Professor Reich on Yamnaya and Population Turnover in Europe

[bicicleur 2]

BB was the first wave
but the main R1b in Europe are U106 and P312
IMO this was the 2nd wave and P312 may have originated in Unetice

 

[Maciamo]

it's a pitty they don't say anything about Anatolians and Tochars
David Anthony himself mentioned the part of his story about invasions in Gumelnita 6000 - 6200 years ago by IE recieves a lot of skepticism
it seems to me Anatolians and Tochars split from R1b IE before they crossed the Caucasus where R1a joined the R1b IE
IMO Anatolians and Tochars were R1b, not R1a

I doubt that the Anatolian and Tocharian branches split before R1b IE crossed the Caucasus. The linguistic distance points at a separation just before IE languages coalesced in the Yamna period. How else would Anatolian and Tocharian languages have vocabulary for steppe-related terms, chariots, and even Uralic borrowings ? In this regard I completely agree with David Anthony's new paper.

The scenario that makes the most sense is that the Anatolian branch descended from the pre-Yamna steppe people who invaded the eastern Balkans (Gumelniţa–Karanovo), while the Tocharian branch descended from the pre-Yamna steppe people (Repin culture ?) who migrated to the Altai and founded the Afanasevo culture.

I am not as sure as you that Anatolian and Tocharian branches lacked R1a. There is enough old R1a in both Anatolia and the Altai to suppose that they were both R1a and R1b.

 

[bicicleur 2]

I doubt that the Anatolian and Tocharian branches split before R1b IE crossed the Caucasus. The linguistic distance points at a separation just before IE languages coalesced in the Yamna period. How else would Anatolian and Tocharian languages have vocabulary for steppe-related terms, chariots, and even Uralic borrowings ? In this regard I completely agree with David Anthony's new paper.

The scenario that makes the most sense is that the Anatolian branch descended from the pre-Yamna steppe people who invaded the eastern Balkans (Gumelniţa–Karanovo), while the Tocharian branch descended from the pre-Yamna steppe people (Repin culture ?) who migrated to the Altai and founded the Afanasevo culture.

I am not as sure as you that Anatolian and Tocharian branches lacked R1a. There is enough old R1a in both Anatolia and the Altai to suppose that they were both R1a and R1b.

isn't almost all R1a in the Altai Z-93 ?
I don't know about Anatolian ..
IMO hte R1b east of Ural are Tochars, who were ousted by the later Indo-Iranians
do you know more about Uyghur R1b ? are they M73 or M269 ?

 

[bicicleur 2]

The ANE is higher in Scandinavia than in the Ukraine, so perhaps they didn't die out?
Norway
Lithuania
Estonia
Iceland
Scotland
Czech Rep.
Belarus
Hungary
Ukraine
England
Croatia

There may have been multiple sources for European ANE, not only IE R1a and R1b, but also Uralic N1c1 and even Q in Scandinavia or more recent Hunnic Q and C2.
Or the N1a Iron age Hungarian or Turkic or Mongolian ...

 

[Maciamo]

isn't almost all R1a in the Altai Z-93 ?
I don't know about Anatolian ..
IMO hte R1b east of Ural are Tochars, who were ousted by the later Indo-Iranians
do you know more about Uyghur R1b ? are they M73 or M269 ?

I don't have much data on the deep R1a subclades of Altaians or Uyghurs. But the nearby Bashkirs, who have a lot of R1b like the Uyghurs, have a mixture of R1a-Z280 (including the Central European CTS3402), R1a-Z93 (mostly the Andronovo Z2123), R1b-L23 (with some L150) and a bit of Central Asian R1b-M73 and Celtic R1b-L2.

The Tocharians almost certainly belonged to R1b-L23 and R1a-Z280. I'd say in a proportion 2:1.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Just guesses...

On the farmer resurgence my guess would be selection in place somehow e.g. farmer descended females incorporated into the IE had more surviving kids than IE descended females for some reason or other.

