Proto-Greeks

[Diomedes]

I read somewhere that Proto-Greeks were actually located in the area of Epirus. Could this be relevant with the descent of the Dorians (Heracles sons, Ηρακλείδες) from northern lands?

Another question is this: who were the Dorians and were they before in mainland Greece? If yes, what made them leave? Were the Dorians the so called Pelasgians?

Any thoughts on this matter will be extremely helpful here.

 

[Angela]

I read somewhere that Proto-Greeks were actually located in the area of Epirus. Could this be relevant with the descent of the Dorians (Heracles sons, Ηρακλείδες) from northern lands?

Another question is this: who were the Dorians and were they before in mainland Greece? If yes, what made them leave? Were the Dorians the so called Pelasgians?

Any thoughts on this matter will be extremely helpful here.

The short answer is that no one knows, and if or until we get ancient dna from these groups no one can know. What you'll get here is a lot of baseless speculation.

As for the Pelasgians, that's a discredited, a-scientific term. There were pre-Greek speaking Greeks, and post-Greek speaking Greeks, with another division between pre-Slavic and post-Slavic Greeks.

 

[Yetos]

Diomedes

it called the return of Timenides
Επιστροφη των Τημανιδων

Dorians are called Trihakes from Trikke (Τρικαλα σημαρινα) Τρικκαιοι

yes most modern Linguists believe that Greek language origin is in Today Epirus and upper Makedonia till Albania and Fyrom,

 

[LABERIA]

Diomedes

it called the return of Timenides
Επιστροφη των Τημανιδων

Dorians are called Trihakes from Trikke (Τρικαλα σημαρινα) Τρικκαιοι

yes most modern Linguists believe that Greek language origin is in Today Epirus and upper Makedonia till Albania and Fyrom,

Can you quote some scholar?

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

.


Hi Diomedes, I am Epirotan too, from paternal and maternal side. (Saracatsanian)
There are many opinions about the subject. Personally I wouldn't rely to foreigners opinions, especially to those who never stepped to the place, but from the other hand I wouldn't rely to the "greek" opinions... "Never trust the Greeks".



Generally I have good faith to all opinions, I have good trust to the sources (ancient scripts) as well to the contemporary specialists, but to the one which I am in blind trust is Aristotle the master of termination and classification, - the father of "science"- in all means.
Just for the record to remind you the ten meanings/categories (Αι κατηγορίαι):
Ουσία/~ substance, essence, quintessence, entity, matter, pithiness, nature etc.

Ποσόν/~Quantity, amount, etc. Σχέσις/~ Relation , connection, association. Τόπος/ ~ Place Χρόνος/~ Time Θέσις/~ Position Πάσχειν/~ Suffering ( Πράττειν/~Acting ( Έχειν/~ Having (

Ποιόν/~ qualities


So according to Aristotle, -guess what- Greeks are the habitants of Epirus! (end of the story.)


I consider also that Epirotan and Macedonians are the same people, -or else, not so diffferent- they are something like the "rednecks" or "hillbilies" of their time when they appear with that names. At that point it is good to know that the prehistory studies are not so highlighted till today, -in Greece- and the big reason behind is the "glamour" of the Classic ages. An other think which we have not to underestimate is the absence of free space to support big setlements, and the "recycle" of many of the stone elements which would indicate us a lot for past ages.
Maybe you noticed the absence of megalithic structures in the penninsula... That possibly indicate two things, or the place never "loaded" with -late- neolithic farmers, or it was overloaded...
Anyway the Minyans accomplished huge irrigation and drainage works to Thebes and Thessally, similar if not bigger of that of the Babylonians, check to that point the almost low profile of their fame, allthough the most of the myths or even the later dramas of the classic poets are deployed to that places. (!?) Yes it is true Pelasgians is the most intriguing part of greek history and with a lot expansion in time and place. At that point not to forget Aeacus/Αίακος which is the line of the Epirotan kings Aecides/Αιακίδες as well to Achilles and his Myrmidons.


