevins13]

You do realize that the wikipedia screenshot you have taken is bullshit, Neolithic people didn't use tumulus as burial rite anywhere in Europe. Neither did Chalcolithic West-Asian Minoan-like people.

Maybe you should reply this to Riverman, he posted this.

Read the forum Hawk follow the discussion and the arguments that everyone brings.

 

[Hawk]

Maybe you should reply this to Riverman, he posted this.

Read the forum Hawk follow the discussion and the arguments that everyone brings.

Alright, it was unclear on your quote what you meant. All i meant was that quote was wrong, no matter who quoted you or Riverman.

 

[D.L.M]

So E-V13 does not seem to be native in Classical Peloponnese.

 

[Philjames100]

Ancient DNA reveals admixture history and endogamy in the prehistoric Aegean

 

[peloponnesian]

Proto-Greeks didn't have Corded Ware ancestry and they didn't come to Greece as unadmixed Yamnaya migrants (which is what Lazaridis proposed in 2022). The analyses of the Aegean paper are also lackluster (not entirely their fault). Based on the genetic data we have so far, the most likely scenario is they originated in unsampled EBA group(s) of the Balkans/Eastern Europe that had mixed steppe/Balkan farmer autosomal genetics and uniparentals.

 

[TetaEglantina]

Proto-Greeks didn't have Corded Ware ancestry and they didn't come to Greece as unadmixed Yamnaya migrants (which is what Lazaridis proposed in 2022). The analyses of the Aegean paper are also lackluster (not entirely their fault). Based on the genetic data we have so far, the most likely scenario is they originated in unsampled EBA group(s) of the Balkans/Eastern Europe that had mixed steppe/Balkan farmer autosomal genetics and uniparentals.

G2, J2a (Anatolian farmer), R-PF7562 (Steppe), J1 (CHG?)

 

[Omino]

G2, J2a (Anatolian farmer), R-PF7562 (Steppe), J1 (CHG?)

J2a could also be CHG(Kotias KK1 sample was J2a)

 

[bigsnake49]

One of these days we will have enough samples so that we can stop all these silly ultra nationalist theories.

 

[Kuivamaa]

So “Pure Greek” after left steppe, settled in Epirus and from there changed Mycenaean civilization from Anatolian like to Greek like.

This is beautiful. Meanwhile nothing supports that. Expect this Neolithic tumulus with shaft graves. Hahahahha

There was no "Mycenaean civilization" before proto-Greek speakers arrived. Greek ethnogenesis begins when the steppe bunch starts to mix with the local aegean people so there was no such thing as "pure Greek". Greeks are the outcome of this merge.
Saying "pure greek" settled in epirus and changed Mycenaean civilization from Anatolian like to Greek like is akin to saying Cortes and his Spaniards, were the pure mexicans and changed New Spain from nahuatl to mexican like. It is absurd.

 

[Riverman]

There was no "Mycenaean civilization" before proto-Greek speakers arrived. Greek ethnogenesis begins when the steppe bunch starts to mix with the local aegean people so there was no such thing as "pure Greek". Greeks are the outcome of this merge.
Saying "pure greek" settled in epirus and changed Mycenaean civilization from Anatolian like to Greek like is akin to saying Cortes and his Spaniards, were the pure mexicans and changed New Spain from nahuatl to mexican like. It is absurd.

I'd largely agree but if we are talking about the steppe-Balkan mixed tribes which lived for a time to the North of the Aegean (say around Bulgaria-Macedonia-South Albania in particular), these were already Greeks before even entering the Aegean. Like the Epirotic tribes and Macedonians etc. were never fully Mycenaean, but they were still Greek. From the ethnolinguistic and genetic point they were "even more Greek" than the Mycenaeans, since those were a later daughter group which conquered the Aegean and mixed with the locals - split from the original tribes they descended from.

Mycenaean can't be equated with the Greeks ethnolinguistically, but of course, just like you say, there is no Mycenaean culture and civilisation without these Greeks coming down and mixing with the locals, which created a new kind of more advanced and city state-already more sea-oriented culture of the Mycenaean GREEKS.

The "original Greeks" were pastoralists and agro-pastoralists, no traders or seafarers. The descriptions of the Northern tribes recapitulate that. One of the better known ones were the Molossians:

Molossians

Molossians, Greek History, Greece Online Encyclopedia

www.hellenicaworld.com

The ancient sources in the Wikipedia article on Macedonians is also great:

Ancient Macedonians - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org