On the ANE thing my guess would be brains vs brawn i.e. 100% ANE had a lot of brawn but were out competed on brains and so got pushed back to the mountains but mixed populations, say 15-20% ANE got an effective dose of both.

.

we know some of the Y-DNA of the first EEF, and IE is ascribed to R1a and R1b, maybe some J2a and G2a2-P303
I miss J1 and T whose presence in Europe is very patchy
I think they arrived in the 2nd wave of farmers, befor IE and after EEF : Hamangia, Lengyel, Rössen cultures
Their pottery styles are linked with Anatolia
I think they were more herders than farmers, and maybe it was easier for WHG to join these folks than EEF, hence their resurgance.

Another tribe that resurected was I2a2a.
Maybe survivers of the drowned Doggerland in coastal areas : M284 on the British Isles, but the other clades as Ertebolle and Swifterband along the Northsea coast, an area never reached by LBK nor TRB.

 

[Goga]

I doubt that the Anatolian and Tocharian branches split before R1b IE crossed the Caucasus. The linguistic distance points at a separation just before IE languages coalesced in the Yamna period. How else would Anatolian and Tocharian languages have vocabulary for steppe-related terms, chariots, and even Uralic borrowings ? In this regard I completely agree with David Anthony's new paper.

The scenario that makes the most sense is that the Anatolian branch descended from the pre-Yamna steppe people who invaded the eastern Balkans (Gumelniţa–Karanovo), while the Tocharian branch descended from the pre-Yamna steppe people (Repin culture ?) who migrated to the Altai and founded the Afanasevo culture.

I am not as sure as you that Anatolian and Tocharian branches lacked R1a. There is enough old R1a in both Anatolia and the Altai to suppose that they were both R1a and R1b.

Impossible!! Armenians, East Iranians, Indians etc. don't have some WHG component in them. While there was some WHG in Yamnaya!

" Genetic evidence ruled out one likely related group in the region, the Yamnaya, because their DNA showed the group had hunter-gatherer ancestry, which is inconsistent with the fact that two Indo-European groups, Armenians and Indians, don’t share it, Patterson said. " http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2014/12/the-surprising-origins-of-europeans/

 

[Goga]

Btw, the masterclass by Professor Reich is based on the latest findings in the upcoming paper. Reich didn't come with conclusiond. He only mentioned what he has found. And tthat here was R1b among the Yamnaya burials. Reich was part of the same team as Patterson. And Patterson already stated that PIE was NOT located around Yamnaya, but farther south. The last paper of David Anthony is very defensive and reiterative, like that of a loser who doesn't want to recognise his defeat. http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2014/12/the-surprising-origins-of-europeans/

 

[bicicleur 2]

I don't have much data on the deep R1a subclades of Altaians or Uyghurs. But the nearby Bashkirs, who have a lot of R1b like the Uyghurs, have a mixture of R1a-Z280 (including the Central European CTS3402), R1a-Z93 (mostly the Andronovo Z2123), R1b-L23 (with some L150) and a bit of Central Asian R1b-M73 and Celtic R1b-L2.

The Tocharians almost certainly belonged to R1b-L23 and R1a-Z280. I'd say in a proportion 2:1.

Thank you Maciamo.
Do you also have details of Anatolian R1a and R1b subclades?

 

[bicicleur 2]

Impossible!! Armenians, East Iranians, Indians etc. don't have some WHG component in them. While there was some WHG in Yamnaya!

