R1b and Native Americans

[LeBrok]

There was no R1b in North or South America before the white man. The latest studies that have real YDNA and autosomal profiles from Anzick and possibly others (I don't recall all the details as it didn't interest me much) show the profile of the ancient people to be nearly identical to the modern ones when you strip away the European admixture.

It appears there was a bottleneck, likely in the difficult times crossing the strait and they all descend from Q1a3-L54 men. There may be a small bit of diversity here but the likelihood of being something other than Q or C is very low as these were prominent lineages in and around Chuchki peninsula. Bottom line - NO R.

Agh, how come you strip European admixture to determine that there was no mixing with Viking and their R1b?! You know Vikings were Europeans...

 

[Twilight]

An African slave who died at Saint Martin between 1660

In order for the Vikings to be present in Precolumbian American dna, haplogroup I and R1a have to be present as well as R1b but celtic irish sounds interesting .

 

[LeBrok]

An African slave who died at Saint Martin between 1660

In order for the Vikings to be present in Precolumbian American dna, haplogroup I and R1a have to be present as well as R1b but celtic irish sounds interesting .

Yes, but what if it was only one or two guys who married native girls, and happened to be R1b?
If at the end the native R1 turns to be Viking R1b, it would mean that R1b is very virulent indeed. Not only in Western Europe but also in North America.

 

[Twilight]

Yes, but what if it was only one or two guys who married native girls, and happened to be R1b?
If at the end the native R1 turns to be Viking R1b, it would mean that R1b is very virulent indeed. Not only in Western Europe but also in North America.

Possible, I suppose if the R1 is Viking than the dna would have conservatively come from Vinland; the Vikings who stayed behind not to mention Mr.Gnupson' s silence after the voyage to North America.
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Vinland#Later_Norse_voyages

Perhaps a genetic pattern could be teased out by 23andme to see if the dna is from Scandinavia and/or his slaves.

The strange thing also is there is a uncanny resemblance to the Algic language families and the Canadian province of Nunavut.

Compare these map link

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe..._R_(Y-DNA).PNG/800px-Haplogroup_R_(Y-DNA).PNG
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algonquian_languages#/media/File:Algonquian_langs.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...in_Canada.svg/250px-Nunavut_in_Canada.svg.png
http://www.cogsci.indiana.edu/farg/rehling/nativeAm/continent.gif

According to Wikipedia; source below, Nunavut had quite a few Viking contacts prior to Leif Erickson's settlement in Vinland.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Nunavut

UPDATE:
According to ancestrydna, Native Americans; (I'm assuming those with documents stating that they are 100% Native American) tend to be at a genetic range of between 100%-85% NA Dna; at least those tested by Ancestrydna.

 

[Twilight]

Could have been from Vikings, that's 1,000 years ago. Long enough for R1b to spread around.

I suppose that's possible but again I'm puzzled as to why that would only happened with R1b and not the other relevant "European" type haplotypes, which do appear in significant numbers in tribes known to have considerable European admixture, such as the Eastern Algonquin.

According to Ancestrydna, 8% of Native Americans were Iberian(Latin American?), 4% Great Britian (Brythoic/Celtiberian?) and 2% Italy/Greece(Greco-Roman/Latin American?)

that being said, I highly doubt that actual Scandinavian Vikings, Slavs or Germanic tribes ever intermingled with Precolumbian Americans; however, I still can not rule out the possibility of Vikings relinquishing their slaves;of Romanized British origin and the Romanized Britians intermingling with Native Americans.

I also doubt that European DNA crossed the Bering land ridge with the other Native Americans because the East Europeans (Slavs) are not mentioned in the "Region % of natives that have this region"

 

[RobertColumbia]

I once had a co-worker who described himself as Micmac. When I first saw him I thought he was white. He had a French last name. I heard one of the Senior managers ask him: “Are you French?” And he said, no, he was Native Canadian Micmac. He had slightly darker skin than most white people. To me, it looked like he could have passed as either white or Native Canadian. A very nice fellow....

