R1b and Native Americans

It's not. See post #77 of this thread.

Regarding Ojibwe specifically though it's around 3/4, with basically no signs of any other Eurasian Y DNA. Can't be Viking without I1, R1a etc. And Celtic is unlikely to me, but possible I suppose. Someone should just check their SNPs, as I said. It would be easy.
 
Source please?

Well it's on this map (all that R is R1b), and everyone refers to a 79% figure online, but I can't find the source (mainly because I don't have time) - it's probably true though, you can look it up I guess

HgR-Map.jpg


Compare to this:

Old+Copper+Culture+Copper+Culture+artifacts+were+mined+in+limited+area%2C+Keweenaw+Peninsula+in+modern+Michigan..jpg
 
Here's another interesting thing (though I doubt it's related to this R1b migration I'm proposing) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calabash#Origin_and_dispersal

The mystery of the bottle gourd —– namely that this African or Eurasian species was being grown in the Americas over 8,000 years ago[12] —– comes from the difficulty in understanding how it arrived in the Americas. The bottle gourd was originally thought to have drifted across the Atlantic Ocean from Africa to North and South America (laughable idea), but genetic research on archeological samples published by the National Academy of Sciences in December 2005 suggested that it may have been domesticated earlier than food crops and livestock and, like dogs, was brought into the New World at the end of the ice age by the native Paleo-Indians (too early, probably later East Asians, or maybe even something related to Dene-Yeniseian). This study showed that gourds in American archaeological finds appeared to be closer to Asian variants than to African ones.[4]


 
As for Solutrean - I'm not sure. Despite the Anzick sample I'm inclined to believe in it: I REALLY hate the idea of independent inventions.

Clovis toolmaking technology appears in the archaeological record in much of North America between 12,800 and 13,500 years ago. Older blades with this attribute have yet to be discovered from sites in either Asia or Alaska.[4]


Haplogroup X2 is by far the most frequent and widespread subclade. Its basal branches (including X2f) are largely restricted to the Near East, the Caucasus, and northern Africa, but the main subclade of X2, defined by a transition at position 225 in HVS-II, includes Near Eastern, north-African, and European-specific subclades, as well as the X2a subclade, famously restricted to Native Americans. The root of X2+225 is probably the major founder sequence for dispersals involving haplogroup X, and its age of ∼21 ka offers an upper bound for the time of these dispersals.45 A curious feature of the tree is the possible connection of X2a to the north-African clade X2j through a mutation at position 12,397. However, this mutation might be a recurrence; X2j appears to be extremely recent. The rare X2g, also found only in Native Americans, indicates that the spread from the Near East toward the Americas could have begun as early as the emergence of the X2+225 clade, given that this could have been the only founder sequence.

Definitely not R1b even if true though
 
I'm at a loss for words.
 
Lol my bad g i cant read
Fuhgeddaboudit :)
(forget about it)
It’s about: Comprehension.
It doesn’t apply in this case, or to you (maybe):
If it makes you feel better, on average I Google 1 word out of 30 when I read academic intensive papers in English.

Nobody talks like that.

Sometimes I get the impression that they do it on purpose, they use technical words even when it's not necessary. Snobs.

So many unnecessary arguments are caused by the lack of understanding of these documents, Especially for those struggling in English. Goggle Translate Included.

imo I speak Italian (obviously) and English better than Google Translate. lol
 
Last edited:
Honestly, I find it quite ridiculous that anybody would still adhere to the LGM Cantabrian refuge origin hypothesis for R1b, because its totally against all the evidence that we do have. The oldest sample of R1b in Europe is from the Kromsdorf site, from circa 2600 to 2500 BC, and there hasn't been a single evidence of R1b from the multitude of Neolithic sites. Indeed, we shouldn't expect one, because the "tree" of R1b suggests that its oldest subclades were located decisively outside of western Europe.

I think its fairly obvious that this Native American R1b must be of more recent European origin.

What do you think of this now in light of the Villabruna R1b?
 
Pretty much says it all. Now I'm very interested if any of these were seeded by Vikings around 1,000 CE.

R-A5846 at yfull would be a candidate, significant changes seem to have been done between these two norwegian samples from the "correct part of Norway".
With sample age estimates that is prior to Norwegian stoneage, bot and ship building at around 2400 BCE, which would be as such that it would be expected to be found among "coastal saami".
Where mixing with eskimoes from perhaps before they left behind finnish obcession with reindeer? as it involves this saamidna dot com where there are many mysteries concerning Greenland viking-integration, new foundland and what not. but A5846 autosomal testing may answer this for deeper studies, as it is perhaps as easy with confirmation bias about Vikings taking women everywhere and in Brittain.

Came here for more information to satisfy curiosity. And if it at all is possible that lunatic Eskimo's and Saami kidnapped people to take with them to North America.

