R1b DF27 in Iberia

Big Y 700 complete. FTDNA's results displayed today:

R1b > M269 > L23 > L51 > P310 > L151 > P312 > DF27 > ZZ12 > ZZ19 > Z31644 > BY2285 > BY25634 > FGC35133

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https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...e-Native-American-ethnicities-but-mtDNA-is-B2

Interesting. It looks like I'm a unique case in the R1b-DF27 "Y"subclade and the FTDNA Project DF27 admins will create a new subclade below the FGC35133 that will include me and also include a man from Spain (this new subclade will be the R1b-Y54249):

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Interesting also that my terminal mtDNA sequenced and confirmed (not predicted, but confirmed) by FTDNA (mtDNA Full Sequence) is B2, the same rating I received on the Y-Full mitochondrial Haplotree (about 17,000 ybp). Neither FTDNA nor Y-Full getting to put me in an existing mitochondrial subclade below B2. In this case my terminal mitochondrial haplogroup is the same as the founding populations of America that were in Asia and also in a glacial refuge in Beringia (between Siberia and Alaska):

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When it comes of the sequencing of the haplogroups "Y" and "mt", I'm a very special case. LOL. :)
 
^^

Congratulations!!! I could finally find out that I had received it, they must be working hard on it. I'm alone with a hollander.
 
^^

Congratulations!!! I could finally find out that I had received it, they must be working hard on it. I'm alone with a hollander.

^^ Thank you very much dear friend Carlos. We are both alone with a strange man in a “block” of the “Y” haplotree. LOL. At least the guy that stay with me speaks Spanish and I understand and speak Spanish. The guy that stay with you speaks Dutch. I don't know if this would be a problem to you, but I would have a hard time communicating in Dutch if he doesn't speak anything of English. LOL. I hope they will continue to work hard to get our haplotree position as accurate as possible. A big hug dear Carlos. :)


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^^ Thank you very much dear friend Carlos. We are both alone with a strange man in a “block” of the “Y” haplotree. LOL. At least the guy that stay with me speaks Spanish and I understand and speak Spanish. The guy that stay with you speaks Dutch. I don't know if this would be a problem to you, but I would have a hard time communicating in Dutch if he doesn't speak anything of English. LOL. I hope they will continue to work hard to get our haplotree position as accurate as possible. A big hug dear Carlos. :)


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I don't know who it can be, I don't even know his name. We travel in the same car, it's just him and me. He wears a hat that covers his face, he still hasn't raised his head since I entered the car, I only see the reflection of my face in the glass when we pass through a tunnel. The train has not stopped at any station, just then I realize that I do not know the destination of that trip, then the Dutchman raises his head and I can see his face under the wide-brimmed hat, then the train enters another tunnel .
 
I don't know who it can be, I don't even know his name. We travel in the same car, it's just him and me. He wears a hat that covers his face, he still hasn't raised his head since I entered the car, I only see the reflection of my face in the glass when we pass through a tunnel. The train has not stopped at any station, just then I realize that I do not know the destination of that trip, then the Dutchman raises his head and I can see his face under the wide-brimmed hat, then the train enters another tunnel .


You are a poet. Beautiful and well crafted words. Congratulations. Your words refer me to a magnificent images of an European art film. :)



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You are a poet. Beautiful and well crafted words. Congratulations. Your words refer me to a magnificent images of an European art film. :)

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Thank you. In this ruthless world, romanticism should be recovered; although we live trapped in these last centuries that must be the most tasteless in the history of mankind because having everything goes away time and life without having done enough. Look how the world is hating each other, conflicts everywhere, it seems that they do not direct us humans.


In another order of things, what have you found out about your new nomenclature?
 
Thank you. In this ruthless world, romanticism should be recovered; although we live trapped in these last centuries that must be the most tasteless in the history of mankind because having everything goes away time and life without having done enough. Look how the world is hating each other, conflicts everywhere, it seems that they do not direct us humans.


In another order of things, what have you found out about your new nomenclature?

