Proto-Indo-Europeans were the Highlanders, who lived near the sea.

[worldpedia]

I understand that you feel emotional about the topic, and I concede its interesting, but I'm under the impression you're mixing things up: as I recall you are of Kurdish ancestry, and for some reason you want the Indo-European homeland to be placed close to the area of your own people, that is in northern Mesopotamia: it is quite ridiculous though since clearly non-Indo-European languages are attested from there early on, most importantly Akkadian (a Semitic language, distantly related with modern Arabic and Hebrew), and the Hurrian.

Don't get me wrong, the Kurds speak an Indo-European language (part of the Iranic, and in turn part of the Indo-Iranic branch), no doubt about that, but please, leave the Proto-Indo-Europeans out of Mesopotamia. Wherever their homeland and whichever scenario is the most correct one, they certainly don't belong there.

I'm not emotional. You fellas are emotional. You fellas are ignoring the latest scientific papers of the last years that are crushing the fairy tales you folks WANT to believe in. And common, Akkadians? Akkadians were immigrants form Arabia and they NEVER lived in Kurdistan. Akkadians were dessert people, and Akkadians never lived in Kurdish Zagros Mountains. And NO, proto-Indo-European homeland was NOT in the Mesopotamia, but an area between Leyla-Tepe, South of the Caspian Sea, and the Zagros Mountains. And as far as I know, this area doesn’t belong to historic Kurdistan. Kurdish is a West Iranic language very close to the ancient Avesta language. Kurdish has an ergative contruction and is one of the purest and most preserved Iranic languages. Kurds are Iranoid people and belong to a West Asia, West Iranic race. Before the modern Kurdish race, the Sumerians were the original inhabitants of Kurdstan and NOT the Semites, homeland of the Semites is Arabia and Southern Levant.

 

[worldpedia]

I understand that you feel emotional about the topic, and I concede its interesting, but I'm under the impression you're mixing things up: as I recall you are of Kurdish ancestry, and for some reason you want the Indo-European homeland to be placed close to the area of your own people, that is in northern Mesopotamia:

I never said that proto-Indo-European homeland is the Mesopotamia, I have always been saying that homeland of proto-Indo-European speaker is an area between the Leyla-Tepe and the Zagros Mountains. Those folks migrated then to the Maykop Horizon before liguistically and culturally they Indo-Europized the Europe. Just follow the migration of R1b, J2a, some sub-clades of R1a and the Gedrosia auDNA component!

 

[Taranis]

Banned for setting up an account to avoid a ban. You'll be allowed to return once your current ban has worn out, but we hereby give you an official warning to never do this again.

 

[Silesian]

I never said that proto-Indo-European homeland is the Mesopotamia........

Goga you krazy R1a Mede/Kurd, be patient. Safe and happy holidays with your family and friends!

 

[holderlin]

Andronovo is clearly the Indo-Iranian staging ground. The origin of Andronovo can clearly be traced back to the Steppe. The physical type in the Andronovo burials is identified as "proto-europoid", as encountered earlier on the steppe, in contrast to earlier attested local populations. Andronovo also doesn't really appear until around 2000BC.

At the very least East Iranian people(Saka, Massagetae, Alans, Sarmatians) can be traced to Andronovo. The arrival of Indo-Aryan and West Iranian to their historically attested seats is a little less clear, but knowing that Andronovo is a recent arrival from the Pontic steppe with a clear North->South trajectory one is left with few options. The more evidence that accumulates, the more it looks like Iranian and Indo-Aryan are a result of Andronovo peoples infiltrating through these proto-Urban settlements like BMAC and the Indus River Valley. The linguistics also supports this in that there are a bunch of non IE loan words shared by Iranian and Aryan.

Also of relevance to this debate is that Uralic languages acquired their name for domestic pig from the Indo-Iranians.

These alone are some pretty solid proves and there are countless others, many of which have been mentioned.

 

[Taranis]

You fellas are ignoring the latest scientific papers of the last years that are crushing the fairy tales you folks WANT to believe in.

Let's make a fact check here...

And common, Akkadians? Akkadians were immigrants form Arabia and they NEVER lived in Kurdistan.

You are aware that one of the key Akkadian cities, Ninive (near modern Mossul, in the Ninive governorate that is, aptly, named after the ancient city) straddles Iraqi Kurdistan?