For the Dorians I consider they appear lately with that name, but is not a foreign stock, some people confuse that but they dont know the simple think that here -Greece-, people having name for every stone... Allthough there are many "dialects" but not "languages" as perhaps the germanic ones.
Anyway I consider thm as remnant of a late copper age (for the greek historiography termination chronology) which usually here -forum- is addresed as bronze age. I have the feeling that are people "out of the city walls" and peasants of the people like "Myceneans" (which is not a stock) as well to Argives or Pyleans or the elite of the Thebes...
I have the feeeling that we are talking for people from a different cast with different attitude and way of leaving. Just mind that is impossible the people inside the wall-cities- up on the hills to live with out their farmers on their plains and without their sheppards to the mountains -away from the corps, as you imagine-, and since we are talking also for a "seafaring" civilization we must not to forget the... Woodcutters, Dorians- maybe?


Here we are
Εκ-δορά, ~ abrasion, excoriation (?) of the woods
Δόρυ ~ the wooden rod of the spear (?) as the spear also.
Δούρειος Ίππος ~ The wooden (?) Trojan horse (dourios hippos)


Sorry for the long post. but this subjects is not for two lines, but for a couple of dozens of books.

 

[LABERIA]

.


Hi Diomedes, I am Epirotan too, from paternal and maternal side. (Saracatsanian)
There are many opinions about the subject. Personally I wouldn't rely to foreigners opinions, especially to those who never stepped to the place, but from the other hand I wouldn't rely to the "greek" opinions... "Never trust the Greeks".



Generally I have good faith to all opinions, I have good trust to the sources (ancient scripts) as well to the contemporary specialists, but to the one which I am in blind trust is Aristotle the master of termination and classification, - the father of "science"- in all means.
Just for the record to remind you the ten meanings/categories (Αι κατηγορίαι):
Ουσία/~ substance, essence, quintessence, entity, matter, pithiness, nature etc.

Ποσόν/~Quantity, amount, etc. Σχέσις/~ Relation , connection, association. Τόπος/ ~ Place Χρόνος/~ Time Θέσις/~ Position Πάσχειν/~ Suffering ( Πράττειν/~Acting ( Έχειν/~ Having (

Ποιόν/~ qualities


So according to Aristotle, -guess what- Greeks are the habitants of Epirus! (end of the story.)


I consider also that Epirotan and Macedonians are the same people, -or else, not so diffferent- they are something like the "rednecks" or "hillbilies" of their time when they appear with that names. At that point it is good to know that the prehistory studies are not so highlighted till today, -in Greece- and the big reason behind is the "glamour" of the Classic ages. An other think which we have not to underestimate is the absence of free space to support big setlements, and the "recycle" of many of the stone elements which would indicate us a lot for past ages.
Maybe you noticed the absence of megalithic structures in the penninsula... That possibly indicate two things, or the place never "loaded" with -late- neolithic farmers, or it was overloaded...
Anyway the Minyans accomplished huge irrigation and drainage works to Thebes and Thessally, similar if not bigger of that of the Babylonians, check to that point the almost low profile of their fame, allthough the most of the myths or even the later dramas of the classic poets are deployed to that places. (!?) Yes it is true Pelasgians is the most intriguing part of greek history and with a lot expansion in time and place. At that point not to forget Aeacus/Αίακος which is the line of the Epirotan kings Aecides/Αιακίδες as well to Achilles and his Myrmidons.


For the Dorians I consider they appear lately with that name, but is not a foreign stock, some people confuse that but they dont know the simple think that here -Greece-, people having name for every stone... Allthough there are many "dialects" but not "languages" as perhaps the germanic ones.
Anyway I consider thm as remnant of a late copper age (for the greek historiography termination chronology) which usually here -forum- is addresed as bronze age. I have the feeling that are people "out of the city walls" and peasants of the people like "Myceneans" (which is not a stock) as well to Argives or Pyleans or the elite of the Thebes...
I have the feeeling that we are talking for people from a different cast with different attitude and way of leaving. Just mind that is impossible the people inside the wall-cities- up on the hills to live with out their farmers on their plains and without their sheppards to the mountains -away from the corps, as you imagine-, and since we are talking also for a "seafaring" civilization we must not to forget the... Woodcutters, Dorians- maybe?