I still don't know much. My data is still being processed on Y-Full. For now Y-Full has provisionally provided me (I received an email now) with a subclade identical to that of FTDNA. I'll wait for the processing to finish to know who will be with me on Y-Full “Y” Haplotree and what will be the definitive nomeclature of my subclade there.



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In both, Big Y and Yfull, I form a terminal clade of haplogroup R1b-DF27 with a Cordoba Spanish: R-FGC35133.


According to a message sent by the FTDNA Project Administrator DF27, in a few days he would reposition me, putting us together in a new subclade: R-Y54249. See message below:


"Duarte,

Project R DF27 and Subclades. R1b-DF27 Subclades Project: DF27+ ZZ12+ Z195+ Z198+ Z209+

Congrats on the new results. I've taken a quick peek at your private mutations and one of the males who was already on the FGC35133 branch. You and he match with at least one private mutation, meaning that you and he will form a NEW downstream branch:

BY25634>FGC35133>Y54249

(I will get you moved in the next few days)

This male is only sitting at Y500 and would likely share some more private mutations with you found in the new Y700 region. In fact, you appear to be the ONLY male in this entire branch of the DF27 tree with new Y700 results compared to the older version."


However, this has not been done to date by the FTDNA, but Yfull has already advanced the FTDNA and has grouped us into a new subclade containing the SNP FGC35133: R-Y45921 (Y45921 * Y53021 * Y54249 Y55210 * Y56488 * Y111390 * FGC35133).


It is a young clade, that appears to have emerged at 680 BCE (TMRCA 2700 ybp)


Below are illustrative images:

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Hello I have not posted on this site in awhile my apologies! I am R1b1a1a2a1a2 R-P312 subclade of R-M269. My question is if Z195 which I have tested positive for is a subclade of DF27, but it does not show on my FTDNA as being tested for how can you have a subclade of something that is not there??? I have tested negative for DF103, DF110, DF17, DF19, DF21, DF41, DF49, DF63, DF81, DF88, DF95, and DF99. It looks like I skipped DF27 and went right to Z195> SRY2627 (M167). I read an article published in Aug 2017 that says that Z195 seem to have appeared simultaneously within DF27. Confused a need a better understanding of how all this ties together. Thanks
 
Hello I have not posted on this site in awhile my apologies! I am R1b1a1a2a1a2 R-P312 subclade of R-M269. My question is if Z195 which I have tested positive for is a subclade of DF27, but it does not show on my FTDNA as being tested for how can you have a subclade of something that is not there??? I have tested negative for DF103, DF110, DF17, DF19, DF21, DF41, DF49, DF63, DF81, DF88, DF95, and DF99. It looks like I skipped DF27 and went right to Z195> SRY2627 (M167). I read an article published in Aug 2017 that says that Z195 seem to have appeared simultaneously within DF27. Confused a need a better understanding of how all this ties together. Thanks

Hello Frank,

I don't know if you did the FTDNA yDNA Big Y 700 test or if you did the tests in separate packages to test each SNP individually. If you did the Big Y 700, and the SNP DF27 has not been tested, it is because they assumed that you are DF27 +, since the test was positive for the SNPs Z195+ and M167+, that is downstream of DF27 +. Remember that the results of the Big Y 700 are time consuming because before the results are released, they are rigorously analyzed by a team of genealogists. Only the SNP detection process is automated. The rest is done manually by a team of genealogists. I suggest that you join the FTDNA Project R-DF27 and Subclades and direct this question to the Project Administrator, Lucas McCaw, who is very diligent and respectful: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r1b-df27/activity-feed

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Cheers :)
 
I think FTDNA surname projects are really cool. But for me, unfortunately, it doesn't work very well. These are some of my matches with distance 0 (zero).

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My True Ancestry R-DF27 Royal matches

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In that 2017 nature article entitled "Analysis of the R1b-DF27 haplogroup shows that a large fraction of IberianY-chromosome lineages originated recently in situ", the authors affirm that NE Iberia is the most likely place of origin of DF27 but perhaps new studies have updated this result. Can you clarify this question? Thank you.
 
