enter_tain
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But we do. Not all Greeks are homogenous. The ones in the Aegean/eastern parts diverge.
Preview: Upcoming Ancient Greek Transect (Mesolithic to Medieval) from Biomuse.
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But we do. Not all Greeks are homogenous. The ones in the Aegean/eastern parts diverge.
Jovialis
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So excited for this!
A Spartan with blue eyes and light hair? No one tell Hitler. :dismayed::dismayed:
Yeah, no one tell Hitler the Spartan is genetically Southern European/Mediterranean, despite those features.
torzio
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Haha
reminds me of the Scene in the film ..True Romance ......when Dennis Hopper tells Christopher Walken, that all sicilians where originally blond hair and blue eyed people
Jovialis
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Also, nobody better tell Hitler that the "Aryans" are darker than modern Europeans.
Jovialis
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With so little steppe DNA, I think this lends some more weight to Anatolian_N bringing some light features, in addition to light skin.
bigsnake49
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That is for me the surprise of this study, the very small amount of Steppe. Which begs the question, were the Greeks displaced by Steppe Invaders from Central Europe? The prevailing narrative up to now was that they were a lot of admixture with steppe.
Hawk
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Hitler should have focused more on his E-M35 Natufian/Iberomaurusian ancestors who were mid-tone skinned.
Dianatomia
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The research team has a video posted in Greek. I took the time view it. They argue that Abdera are colonists from Asia Minor. It concerns an Ionian Greek from the 6th century BC. They settled on the coast of Thrace. That specimen is really not that far off from modern Greeks of Asia Minor.
The Akanthos specimens are originally West Aegean islanders and therefore represent the original Bronze Age population. One of them has more Steppe because it could have more Log02 admixture.
On the other hand SLK also has higher levels of admixture from Asia Minor. So in all, if we exclude the islanders it seems that post Iron Age Greeks have more admixture from Anatolia. I don't see that as evidence for a Dorian invasion from Epirus.
The scattered genes from Log 02 and Log 04 types are definitely the source of light featured outliers in Mycenaean Greeks. Nordicists were off by maybe a thousand years. Thinking that Mycenaeans were majority Steppe. During the Iron Age, East Med/Anatolian elements entered the Greek gene pool. Along with some additional Steppe.
I think E-V13 became a mainstream line because of Slavic inclusions in Peloponnese. (40% to 50% Early Sclaveni admixture) Later Arvanite colonies gave a bust by 5% to 8%.
[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 371.1558% / 3.71155821[/TH]
[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]58.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Dodecanese[/TD]
[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]
[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]41.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Croat_Bosnia[/TD]
[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 261.7663% / 2.61766258
[/TH]
[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]50.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Dodecanese[/TD]
[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]
[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]49.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Serb_Herzegovina[/TD]
Hawk
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That's illogical, E-V13 was reduced in Central-Eastern Balkans by a large margin, and the same Slavs wouldn't increase the percentage in Peloponnese which is twice as larger as in Balkan Slavs countries. It doesn't add up the math. Try something else.
The rumored Slavic samples according to some people in Anthrogenica had some Balkan admixture during their road. A good proportion E-V13 in Serbia and especially Croatia does not seem to be native.
Besides I need to say this: Do you know that Medieval Albanians probably remained endogamous till the at least 9th century. (did not mix with the Pagan Slavs at least not as much) And besides that we know that 10th century South Slavic genetic profile was already created.
So that Slavic admixture that we mixed with was South Slavic. The same will probably turn out to be true for Peloponnese.
But we need to know how the Late Roman age ancestors of Albanians were like. (I believe Lazio/Marche/Tuscan-like)
You are assuming that all Slavs were the same, they were not.
Albanians and Greeks have similar proportions of R1a and I2a while South Slavs have way more I2a than R1a. Y-DNA does not work that way.
Why did J2a die out in Peloponnese but not in other more genetically conservative islands? Besides do you know that Crete has nearly as much R1a and I2a as Peloponnese. ~15% in Crete while Peloponnese has ~20%
It also does not add up that old Greeks were traveling all other the world forgot to spread E-V13 in Crete and Dodecanese Islands. And even in Crete the West has more E-V13 than the East.