Akkadians were dessert people, and Akkadians never lived in Kurdish Zagros Mountains. And NO, proto-Indo-European homeland was NOT in the Mesopotamia, but an area between Leyla-Tepe, South of the Caspian Sea, and the Zagros Mountains. And as far as I know, this area doesn’t belong to historic Kurdistan. Kurdish is a West Iranic language very close to the ancient Avesta language.

Akkadian is an East Semitic language (together with Eblaite, spoken around the city of Ebla in Syria), and the Akkadians were home to northern Mesopotamia from relatively early on: Akkadian is the third-oldest attested language of the world (after Sumerian and Old Egyptian), and it eventually became the dominant language of Mesopotamia (eclipsing Sumerian), before being itself eclipsed by Aramaic. Really, get your Near Eastern history straight, man.

Kurdish has an ergative contruction and is one of the purest and most preserved Iranic languages.

Explain to me then exactly why Avestan, the sacred language of Zoroastrianism, far older than modern Kurdish, shows no sign of ergativity, and neither does Vedic Sanskrit, which was very similar to Avestan? You also have the case of Old Persian (ancestor of modern Persian, or Farsi), which shows no signs of ergativity either.

Kurds are Iranoid people and belong to a West Asia, West Iranic race. Before the modern Kurdish race, the Sumerians were the original inhabitants of Kurdstan and NOT the Semites, homeland of the Semites is Arabia and Southern Levant.

I was talking about languages, Kurdish is an Iranic language, which is in turn branch of the Indo-Iranic languages, and Sumerian was home to southern Mesopotamia. The Akkadians were in northern Mesopotamia early on and adopted the cuneiform script early on.

I'm not emotional. You fellas are emotional.

I think you're disproving yourself there.

 

[Silesian]

Let's make a fact check here...



You are aware that one of the key Akkadian cities, Ninive (near modern Mossul, in the Ninive governorate that is, aptly, named after the ancient city) straddles Iraqi Kurdistan?



Akkadian is an East Semitic language (together with Eblaite, spoken around the city of Ebla in Syria), and the Akkadians were home to northern Mesopotamia from relatively early on: Akkadian is the third-oldest attested language of the world (after Sumerian and Old Egyptian), and it eventually became the dominant language of Mesopotamia (eclipsing Sumerian), before being itself eclipsed by Aramaic. Really, get your Near Eastern history straight, man.

You still do not explain why the Akadian entry have no word for wine/grape ? Is it because Goga is right, the Akadian's were not native to the region you sight?
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:List_of_Proto-Semitic_stems
grape/wine-Akkadian [----..?......] Hittite: wiyana;Proto-Kartvelian *ɣwino-,^[20] which is probably borrowed from Proto-Armenian *ɣʷeinyo-,^{[21][22][23][24]} whence Armenian gini. On the other hand, Fähnrich considers *ɣwino- a native Kartvelian word derived from the verbal root *ɣun- 'to bend'.^[25] See *ɣwino- for more.............The cultivation of the domesticated grape began 6,000–8,000 years ago in the Near East.^[1] The earliest archeological evidence for a dominant position of wine-making in human culture dates from 8,000 years ago in Georgia.^[2][3]

 

[Taranis]

You still do not explain why the Akadian entry have no word for wine/grape ? Is it because Goga is right, the Akadian's were not native to the region you sight?

Silesian, you're missing my point entirely: Akkadian in northern Mesopotamia is beyond any doubt older than any presence of Indo-European speakers, by the fact alone that Akkadian is the third-oldest attested language of the world, and the oldest attested Semitic language.


And we've discussed this before, a common word "alcoholic beverage" is reconstructable for Proto-Indo-European, but its not the word "wine" (the root is *medhu-), its meaning was certainly not "wine" either. Its fairly obvious that in many branches of Indo-European (Insular Celtic, Germanic, Baltic and Slavic), the word is just borrowed from Latin. In my opinion, the Mediterranean branches of Indo-European (Italic and Greek, poss. Hittite too) likely borrowed that word from a Central Semitic source, and not vice versa.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Silesian, you're missing my point entirely: Akkadian in northern Mesopotamia is beyond any doubt older than any presence of Indo-European speakers, by the fact alone that Akkadian is the third-oldest attested language of the world, and the oldest attested Semitic language.