40% of Spanish and Portuguese men descend from a common ancestor of 4,500 years ago

This study has been based on the DNA of almost 3,000 men from the Iberian Peninsula and France.

A single chromosome, the Y, makes men men. And that, from the evolutionary point of view, facilitates the analysis of the different variants, their origin, their geographical distribution and even their movements throughout history. Well, taking advantage of this fact, a group of researchers has analyzed a specific variant, R1b-DF27 of the Y chromosome, very abundant in the peninsula, to better understand our population evolution.


By analyzing the DNA of almost 3,000 men from the Iberian Peninsula and France , the scientific team made up of researchers from the Institut de Biologia Evolutiva (IBE, UPF-CSIC), a joint center of the Pompeu Fabra University (UPF) and the CSIC, and of the University of the Basque Country (UPV / EHUS) has verified that this variant is present in 40% of Iberian men and up to 70% of men in the Basque Country. However, after the Pyrenees, only 10% of men carry the R1b-DF27 variant of the Y chromosome.


As Francesc Calafell, study leader and professor at the Department of Experimental and Health Sciences at Pompeu Fabra University explains, “ the evolutionary history of human Y chromosomes appears to have occurred in bursts , with increases in the frequency of certain variants a root of cultural changes or technological innovations ”.


In the case of the R1b-DF27 variant, the authors assure that it originated between 4,000 and 4,500 years ago, and it most likely appeared in the northeast of the peninsula.. "Despite its current high frequency in the Basque Country, internal measures of diversity and estimates of seniority are lower in Basques than in any other population, which rules out this region as the point of origin of the variant", Calafell comments. A local origin in Iberia would be the most plausible hypothesis, since "it shows the highest estimates of diversity and age for R1b-DF27." These observations appear to coincide with the east-west movement that occurred in Iberia in the Bronze Age, when non-Indo-European Iberian peoples settled on the Mediterranean coast and inland because Celtic peoples occupied the center and west of the Iberian Peninsula.

Thanks to the study of the R1b-DF27, migrations can be traced throughout history carried out by Spanish or Portuguese men. An example of this are the Latin American populations, where the variant is found at frequencies of 40% in Colombia, 36% in Puerto Rico, 10% in Mexico and 8% in Peru. In fact, the presence of this chromosome is much lower in populations with a stronger indigenous component, such as Mexico and Peru, indicating less mixing of their individuals with settlers in the past .


Even in Europe, the frequencies of the Y subgroups have been used to detect short-term migration events. Thus, the traces of the expansion of the kingdom of Aragon towards the Mediterranean during the 14th and 15th centuries, or the Castilian occupation of Flanders in the 16th century can be traced through the male lineages, in particular, through R1b-DF27 .


Furthermore, the study of this chromosomal variant may have applications in forensic genetics. Their presence in a biological sample collected at a crime scene can help identify the geographic origin of the potential criminal.

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Frequencies of the DF27 variant in Iberian and European populations


https://www.nationalgeographic.com.es/ciencia/actualidad/40-los-varones-espanoles-portugueses-desciende-antepasado-comun-hace-4500-anos_11921
 
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I highly doubt that only 10% of Mexicans are R1b-DF27. Assuming that the nationwide percentages for Spain were transplanted to the colonies without accounting for regional differences, this would mean that only ~25% of Mexican Y lineages are of Spanish origin (the 10% of R1b-DF27 being 40% of all spanish lineages there), which doesn't sound accurate.

Do we have any information on where the samples were taken? That figure would make sense for an indigenous community, not for the mainstream mestizo population.
 
I highly doubt that only 10% of Mexicans are R1b-DF27. Assuming that the nationwide percentages for Spain were transplanted to the colonies without accounting for regional differences, this would mean that only ~25% of Mexican Y lineages are of Spanish origin (the 10% of R1b-DF27 being 40% of all spanish lineages there), which doesn't sound accurate.

Do we have any information on where the samples were taken? That figure would make sense for an indigenous community, not for the mainstream mestizo population.