I had least complained a lot when I found that at least both of the samples from Norway had negative S552 SNP, and now it is official, it no longer defines R-L21, so negative for this may have such an implication. Need more data and what not, but grandfather of William the Conqueror is supposed to, or maybe was, from the same region of Norway. But given the numbers involved, there are limits to what is reasonably imagineable and possible. Where I thought it was known, and had been proven that Saami managed to get across the North Pole with Reindeer to Canada, and there are many mysteries about Q furthest North. Looking at some US samples, with age estimates of 3500 years. "sea culture" reached the furthest parts 3000 years ago in Alta, so "possible" and quite a range that should be covered.

Furthermore, there seem to be three samples for R-BY11863, where one guy not "Pederson" found on ytree dot net. All from the same region known to be connected to Orkney etc.
As this seem to be a marker, where there are known connections to early Iceland and New Foundland as well, that A5846 may be a marker due to at least majority migration to Norway across the ice from Denmark nearer to the timeframe of Doggerland. With connections to central maritime activity, and stone carvings of ships in Alta Finnmark, and associated indigenous similarities with minority and fringe theories of migration back and forth long before Leif Eriksson. Positive A5846 and BY11863 among native americans opens many questions for vastly different theories, with very little genetic testing in Norway often pestered about this or the other, BY11863 is found in York and dated 500 BCE.

With likely time window about 3000 years for, pun intended, towing a ship across the ice like santa clause. Bringing back the Saami Lavvu, that is the closest to the Tipi tent where all variants in Europe are thought derived from the Lavvu.
 
Last edited:
There seem to me, to be far too many similarities between "Lappland" and Ojibwe for it to be purely accidental.

Furthermore, assuming this R-M269 mess is due to Doggerland dispersing.
I do not know if there are set rules that involve ethnicity for haplogroups, but it is a recent bottleneck.
Considering these deep subclades as such may be improve upon use of STR, where this seem to be a special mechanism that may be contigent.

At the very least, A5846 and branches can be Nór associated for Norse Saga's for peculiarities of the best adapted, whether new or old needed activity.
That between Norwegian forced necessity of living off marine life and corporation with Reindeer herders.
Ojibew of Native Americans seem to mirror also these adapations and corporative neighboring relations.

That I am dying to know autosomal hits on A5846 and BY11863 among Native Americans.

So for discoslure, my paternal line is easily documented to Nordfjordeid right next to where Myklebust ship was built; barring NPE events.
And maternal line in late 1600 in Steinshamn for V15a2 in Møre and Romsdal, the latter being suspected to be primary MtDNA following R1b from Eurasia.

Irregardless of where the details may steer, and dices fall, for Native Americans, Alta in Finnmark and Lofoten is such a fishery and indigenous activity that come with a minimal level of cultural familiarity. As this certainly involve First Nation Scandinavia and perhaps Europe, and offer an overlap and explanation of compatibility from a needs basis.
 
Last edited:
There are many reasons to discuss founder effects, and why that is steering principle in evaluation. And certainly in provider dependencies, for adapation to food and activity; that a Soviet level nightmare is needed to significantly break from it. Or a larger geographical and natural events to advance it, as it is not possible across generations otherwise.

In addition, from the associations presented, included Hersir/Herser/heresy/here-i-see as a title predating Jarl in the North Atlantic with all the appropriate translations and Norse contributions to English.
And regions of Norway that built ships, that when they lost, the Viking-raids began with its contrast to mono-theism as a person resistance, and rejection at Library of Alexandria and Athenasius the Confessor. That A5846 and BY11863 certainly is neutral from this perspective from a Norwegian perspective and modern interpretation involving Trinity. Just to add that on the top of this hyperbolic treatrise desiring a thesis.

As there may be something here, for current state of diplomacy in Scandinavia where younger Natives where drummed up in climate conferences.
But relations in the Northern hemisphere involves the threats of the last Tzar of Russia about involving the Saami---something he never did.
Extension of this is Lappland and Finland, where the latter has kept independence throughout modern history, and were revered and feared by sentiments that may be shared against Norway.
Currently, Finland will not join NATO without Sweden, being on rather intimidating arctic grounds. Where North Saami according to saamidna dot com is a new ethnic group, probably 2000 years old.

That diplomacy have a tendency to involve adaptations suffient for trade, and cultures that allow relations from standing exchanges.
From all intents and purposes, Ojibew and Nór not having a connection, the corrolorary is that there exist one in spite of precepts; especially having a hold over Russia.

Derailment only help the details questioned, but it may very well be such, that the closer to 70 indingeous groups from Lappland to Alaska.
Having a vote over Russians, that trace their origins from Kiev may very well be involved.
Those that actually trace their way to the Atlantic, and those that are probable to be descendant of those going North and Down as one may put it.
Whether true or not, if contemporary relations are so and so, and the connections are plasuble and cultural communication venues plausible.

It is quite easy, from my place, to promote Ojibew as a group with a legitimate vote above Sweden, Finland and Russia.
 
Last edited:
Not because there are contacts involved, but by Ojibew being curous about this question, visiting and taking part in Northern Scandinavia; it will be adhered to.