IME, many people of partial-Native ancestry (with the rest being white) could pass in many areas of the US (and, I suspect Canada as well) as Greek or Sicilian as long as they stayed away from areas with a large amount of actual Greek or Sicilian presence (e.g. New York City, most of New Jersey).

 

[Salmon]

Ancient Eurasians crossed the Atlantic on canoes?

or

Modern researchers are not taking into account the possibility that many natives mixed with early European settlers in the NorthEast.

 

[geoiii]

soultrean hypothesis does not explain presence of r1b. 20,000 BC r1b was still only in central asia, did not reach western europe until bronze age. it would have been theoretically possible that bronze age r1b humans made it to north america around 1000 BC, but they would have brought bronze age tech with them and when columbus discovered new world he would have found bronze age civ. the soultrean culture from france was supposedly haplogroup X and Clovis were supposedly Q like all native americans with no R not to mention any R1b.

 

[kevingnet]

Some of the other tribes that have elevated levels of R1b are in northwestern Canada and in some cases are Dene. Plus, there are apparently high rates of R1b among the Dene who migrated into the southern U.S. about 400 years ago (the Navaho and Apache). Of course, there are other tribes in eastern and central North America that have significant amounts of R1b but they also have significant amounts of other "European" Y haplotypes and a history of heavy intermarriage with whites, so I wouldn't make too much of the R1b in those tribes - examples are MicMac, Quebec Cree and Cherokee. But it is odd that at least one Dene tribe has about 40% R1b and apparently no other "European" haplotypes and that the Ojibwe, which historical records would suggest have less admixture than some tribes, have nearly 80% R1b and only about 3% other "European" R1b. So the distribution might suggest that some group of Siberian R1b types, perhaps distant descendants of Mal"ta Boy's relatives, migrated across the Bering Straits after the initial peopling of the Americas and that some of them eventually settled around the Great Lakes, where there was copper to be had. Except that in order for that theory to work, the R1b should consist of unique subclades, and I'm not aware of anyone finding any so far.

At this point, I'd still be inclined to consider the possibility of sampling issues. If you look up the original studies, the number of samples is fairly small, and I don't know what the selection criteria were.

Yes...but...80%?!
Isn't that a bit high to explain simple intermarriage? Not saying it was or wasn't, just that the data is suspici0us.

 

[kevingnet]

I think there are some R1b in Nepal.

I think that's my uncle. He likes to travel a lot, and he said the other day, he likes girls from Nepal.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Yes...but...80%?!
Isn't that a bit high to explain simple intermarriage? Not saying it was or wasn't, just that the data is suspici0us.

the Ojibwe were traders and allies of the French colonisers near the rapids between Upper Lake and Lake Huron
they were the first to acquire firearms which explains their rapid expansion
appearantly before the expansion lot of their Y-DNA was switched into R1b

 

[firetown]

Some Micmac can pass as looking European because they're mostly European. They live on the east coast and, from what I've seen, they're far more admixed than, for example, the Ojibwe, who some studies say have close to 25% X2. And the Beothuk are long since extinct. After reading the Origins of the British, I wouldn't put too much stock in any conclusion reached by Oppenheimer, but maybe that's just me.

Show me some evidence please, because my network of rhesus negative people has a few "micmacs", many blood type A negative.

 

[Rethel]

..................................................

 

[airwalk12]

The only reason Native Americans have R1b is because of Admixture from colonization. Many people who say they are 100% Native American are not so genetically, especially in the US....most tribes are admixed. Have you not noticed a lot of people who say they are Native American look european?

I believe this is one reason NA tribes in the US do not want to take DNA tests because it will show a lot of admixture with European DNA

 

[Angela]

The only reason Native Americans have R1b is because of Admixture from colonization. Many people who say they are 100% Native American are not so genetically, especially in the US....most tribes are admixed. Have you not noticed a lot of people who say they are Native American look european?

I believe this is one reason NA tribes in the US do not want to take DNA tests because it will show a lot of admixture with European DNA

That's very true, in my experience, especially for east coast and upper midwest tribes, like the ones around the Great Lakes. The Cherokee were very admixed even before they were forced out west. Some of the eastern tribes also have some SSA.