And we've discussed this before, a common word "alcoholic beverage" is reconstructable for Proto-Indo-European, but its not the word "wine" (the root is *medhu-), its meaning was certainly not "wine" either. Its fairly obvious that in many branches of Indo-European (Insular Celtic, Germanic, Baltic and Slavic), the word is just borrowed from Latin. In my opinion, the Mediterranean branches of Indo-European (Italic and Greek, poss. Hittite too) likely borrowed that word from a Central Semitic source, and not vice versa.

oldest attestation of Semitic is 5000 years old
IMO they were newcomers, ariving in the Levant from Africa some 5600 years ago
there is no proof of Semitic older than 5000 years

 

[Goga]

Goga you krazy R1a Mede/Kurd, be patient. Safe and happy holidays with your family and friends!

I'm back. Best wishes to you and your family too!

 

[Goga]

Andronovo is clearly the Indo-Iranian staging ground. The origin of Andronovo can clearly be traced back to the Steppe. The physical type in the Andronovo burials is identified as "proto-europoid", as encountered earlier on the steppe, in contrast to earlier attested local populations. Andronovo also doesn't really appear until around 2000BC.

Proof? Proof? What we know is that Aryans invaded India from BMAC (Oxus civilization) located in South Central Asia. It’s a proven fact that the homeland of the Aryans that invaded India was Arayana or Airyana Vaeja. Airyana Vaeja was a very mountainous region. After testing the DNA we ofund out that there’s lots of West Asian auDNA and Y-DNA in that area. There’s lots of West Asia Y-DNA, like J2a and R1a-Z93. With other words folks that lived in Aryana were of West Asian origin. Culturally speaking, Sintashta (Andronovo) culture was very different form BMAC (Oxus civilization). While BMAC (Oxus civilization) was very close to the Leyla-Tepe (civilization around Zagros and Western Iranian Plateau).

 

[Goga]

The linguistics also supports this in that there are a bunch of non IE loan words shared by Iranian and Aryan.

Also Aryan = Iranian. If you are not 'Iranoid' you are NOT an Aryan. Speakers of the ancient Iranic languages, like Avestan. Ancient Aryans spoke Avestan and proto-Avestan. It's that simple..

 

[Goga]

Let's make a fact check here...



You are aware that one of the key Akkadian cities, Ninive (near modern Mossul, in the Ninive governorate that is, aptly, named after the ancient city) straddles Iraqi Kurdistan?



Akkadian is an East Semitic language (together with Eblaite, spoken around the city of Ebla in Syria), and the Akkadians were home to northern Mesopotamia from relatively early on: Akkadian is the third-oldest attested language of the world (after Sumerian and Old Egyptian), and it eventually became the dominant language of Mesopotamia (eclipsing Sumerian), before being itself eclipsed by Aramaic. Really, get your Near Eastern history straight, man.

Explain to me then exactly why Avestan, the sacred language of Zoroastrianism, far older than modern Kurdish, shows no sign of ergativity, and neither does Vedic Sanskrit, which was very similar to Avestan? You also have the case of Old Persian (ancestor of modern Persian, or Farsi), which shows no signs of ergativity either.



I was talking about languages, Kurdish is an Iranic language, which is in turn branch of the Indo-Iranic languages, and Sumerian was home to southern Mesopotamia. The Akkadians were in northern Mesopotamia early on and adopted the cuneiform script early on.



I think you're disproving yourself there.

Origin of the Semtic (Afro-Asiatic) race.


And here map of Kurdistan. As you can see Leyla-Tepe is NOT located in Kurdistan and the Akkadians lived more to the south of Kurdistan and not in the mountains at all. Afro-Asiatic (semitic) people are the desert people and not the mountain people. They belong in the deserts and not in the mountains, they will not survive in the mountains... :

No you are wrong. Avestan and Sankrit were ergative constructed languages. Like still many Indic languages in India have an ergative cosntruction. Persian lost it's ergative contruction over time. Old Persian had an ergativity too. That why, I'm telling you that Kurdish is still one ofthe most purest 'Aryan' languages to date and VERY close to Avestan

2000 years old Kurdish Zoroastrian book. It was written in a Kurdish language dialect the Hawrami. Kurdish dialect of Hewarim is a direct modern successor of Avestan. FACT!