I believe the biggest contributors of E-V13 in Greece are the “Roman” citizens of Thrace, Macedonia, and Epirus (Vetus+Nova) + Albanians and Vlachs. Those people we later simply called Slavs/Bulgarians were initially mostly Vlachs under the influence of the Bulgarian Church and weren’t yet fully assimilated.
I doubt 6th-9th century actual Slavs (not Slavic subjects) carried that much E-V13. Even Medieval Serbia and Bosnia were flooded with Vlachs up to the 15-16th century.
I doubt 6th-9th century actual Slavs (not Slavic subjects) carried that much E-V13. Even Medieval Serbia and Bosnia were flooded with Vlachs up to the 15-16th century.
Hawk
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I didn't assume when i replied to you. And i know how Y-DNA works especially a rise in percentage and downgrade depending on the situation. E-V13 in Dodecanese Islands and Cyprus is actually in decent percentages, but not in Crete which still makes sense since their actual contribution there started to wane.
I am actually not saying E-V13 is Proto-Greek, i say that the biggest contributors to E-V13 in Greece was the Bronze to Iron Age Danubian-Urnfield/Eastern Urnfield influences, attested in Barbarian-Ware from Greece, which archeologists connect to Knobbed-Ware and hence to Psenicevo which is already confirmed it was heavy packed with E-V13. There was some disruption of material culture from Mycenaean <> Dark Ages <> Classical Greeks. I assume after the Dark Ages the Barbarian-Ware somehow ended up adopting the Greek speech.
The so called Aegean migrations was a huge event during Bronze to Iron transition age, and for decades it has been talked and brought to tables that a lot of groups via Central Balkans headed toward Mycenean Greece.
Despite all of these, one thing i am quite sure is that E-V13 didn't rose there in percentage with the Slavic invasion. It's absurd thinking so when you consider the recent aDNA samples from Viminacium. How much it was prevalent before Slavic and after, when summing up.
Do you have sources about E-V13 in Dodecanese?
Hawk
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I remember reading once a post by rafc who collected info on that:
Though he didn't quite scope it down further than E-M215, i really doubt that E-V13/non-EV13 ratio would be less than 90/10 with the exception of Cyprus where i would put to 60-70/40-30.
E-V13 in Dodecanese Islands is fairly small according to this project and also in Eastern Cretans who are much more genetically (and historically) "conservative".
Kalymnos (based on 113 matches):
E (3.5%):
E-V13
E-M78
E-L677
E-L791
G (25.6%):
G-CTS11562 x26
G-PF3345
G-M342 x2
I2 (8.8%):
I2a-M223 x3
I2a-S12195 x5
I2a-CTS10228
I2a-L699
I1 (1.7%)
I1-M253
I1-M227
J2a (27.4%):
J2a-M319 x2
J2a-L25 x3
J2a-L26 x2
J2a-M67 x7
J2a-L70 x14
J2a-L24
J2a-M92
J2a-M172
J2b (2.6%)
J2b-M12
J2b-M241
J2b-L83
J1 (10.6%):
J1a-CTS15/Z1828 x2
J1-Z2215 x8
J1-M267 x2
R1a (9.7%):
R1a-Z93 x6
R1a-M417 x4
R1a-CTS3402
R1b (9.7%):
R1b-BY250
R1b-Z2108
R1b-P297 x3
R1b-L23 x4
R1b-U152
R1b-M67
Only 1 R1a and 1 I2a is Slavic here. Don't get confused.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread...slands-post-the-averages-of-your-region/page3
Ralphie Boy
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Eye-popping amount of J2a-L70 in Kalymnos. That haplogroup is in my bloodline, confirmed through a relative (sub-clade unknown, unfortunately).
The Roman Balkans study shows that much E-V13 was found in the Balkans, before the Slavs arrived. Certainly Slavs who incorporated local people could have helped spread some around. That study argues for rapid assimilation of Balkans locals with Slavs, who brought a new “Northeastern” ancestry signal, which is weaker in mainland Greece.
The Roman Balkans study shows that much E-V13 was found in the Balkans, before the Slavs arrived. Certainly Slavs who incorporated local people could have helped spread some around. That study argues for rapid assimilation of Balkans locals with Slavs, who brought a new “Northeastern” ancestry signal, which is weaker in mainland Greece.
Hawk
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That is not a project, just one member solely collecting. Looks straight away off the grid with the papers Imo.