Here we are
Εκ-δορά, ~ abrasion, excoriation (?) of the woods
Δόρυ ~ the wooden rod of the spear (?) as the spear also.
Δούρειος Ίππος ~ The wooden (?) Trojan horse (dourios hippos)


Sorry for the long post. but this subjects is not for two lines, but for a couple of dozens of books.

There are plenty of ancient authors who contradict your claim and consider the inhabitants of Epir, barbarians, i.e. non greek. Strabo, for example. And Strabo considered ancient Macedonians and Epirotes different people. About ancient Macedonians, do you have read Demosthenes? I don't understand what we are discussing here?
About Dorians, we don't know if there was an migration of dorians. But if we accept this so-called migration, some of them were Illyrian tribes. Many scholars recognize as Illyrian one of the main tribes, Hylleans.
First time i heard this theory of Dorians=Woodcutters. Is your personal opinion or this theory is supported by scholars? The ancient didn't divided the world in city-dwellers, farmers, shepherds, "seafaring" and Woodcutters. They divided the world in greek and non greek, barbarians.
P. S.
Please guys, sometimes use some credible sources. Because without this sources, everything is just an unfounded personal opinion.

 

[Diomedes]

I never heard of Timenides. Who are these people?

Diomedes

it called the return of Timenides
Επιστροφη των Τημανιδων

Dorians are called Trihakes from Trikke (Τρικαλα σημαρινα) Τρικκαιοι

yes most modern Linguists believe that Greek language origin is in Today Epirus and upper Makedonia till Albania and Fyrom,

 

[DuPidh]

I read somewhere that Proto-Greeks were actually located in the area of Epirus. Could this be relevant with the descent of the Dorians (Heracles sons, Ηρακλείδες) from northern lands?

Another question is this: who were the Dorians and were they before in mainland Greece? If yes, what made them leave? Were the Dorians the so called Pelasgians?

Any thoughts on this matter will be extremely helpful here.

Proto Greeks means they were not Greeks or Hellenes. They were someone else. Of course there were people living in Epiros before Hellenes arrived . Now Greek language shows links with Armenian. That means Armenians and Hellenes lived in the same place before they separated. As you know Armenia is nowhere close to Epiros. So you better look to Anatolia for the sources of early Greeks. If you have red any genetics discussion Greek genetic mark is J2a and its subclades. They are the hardcore Hellenic mark. If you look on the map Anatolia is the home of that clade.

 

[DuPidh]

The short answer is that no one knows, and if or until we get ancient dna from these groups no one can know. What you'll get here is a lot of baseless speculation.

As for the Pelasgians, that's a discredited, a-scientific term. There were pre-Greek speaking Greeks, and post-Greek speaking Greeks, with another division between pre-Slavic and post-Slavic Greeks.

I am afraid you are rushing the judgement on this topic. All you have to do is type ellasgoi and wiki and you see there is more than enough evidence for the presence of Pellasgs. What is discredited is the effort to hide their presence.

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

There are plenty of ancient authors who contradict your claim and consider the inhabitants of Epir, barbarians, i.e. non greek. Strabo, for example. And Strabo considered ancient Macedonians and Epirotes different people. About ancient Macedonians, do you have read Demosthenes? I don't understand what we are discussing here?
About Dorians, we don't know if there was an migration of dorians. But if we accept this so-called migration, some of them were Illyrian tribes. Many scholars recognize as Illyrian one of the main tribes, Hylleans.
First time i heard this theory of Dorians=Woodcutters. Is your personal opinion or this theory is supported by scholars? The ancient didn't divided the world in city-dwellers, farmers, shepherds, "seafaring" and Woodcutters. They divided the world in greek and non greek, barbarians.
P. S.
Please guys, sometimes use some credible sources. Because without this sources, everything is just an unfounded personal opinion.