As it should not inolve much further ado for the Arctic Council, where it would be out of place, for half a millenia genealogy for me to be involved and academia and science outside of personal relations and the undocumented.

Influence apprantly doesn't require stamps and approval.

And for Hell-Sinki-I it may matter in the Atlantic that they did.

By and large, this may be the fact of the matter for Finnland and current events.
Whom is the Black Dragon of Asia and the Arctic Daemon? Probably wasn't the Vikings.

But it also explains quite a lot, for why the North Atlantic and Finnland is protective of Finnmark.

 
Last edited:
But, there is certainly many undiscovered groups in R-L21.

And in american databases, searching for hg38 positions, at sites like varsome or gnomad broadinstitute browsers.
This is SNP L21, Y-13542548-C-G,
S552, Y-4751726-C-A,
A5846, Y-14927647-G-A.

And you generally need to find an SNP that is of medical relevance, and not merely genealogical.
While medical databases with few samples, and as little as 15 000 controls and 60k in total is close to meaningsless.
In this case however, it does allow a hypothesis, where no generally accepted thesis is written.
About more than accidental relationships between Saami culture and Indigenous Americas.
Certainly, if the resonable explanation for the N haplogroup among Saami, and minority fishing activity and R1b.
Assuming that there wasn't a genocide or a patricide, that normalcy is boring litterature and journalism.
Where no such nightmares are reasonable explanations for the broader populations.
Those that carved images of ships in stone in Alta 3000 years ago, and Reindeer herders, or Eskimoes, Canoe and Pulk could have made it a cross.
And there could be a pre-European history migration event that is burried and hidden in recent history.
L21 being so common in general, there would need be many hits among native americans for that explanation, especially among Northern Natives.

According to Icelandic Saga's, they are a bit more southern and slightly less southern, i.e Sunnfjord, rather than Nordfjord (south, north), which may have different clades.
Sample sizes for relevant smaller populations is abyssmal. But these tidbits, allow looking at things like the Petty Kingdom's of Norway and find Thórgard and Freygard in Orkneying sagas and if there is anything tangible to it.
 
Anyways, lots of posts, fair bit of ranting.

But I hope for tribes like Ojibwe, that one actually struggle to find TMRCA with people living in Europe, that haven't moved back over the Atlantic; for the last 1000 years without poor coverage.

At the very least, with the few public in the A5846 tree, where mine is off by 292, and should be older; and know unless an NPE is involved.
There is a French/English, and an American, and a Norwegian branched tree seperated by 3500 ybp.
It should be practically impossible for a native indian tribe to have 50-70% R1b from recent European migration, lastly, they would need to compete with others having adapted to the life over thousands of years. Reindeer and tundra Saami believe there was a large genocide, possibly comitted by them at minimum 2000 years ago, and evidence point to coastal Saami living more out of fish kept the culture intact. And across the Atlantic, one speculates about mass rapes or population replacement that may or may not threaten a way of life or a people? As thinking the worst, and not wanting to challenge the precept is most common behaviour along with confirmation bias to propell it.
 
very interesting thread.
trying to learn about me.. this forum has been great.
I rarely speak. 8th post in 2 years.
my y700 and mtdna full was completed almost 3 years ago.

my mom is v19, came back labelled as Saami. LOL. My paternal is L238. Some very famous vikings.
my closest grave is iceland 850CE. TSG-A1 I believe. I am in with the small group of ph1220 subclade
itnarrowed the grave down even further.
I am believed to be ofthe irish seafering monks. county cork, limerick area was the launching. I am my basque name,. first found in 400AD written.

the twist? I am all irish..and mom is very scottish. She was was traced to egypt , with a very long stay in iberia.

just like dad. Not a saami.
I have no subclade matches at mytrueancestry.
I also reply, as I am part mik mak. I did see the aged report of some r1b-m269 being native american.
I seem to keep it going, as my lower teeth and jaw matched a native american grave. (I have very unique lower teeth)

adding famous irish monks as fathers of very pride filled vikings and seafarers with proven graves and Y testing is only making more wonder.
I am paused in time like these threads....
I hope science figures it out.
another tidbit. I am of 100% irish. no norse history in any way shape or form. No autosomal links or ancient graves. Just Y graves.
so we got a father..and he is from basque/spain/etruscan.
it is as far as the testing got thus far.

I rule out nothing. I have already gone through some of the mistakes and back out again.
Science stays open like this. it has been 5 years since my dna adventures began.
one last bit.. my Y dna is gapped 500-800 years to nearest relative..I chatted with the man that I was grouped with. we have no links.
I will not make the mistake of testing alone again.. but I did help some science theories anyway. I have two nephews, two brothers, living father and some distant 3rd great grandpa offspring. No NPE. No other relatives.
my dad was sent home form the viet nam draft in 1969 for being a "soul surviving son"

the gov knew what it was doing after all.
 

This thread has been viewed 89590 times.

Back
Top