 

[John Doe]

Origin of the Semtic (Afro-Asiatic) race.


And here map of Kurdistan. As you can see Leyla-Tepe is NOT located in Kurdistan and the Akkadians lived more to the south of Kurdistan and not in the mountains at all. Afro-Asiatic (semitic) people are the desert people and not the mountain people. They belong in the deserts and not in the mountains, they will not survive in the mountains... :

No you are wrong. Avestan and Sankrit were ergative constructed languages. Like still many Indic languages in India have an ergative cosntruction. Persian lost it's ergative contruction over time. Old Persian had an ergativity too. That why, I'm telling you that Kurdish is still one ofthe most purest 'Aryan' languages to date and VERY close to Avestan

2000 years old Kurdish Zoroastrian book. It was written in a Kurdish language dialect the Hawrami. Kurdish dialect of Hewarim is a direct modern successor of Avestan. FACT!

Semitic is a purely linguistic term, perhaps this wasn't the case in the bronze age, but it is the case today. Lebanese and Ethiopians don't belong to the same ethnicity just because both populations speak a Semitic language.

 

[Silesian]

I'm back. Best wishes to you and your family too!

Nice to have you back my R1a cousin; be patient and take deep breaths, don't get phased. We have been at this a long time and new genetic evidence will either give proof in our favor or Pontic-Caspian-Andrnovo theory.
One question I have that I have not seen much research, numerically R1a in West/Central/South Asia dwarf European numbers? Have you done any research into this?

 

[bicicleur 2]

Semitic is a purely linguistic term, perhaps this wasn't the case in the bronze age, but it is the case today. Lebanese and Ethiopians don't belong to the same ethnicity just because both populations speak a Semitic language.

semits were an ethnic group that invaded the southern Levant from Africa 5600 year ago, they were E-M34

Arabs are J1-P58 lived in southern Levant at the time and were the first non-ethnic Semites to adopt Semitic language

I don't agree with the details on this map :

After the invasion, 5600 years ago E-M34 went along the Levant northward and further down into Mesopotamia : the Akkadians, Elabites, Amorites etc.

4300 years ago, the J1-P58 Arabs who had adopted Semitic language started to spread into Arabia

 

[bicicleur 2]

Proof? Proof? What we know is that Aryans invaded India from BMAC (Oxus civilization) located in South Central Asia. It’s a proven fact that the homeland of the Aryans that invaded India was Arayana or Airyana Vaeja. Airyana Vaeja was a very mountainous region. After testing the DNA we ofund out that there’s lots of West Asian auDNA and Y-DNA in that area. There’s lots of West Asia Y-DNA, like J2a and R1a-Z93. With other words folks that lived in Aryana were of West Asian origin. Culturally speaking, Sintashta (Andronovo) culture was very different form BMAC (Oxus civilization). While BMAC (Oxus civilization) was very close to the Leyla-Tepe (civilization around Zagros and Western Iranian Plateau).

Andronovo had all the right elements : copper & bronze metallurgy, cattle herding, horses and chariots

Pre-BMAC people were farmes from Jétun civilization, 8000 years old.
They found precious stones and gold in the mountains and started trading with the Elamites
BMAC cities and citadels were build by Elamite people who toke the precious stones and gold resources.
BMAC cities and citadels were burned and destroyed, it looks like BMAC was invaded and replaced by Andronovo people
then from there Andronovo people spread further : south, they attacked Elam, west they founded Mitani (attested indo-european language) and also corss the Hindu Kush and Khyber pas into India

 

[Alan]

Silesian, you're missing my point entirely: Akkadian in northern Mesopotamia is beyond any doubt older than any presence of Indo-European speakers, by the fact alone that Akkadian is the third-oldest attested language of the world, and the oldest attested Semitic language.


And we've discussed this before, a common word "alcoholic beverage" is reconstructable for Proto-Indo-European, but its not the word "wine" (the root is *medhu-), its meaning was certainly not "wine" either. Its fairly obvious that in many branches of Indo-European (Insular Celtic, Germanic, Baltic and Slavic), the word is just borrowed from Latin. In my opinion, the Mediterranean branches of Indo-European (Italic and Greek, poss. Hittite too) likely borrowed that word from a Central Semitic source, and not vice versa.