-Dorians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorians

[h=4]Dorian of Bronze Age Pylos[edit][/h]A man's name, Dōrieus, occurs in the Linear B tablets at Pylos, one of the regions later invaded and subjugated by the Dorians.^[8] Pylos tablet Fn867 records it in the dative case as do-ri-je-we, *Dōriēwei, a third or consonant declension noun with stem ending in w. An unattested nominative plural, *Dōriēwes, would have become Dōrieis by loss of the w and contraction. The tablet records the grain rations issued to the servants of "religious dignitaries" celebrating a religious festival of Potnia, the mother goddess.^[9]
The nominative singular, Dōrieus, remained the same in the classical period.^[10] Many Linear B names of servants were formed from their home territory or the places where they came into Mycenaean ownership. According to Carl Darling Buck, the -eus suffix was very productive. One of its uses was to convert a toponym to an anthroponym; for example, Megareus, "Megarian," from Megara.^[11] A Dōrieus would be from Dōris, the only classical Greek state to serve as the basis for the name of the Dorians. The state is a small one in the mountains of west central Greece. However, classical Doris may not have been the same as Mycenaean Doris.
[h=4]Dorians of upland Doris[edit][/h]A number of credible etymologies by noted scholars have been proposed. Julius Pokorny derives Δωριεύς, Dōrieus from δωρίς, dōris, "woodland" (which can also mean upland).^[12] The dōri-segment is from the o-grade (either ō or o) of Proto-Indo-European *deru-, "tree", which also gives the Homeric Δούρειος Ἵππος (Doureios Hippos, "Wooden Horse").^[13] This derivation has the advantage of naming the people after their wooded, mountainous country.
[h=4]Lancers[edit][/h]A second popular derivation was given by the French linguist, Émile Boisacq, from the same root, but from Greek δόρυ (doru) 'spear-shaft' (which was made of wood); i.e., "the people of the spear" or "spearmen."^[14] In this case the country would be named after the people, as in Saxony from the Saxons. However, R. S. P. Beekes doubted the validity of this derivation and asserted that no good etymology exists.^[15]

[h=4]Chosen Greeks[edit][/h]It sometimes happens that different derivations of an Indo-European word exploit similar-sounding Indo-European roots. Greek doru, "lance," is from the o-grade of Indo-European *deru, "solid," in the sense of wood. It is similar to an extended form, *dō-ro-, of *dō-, (give), as can be seen in the modern Greek imperative δώσε (dose, "give [sing.]!") appearing in Greek as δῶρον (dōron, "gift"). This is the path taken by Jonathan Hall, relying on elements taken from the myth of the Return of the Herakeidai.^[16]

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

To me is very ainigmatic how can be in ancient times a person at the same time barbarian and Greek. Ancient greeks had not such ainigma. Seems that this misunderstanding is strong among the neogreeks. Can you explain this?

Aristotle/Meteorology
[url]http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.1.i.html[/URL]



...The deluge in the time of Deucalion, for instance, took place chiefly in the Greek world and in it especially about ancient Hellas, the country about Dodona and the Achelous, a river which has often changed its course. Here the Selli dwelt and those who were formerly called Graeci and now Hellenes...

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

@Yetos

You see post#18,
You mean Κυμαίοι from Cumae of Euboea? -Tanagraei?

I did not know.

 

[LABERIA]

like the source that you used in an other discussion claiming that the international commitee for north epirus ordered woman to strip so they could judge their nationality by the type of vest they were wearing?Or when i provided sources for the byzantines calling them selves and called by others greeks by quoting pope innocent the third and geoffrey de villeharouin and you just skip it (if you like i can provide dozins of sources from all the periods of the byzantine empire)
something more than a quote a proof:View attachment 8932 an epirotan coin.
pirrus is a greek name and his sons were elenos alexandros ptolemeos and his daughter olympia here is his coin:View attachment 8934
a macedonian coin of alexander the firstView attachment 8933 all of them in greek letters
From the time of Mardonius' conquest of Macedon, Alexander I is referred to as hyparchos by Herodotus, meaning subordinate governor.^[7] Despite his cooperation with Persia, Alexander I frequently gave supplies and advice to the rest of the Greek city states, and warned them of Mardonius' plans before the Battle of Plataea in 479 BC. For example, Alexander I warned the Greeks in Tempe to leave before the arrival of Xerxes' troops, as well as notified them of an alternate route into Thessaly through upper Macedonia.^[8]After their defeat in Plataea, the Persian army under the command of Artabazus tried to retreat all the way back to Asia Minor. Most of the 43,000 survivors were attacked and killed by the forces of Alexander at the estuary of the Strymon river. Alexander eventually regained Macedonian independence after the end of the Persian Wars.
Alexander claimed descent from Argive Greeks and Heracles, although Macedon was considered a "barbaric" state by some in Athens, whose territories were threatened by its expansion.^[9] After a court of Elean hellanodikai determined his claim to be true, he was permitted to participate in the Olympic Games^[10][11] possibly in 504 BC,^[12] an honour reserved only for Greeks. He modelled his court after Athens and was a patron of the poets Pindar and Bacchylides, both of whom dedicated poems to Alexander.^[13] The earliest reference to an Athenian proxenos, who lived during the time of the Persian wars (c. 490 BC), is that of Alexander I.^[14] Alexander I was given the title "Philhellene" (Greek: "φιλέλλην", fond of the Greeks, lover of the Greeks), a title used for Greek patriots.