" Genetic evidence ruled out one likely related group in the region, the Yamnaya, because their DNA showed the group had hunter-gatherer ancestry, which is inconsistent with the fact that two Indo-European groups, Armenians and Indians, don’t share it, Patterson said. " http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2014/12/the-surprising-origins-of-europeans/

don't jump to conclusions to fast
I wouldn't be surprised if there was some I2a1b in Yamnaya too, which represents WHG
That I2a1b ended up as I2a-Dinaric in the Balkans, but it didn't get to Armenia or India

 

[Goga]

don't jump to conclusions to fast
I wouldn't be surprised if there was some I2a1b in Yamnaya too, which represents WHG
That I2a1b ended up as I2a-Dinaric in the Balkans, but it didn't get to Armenia or India

Could be, if you assume that Yamnaya folks were not homogenous themselves. But I don't think so, I think that all Yamnaya folks were every similar to each other and that everybody around Yamnaya had some degree of WHG in her/him. but my point is that Reich was part of the same team as Patterson. And Petterson already stated his conclusion that Yamnaya is NOT PIE Urheimat. Yamaya was just intermediate place where Indo-Europized folks just migrated from there into Europe. If he had his doubts he would never mention that! Why would he come with such a premature conclusion of ruling out that Yamnay was part of pie IF he had any doubts? I'm sure that the upcoming paper on Yamnaya will suggest that PIE Urheimat must be located somewhere south of Yamnaya, because lack of WHG in Armenians, East Iranians, Indians. It's even possible that they found some J2a in Yamnaya too, we only have to wait for some time for the results. But Patterson already revealed what we should expect!

 

[Goga]

Goga may be right after all : maybe Leyla Tepe were the first IE

Of course I'm right. Just wait and see. I don't have hidden agenda at all. I'm not sensitive or insecure for this kind of things. I want concrete answers, but I don't care for the what kind of answers. I'm not looking for manipulative answers to feed my hidden agenda; I want FACTS. I do use my brains and I'm very rational. More people should be more rational and less insecure...

 

[bicicleur 2]

Could be, if you assume that Yamnaya folks were not homogenous themselves. But I don't think so, I think that all Yamnaya folks were every similar to each other and that everybody around Yamnaya had some degree of WHG in her/him. but my point is that Reich was part of the same team as Patterson. And Petterson already stated his conclusion that Yamnaya is NOT PIE Urheimat. Yamaya was just intermediate place where Indo-Europized folks just migrated from there into Europe. If he had his doubts he would never mention that! Why would he come with such a premature conclusion of ruling out that Yamnay was part of pie IF he had any doubts? I'm sure that the upcoming paper on Yamnaya will suggest that PIE Urheimat must be located somewhere south of Yamnaya, because lack of WHG in Armenians, East Iranians, Indians. It's even possible that they found some J2a in Yamnaya too, we only have to wait for some time for the results. But Patterson already revealed what we should expect!

we should await the publication of the paper
but IMO , Yamnaya folks spoke the same language but they consisted of different mobile tribes with regular contacts among them and probably also some exchange of mtDNA
otherwise it is hard to explain how they split along genetic lines : R1b-M269, R1b-M73, R1a-Z283, R1a-Z93 they all seem to have gone there own seperate ways after Yamnaya
i don't think you can explain all this as founder effects

 

[Goga]

We have 6 concrete facts from archaeological and genetic view of points. 1) Kurgans in Maykop are older than Kurgans in Yamnaya. FACT. 2) There was a migration of people from south INTO Yamnaya, R1b was just 1 of those haplogroups that migrated into Yamnaya from West Asia. FACT. 3) There's a Gedrosia component among R1b rich areas in Europe. And Gedrosia is NOT native to Europe, is it? FACT. 4) Indo-European Armenians are R1b (and J2a) folks and the don't have WHG in them. Indo-European South-Central Asians are R1a-Z93 (and J2a) folks that also lack of WHG component. R1a-Z93 in SouthCentral Asia came from West Asia, together with J2a 6) Last but not least, there's J2a in ALL Indo-European folks. There's a lot J2a in Greeace, Armenia, South-Central Asia etc. So J2a has also to be part of PIE. And we know for sure that J2a is West Asian!