Apparently it isn't

When the Akkadians moved into Mesopotamia they first and foremost settled in Southern and Central parts of it, merging with and later replacing the Sumerians. Just with time they conquered and settled in Northern Mesopotamia which by than was settled by Subarians, Urartians and Hurrians and a significant populations of Scythians, Cimmerians and Hittites as seen from recent archeological findings in Iraqi Kurdistan.

Even by their biggest expansion Akkadians never reached most of the northern parts of Mesopotamia. It was only with their descends, the Assyrians who later conquered the Mitanni and other Empires. And we know from archeological findings that they did overlay on the Indo European cultures in North Mesopotami.

Thirteen stone stelae, of a type similar to those of the Eurasian steppes, were found in 1998 in their original location at the centre of Hakkâri, a city in the south eastern corner of Turkey, and are now on display in the Van Museum. The stelae were carved on upright flagstone-like slabs measuring between 0.7 m to 3.10 m in height. The stones contain only one cut surface, upon which human figures have been chiseled. The theme of each stele reveals the fore view of an upper human body. Eleven of the stelae depict naked warriors with daggers, spears, and axes-masculine symbols of war. They always hold a drinking vessel made of skin in both hands. Two stelae contain female figures without arms. The earliest of these stelae are in the style of bas relief while the latest ones are in a linear style. They date from the 15th to the 11th century BC and may represent the rulers of the kingdom of Hubushkia, perhaps derived from a Eurasian steppe culture that had infiltrated into the Near East

The perhaps part is just a speculation which I don't buy since these Stelea are at least (if not older) than those found in the Steppes. But still possibility exists that they came from the Steppes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_stelae

Thats 3500 years ago, before any Semites had yet reached North Mesopotamia

 

[Silesian]

Silesian, you're missing my point entirely: Akkadian in northern Mesopotamia is beyond any doubt older than any presence of Indo-European speakers, by the fact alone that Akkadian is the third-oldest attested language of the world, and the oldest attested Semitic language.


And we've discussed this before, a common word "alcoholic beverage" is reconstructable for Proto-Indo-European, but its not the word "wine" (the root is *medhu-), its meaning was certainly not "wine" either. Its fairly obvious that in many branches of Indo-European (Insular Celtic, Germanic, Baltic and Slavic), the word is just borrowed from Latin. In my opinion, the Mediterranean branches of Indo-European (Italic and Greek, poss. Hittite too) likely borrowed that word from a Central Semitic source, and not vice versa.

Do you agree that the word for wine can be reconstructed in PIE> if so how is it possible the Proto-Indo-Europeans borrow grape/wine from the oldest attested Semitic language when they themselves do not have a word for in Akkadian? Did the oldest attested IE language[the first to have broken away from PIE] have laws governing orchards?
https://books.google.ca/books?id=G_...6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=hittites vineyards&f=false
Is it possible the Akadians did not have a word for wine/grapes because the region they lived in did not have any grapes? Is it possible they made alcoholic beverages from Dates just like modern day Assyrians?
Alone, each category does not say very much, however combined we can see PIE; did Hittites and or other Indo-European people deal in grapes and honey? Which region has the oldest Kurgans and the greatest variance grapes and honey. Which region has a history of the oldest wine making in the world?
So my question; where can the oldest dated honey found, the oldest mead found,the oldest wine found? Among Semitic speaking regions? Or closer to the oldest dated Kurgans?

 

[Aaron1981]

I personally think it's very unlikely, given that both R1a and R1b showed up in Europe nearly 5000 years ago - they would have had to travel quite quickly once they crossed the Caucasus in order to get that far north and west that quickly. As for the linguists, there was a sea beside Maykop and near Yamnaya - it's called the Black Sea.

? This is in and around the metal ages. This is exactly the time of upheaval from, I can only assume the east, since the western folks match hunter gatherer and/or farmer individuals from the 50+ skeletons that have been tested so far.

This is exactly it...they moved quickly from the east on wheeled vehicles and hopped over adjacent cultures in Ukraine from a homeland deeper in Russia. It sounds absurd, but this is what the aDNA evidence is showing.