About your irony, i will find the time and the post mentioned by you and i will answer. I avoided the answer because is useless to spend my time with you. I know who you are.
The rest of your post is crap.

 

[LABERIA]

You begin that, as usual!



It is obvious what your efforts are, nothing else to promote your anti-Greek agenda with rudiculous arguments and stupid accusations. You always participate to every thread related to Greeks with poisonous comments against other posters, actually your interesting is not to say who you think "you" are, but what the 'others" you like to consider that probably is. Actually your only wish is to prove us that the Greeks are not Greeks while the people which dont "remember" their greekness are more Greek... This is your attempt?
That is how you spend your time to other forums around the internet? -or it is your first time here?


You quote more than enough times, but you dont care about "my" answers, you want only to give negative impressions, cause you are a negative person and you always be a looser, -always to the wrong side...
You are not interested about History neither Anthropology, neither also about Genetics... You are interested to made noise only, and being desperate to believe you, while you dont believe no one.
You ask for links but you most of the times never give, you ask for sources but you rare did, but you ever never have your own opinion you never tell us your thought, except your "chants"...
Once you were autochtonous, sometimes pelasgian, an other times dorian... Recently you discover your Illyrian identity which are the founders of ... Olympic games? -What else?

I know guys like you they are everywhere all around the world... Everybody -here, or where else-, know you.
You are a poisonous person which believe his own lies and wish to conviece the others with any price.
You are a toxic person, I remember quoting me to the Griffin reconstruction repeatedly with three at row same posts with couple of minutes dinstant just to prove us your bad charakter... You well remember, these are the tactiks of the "keyboard warriors" of your kind... Thats you ethos cause thats is just you.


Poisoned, toxicated noise, that is your work here, and everywhere you are... But I tell you wht is the price for all that.
You discrace your people, your neighbours, the others members of the community (Eupedia) cause you dont have respect for no one, not even the place you "place" your thinkings, your posts.
You are not a bad man,.. you are just a boy, but a badspoiled one.
I suppose not. That is your real life


Maybe, I am thinking that could be the last post of me -for you,- but who knows maybe for both of us.
I never quote you, as never gave you a negative rating and I will never do not. It is a waste of time to read you.


Get a real life, -two lines-, boy.

Not only a negative reputation but also a very long post against me only because i asked a simple thing:

Can you quote some scholar?

Sorry, but all this is ridiculous.

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

@ Yetos,
I aggre with Cumae... The thinks with the names is tricky enough.
Anyway thanks, I will have that in mind.

 

[LABERIA]