I've wondered if perhaps the admixture saved some people from the European diseases.

 

[Promenade]

Why is it such a mystery where R1b originated in Native Americans? Couldn't you just look at the subclades of R1b they have? If it were more recent from the colonial, viking era, etc. you would think there would be other european haplogroups and not just R1b.

 

[Megalophias]

They do have other European haplogroups. Most of the studies have not had high enough resolution, but such as have been tested are almost all R1b-M269.

For instance Hammer's 2005 pooled sample of US Native Americans (n=396) has 22% R1b-M269 and a single (0.3%) R1b-P25(xM269), as well as 5% I, 3% E, 2% R1a, 1% J, and singles of G and N, the rest being C and Q.

You can find unexpectedly high levels in some groups, some odd haplotypes in old studies, etc, but so far no distinct Amerindian subclades have actually been identified, if they exist.

 

[LeBrok]

They do have other European haplogroups. Most of the studies have not had high enough resolution, but such as have been tested are almost all R1b-M269.

For instance Hammer's 2005 pooled sample of US Native Americans (n=396) has 22% R1b-M269 and a single (0.3%) R1b-P25(xM269), as well as 5% I, 3% E, 2% R1a, 1% J, and singles of G and N, the rest being C and Q.

You can find unexpectedly high levels in some groups, some odd haplotypes in old studies, etc, but so far no distinct Amerindian subclades have actually been identified, if they exist.

Pretty much says it all. Now I'm very interested if any of these were seeded by Vikings around 1,000 CE.

 

[Ermotimos]

It could be from Greeks, and specifically from Heracleidians - Dorians. There is a passage from the 1st century Greek writer Plutarch, from his book "Concerning the Face Which Appears in the Orb of the Moon" in which he describes the presence of Greeks in Canada (St Lawrence bay area) and Greenland and other islands. They are described as having a presence there from way before the time of Heracles, who went there and revived the Greek spark for they are described as already having turned native. Why would they have had a presence there? Plutarch describes them as very spiritual and devoted particularly to Heracles and Saturn to whom they devoted a sacred journey. The whole way is an image of what the poets called the golden age, a time when Saturn reigned. Which would correspond to a way of life of the period before and including the neolithic, I think this is the answer to the mystery of the old copper complex. How else can one explain the appearance of copper technology in the old copper complex at the time it did, right after it was discovered in the old world. Keep in mind that, as far as we know and in Europe at least, the oldest copper is from the Balkans. That's where copper started. And the Aegean peoples had a probably advanced seamanship in the Mesolithic, obsidian from the island of Melos was traded all over the Aegean and beyond, which indicates an advanced trading network. So here's the passage from Plutarch. I calculated and measured all the distances he provides, on google map, they are all exact. The geography of north america he describes is correct. penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Moralia/The_Face_in_the_Moon*/D.html

 

[Ermotimos]

Υou could reach Greenland from Britain in five days with a fast enough ship. Even with dugout canoes like the Polynesians. The distance of Ogygia (Greenland) from the mainland coast is 5000 stadia. That is 900 kilometers (one Athenian stadio is 180 meters), which is the distance of Greenland to the Canadian mainland and he says the sea is difficult to traverse because of what he considers alluvial deposits from the rivers, but it is specified that it was congealed, so he is probably talking about sea ice, which he or they believed was created by the muddynes of the continental rivers. The three other islands are some of the ones in Nunavut. This is indicated further by the arctic twilight conditions specified. The gulf which is the size of (not smaller than) the Maeotis lake (Azov sea) and on the same latitude as the mouth of the Caspian sea is the St Lawrence Bay (they haven't translated this part correctly in this link, the original text mentions latitude apart from size, it reads "whose mouth (the gulfs) is in line with the mouth of the Caspian". The estuaries of the Volga and the St Lawrence river are probably the "mouths" of the two).
Through the St Lawrence river they would have had naval access to the isle Royal copper mines, as the lakes were probably much bigger in the deep past after the ice age melt down and probably connected into one great lake.
But they could have also have used the rivers that connect the lakes. Today you can canoe this distance. They did use the rivers all over Europe. Rivers were the highways