 

[bicicleur 2]

Of course I'm right. Just wait and see. I don't have hidden agenda at all. I'm not sensitive or insecure for this kind of things. I want concrete answers, but I don't care for the what kind of answers. I'm not looking for manipulative answers to feed my hidden agenda; I want FACTS. I do use my brains and I'm very rational. More people should be more rational and less insecure...

do you have more info on Leyla Tepe than what's in wikipedia? I don't find any
it might answer my questions here : did Anatolian and Tochars split from IE south or north of the Caucasus?

 

[bicicleur 2]

We have 6 concrete facts from archaeological and genetic view of points. 1) Kurgans in Maykop are older than Kurgans in Yamnaya. FACT. 2) There was a migration of people from south INTO Yamnaya, R1b was just 1 of those haplogroups that migrated into Yamnaya from West Asia. FACT. 3) There's a Gedrosia component among R1b rich areas in Europe. And Gedrosia is NOT native to Europe, is it? FACT. 4) Indo-European Armenians are R1b (and J2a) folks and the don't have WHG in them. Indo-European South-Central Asians are R1a-Z93 (and J2a) folks that also lack of WHG component. R1a-Z93 in SouthCentral Asia came from West Asia, together with J2a 6) Last but not least, there's J2a in ALL Indo-European folks. There's a lot J2a in Greeace, Armenia, South-Central Asia etc. So J2a has also to be part of PIE. And we know for sure that J2a is West Asian!

and what subclade(s) of J2a would that be ?
J2a is very old, IMO they split allready some 22000 years ago
there is J2a-M67 with 2 different centers of highest diversity : the levant and the Caucasus ?

 

[Goga]

do you have more info on Leyla Tepe than what's in wikipedia? I don't find any
it might answer my questions here : did Anatolian and Tochars split from IE south or north of the Caucasus?

I've more info about Leyla-Tepe but it's in Russian. Not much people write about this, because most folks are ethnocentric and don’t like the fact that Leyla-Tepe is the Urheimat of everything. It's also a very recent discovery. It's possible that the split of Anatolian and Tochars occured not in Leyla-Tepe, but rather around MAYKOP! I've only some links in Russian for you about Leyla-Tepe (Лейлатепинская культура) . http://arxeoloq.az/?p=283 is one of them.

 

[Goga]

and what subclade(s) of J2a would that be ?
J2a is very old, IMO they split allready some 22000 years ago
there is J2a-M67 with 2 different centers of highest diversity : the levant and the Caucasus ?

So what, about the age of J2a? R1b and R1a are also VERY old. I do belong to a R1a* which is ancestral to both European and Indian R1a*. Some (African) clades of R1b are also old and not really Indo-European. What kind of J2a did they found not so long time ago in a Bronze age Hungary fella?

 

[Fire Haired14]

So were you present at the conference? Or did someone else who was present at the conference clearly state that? Because it definitely doesn't seem clear to me from what Jean Manco posted. I may be mistaken and R1b may in fact be from Yamnaya, but I don't think Manco's posts on the other forum make that clear at all. And in fact we do have two pre-IE Bell Beaker Rib samples. I wonder if Reich's sampling included Iberia Bell Beaker Y DNA samples. I would assume it must have, as otherwise any comments he made about Iberian BB Y DNA would have been made sans data. I had assumed that all the new DNA samples being looked at were from the Samara region.

JEan said this. It was the biggest news, and as a result there were like 100s of comments about it.

 

[bicicleur 2]

So what, about the age of J2a? R1b and R1a are also VERY old. I do belong to a R1a* which is ancestral to both European and Indian R1a*. Some (African) clades of R1b are also old and not really Indo-European. What kind of J2a did they found not so long time ago in a Bronze age Hungary fella?

IE is 6-6500 years old
it is very likely that anything beyond the R1a-M417 split is IE
it is very likely that anything beyond the R1b-M297 or M-269 split is IE
but 6500 years ago there were allready a lot of subclades for J2a