-Dorians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorians

[h=4]Dorian of Bronze Age Pylos[edit][/h]A man's name, Dōrieus, occurs in the Linear B tablets at Pylos, one of the regions later invaded and subjugated by the Dorians.^[8] Pylos tablet Fn867 records it in the dative case as do-ri-je-we, *Dōriēwei, a third or consonant declension noun with stem ending in w. An unattested nominative plural, *Dōriēwes, would have become Dōrieis by loss of the w and contraction. The tablet records the grain rations issued to the servants of "religious dignitaries" celebrating a religious festival of Potnia, the mother goddess.^[9]
The nominative singular, Dōrieus, remained the same in the classical period.^[10] Many Linear B names of servants were formed from their home territory or the places where they came into Mycenaean ownership. According to Carl Darling Buck, the -eus suffix was very productive. One of its uses was to convert a toponym to an anthroponym; for example, Megareus, "Megarian," from Megara.^[11] A Dōrieus would be from Dōris, the only classical Greek state to serve as the basis for the name of the Dorians. The state is a small one in the mountains of west central Greece. However, classical Doris may not have been the same as Mycenaean Doris.
[h=4]Dorians of upland Doris[edit][/h]A number of credible etymologies by noted scholars have been proposed. Julius Pokorny derives Δωριεύς, Dōrieus from δωρίς, dōris, "woodland" (which can also mean upland).^[12] The dōri-segment is from the o-grade (either ō or o) of Proto-Indo-European *deru-, "tree", which also gives the Homeric Δούρειος Ἵππος (Doureios Hippos, "Wooden Horse").^[13] This derivation has the advantage of naming the people after their wooded, mountainous country.
[h=4]Lancers[edit][/h]A second popular derivation was given by the French linguist, Émile Boisacq, from the same root, but from Greek δόρυ (doru) 'spear-shaft' (which was made of wood); i.e., "the people of the spear" or "spearmen."^[14] In this case the country would be named after the people, as in Saxony from the Saxons. However, R. S. P. Beekes doubted the validity of this derivation and asserted that no good etymology exists.^[15]

[h=4]Chosen Greeks[edit][/h]It sometimes happens that different derivations of an Indo-European word exploit similar-sounding Indo-European roots. Greek doru, "lance," is from the o-grade of Indo-European *deru, "solid," in the sense of wood. It is similar to an extended form, *dō-ro-, of *dō-, (give), as can be seen in the modern Greek imperative δώσε (dose, "give [sing.]!") appearing in Greek as δῶρον (dōron, "gift"). This is the path taken by Jonathan Hall, relying on elements taken from the myth of the Return of the Herakeidai.^[16]

Your post is a selective copy paste from Wikipedia, which show your limits in this matter. From your source:

Dorian invasion
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is about a hypothetical event of prehistoric Greece. For other uses, see Dorian (disambiguation).
Part of a series on the
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The Dorian invasion is a concept devised by historians of Ancient Greece to explain the replacement of pre-classical dialects and traditions in southern Greece by the ones that prevailed in Classical Greece. The latter were named Dorian by the ancient Greek writers, after the Dorians, the historical population that spoke them.
Greek legend asserts that the Dorians took possession of the Peloponnesus in an event called the Return of the Heracleidae (Ancient Greek: Ἐπιστροφὴ τῶν Ἡρακλειδῶν). Classical scholars saw in the legend a possibly real event they termed the Dorian invasion. The meaning of the concept has changed several times, as historians, philologists and archaeologists used it in attempts to explain the cultural discontinuities expressed in the data of their fields. The pattern of arrival of Dorian culture on certain islands in the Mediterranean, such as Crete, is also not well understood. The Dorians colonised a number of sites on Crete such as Lato.[1]
Despite nearly 200 years of investigation, the historicity of a mass migration of Dorians into Greece has never been established, and the origin of the Dorians remains unknown. Some have linked them or their victims with the emergence of the equally mysterious Sea Peoples. The meaning of the phrase "Dorian invasion" as an explanation for the cultural break after the Mycenaean period has become to some degree amorphous. Investigations into it have served mainly to rule out various speculations, though the possibility of a real Dorian invasion remains open.

Exactly what i told you in my previous post.

 

[LABERIA]

@mods.
The language of the forum is English. Can we have an translation in English of this posts in greek language?

 

[Angela]

Unless you provide an English translation you don't get to post in another language. You all know this.

No divisive political discussions, accusations, etc. are allowed. You also know this.

I don't appreciate having to spend some of my summer Saturday monitoring nonsense like this, but I will, so conduct yourselves appropriately.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

To me is very ainigmatic how can be in ancient times a person at the same time barbarian and Greek. Ancient greeks had not such ainigma. Seems that this misunderstanding is strong among the neogreeks. Can you explain this?

No one was 'Greek', so you need to rephrase the question.

 

[Diomedes]

Indeed, the Hellenism was among the different tribes (who were Hellenes), but they did not call themselves Hellas, as one country. They were Athens, Sparta, Thebes, Macedonia, Epirus etc.