Table 1 - R1b-DF27 frequencies in the analyzed samples of population.

PopulationNR1b-DF27 frequency (%)
Colombia6035.00
Panamá5332.08
Nicaragua16532.73
El Salvador2927.59
Guatemala4429.55
Mexicoa329.38
Puerto Ricoa5433.33
Colombiaa4337.21

‘a’ refers to population extracted from 1000 Genomes Project [[10]].


Source:

The impact of haplogroup R1b-DF27 in Hispanic admixed populations from Latin America

https://www.fsigeneticssup.com/article/S1875-1768(19)30237-9/fulltext
 
I highly doubt that only 10% of Mexicans are R1b-DF27. Assuming that the nationwide percentages for Spain were transplanted to the colonies without accounting for regional differences, this would mean that only ~25% of Mexican Y lineages are of Spanish origin (the 10% of R1b-DF27 being 40% of all spanish lineages there), which doesn't sound accurate.
.

That’s a naive assumption to make. Why would you find it logical to assume that national percentages in Iberia would be identically reflected in Latin America? There are so many variables you’re failing to consider that I don’t even know where to begin.

For starters, we know that the Americas absorbed disproportionate numbers of various Iberia’s minority populations (e.g. Conversos, Moriscos). We also know that the vast majority of conquistadores, colonists, etc. came from the poorer and more southern regions of Spain (e.g. Extremadura). Those two factors alone could easily account for major discrepancies in the relative distribution of such markers.
 
New twist on DF27

Now that some time has passed and the methodologies for Y-DNA analysis have become more advanced and commonplace, we need to revisit the idea of the origin on R1B-DF27.

The old analysis from the 2017 paper used basic SNP testing and STRs - very rudimentary tactics compared to the BigY and Yfull sequences available now.

Using the Yfull tree there is an interesting phenomenon that appears when examining the DF27 sub branches. The DF27 in Britain did NOT come from Iberia and the DF27 in Iberia did NOT come from Britain. There is essentially zero downstream SNP overlap between the two countries. This means that the migrations into Britain and Iberia of the originating source of DF27 happened at the same time from the same source.

France seems most likely, as there are also some independent sub branches in Italy that aren't downstream of either Iberia or Britain. This also means that the original geographic genesis location of DF27 probably experienced Y-DNA replacement.

The explanation for the high numbers of DF27 in Iberia are due to the founder effect and the now well-known Y-DNA genocide of the Iberian peninsula. The other expansion zones for DF27 (Britain/Italy) did not wipe out the inhabitants and create a founder effect.

Relevant photos of Yfull branches show simultaneous branching without either the British or Iberian being the originating source, but rather a bifurcation approx 3800 years ago:

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(continuing)
 
(continued)

Apparently I'm now exceeding my quota for attachments......to be continued but the next three screenshots would have been more of the same, branches present in Iberia and Britain that bifurcated about 3700-3800 years ago with no overlap.

Hopefully this will bring about some discussion on the old celtic or celtiberian migrations of the bronze age. Keep in mind that DNA testing companies often assign some British testers a few percentage points of Basque - probably due to ancient similarities.

Edit: Also revisit the original maps in this thread to see the presence of DF27 in Britain especially.
 
(continued)

Apparently I'm now exceeding my quota for attachments......to be continued but the next three screenshots would have been more of the same, branches present in Iberia and Britain that bifurcated about 3700-3800 years ago with no overlap.

Hopefully this will bring about some discussion on the old celtic or celtiberian migrations of the bronze age. Keep in mind that DNA testing companies often assign some British testers a few percentage points of Basque - probably due to ancient similarities.

Edit: Also revisit the original maps in this thread to see the presence of DF27 in Britain especially.


What a bunch of nonsense, you should dedicate yourself to studying your paternal lineage, and not trying to guess our origin. The first df27 are in Iberia and the south of France,
 
What a bunch of nonsense, you should dedicate yourself to studying your paternal lineage, and not trying to guess our origin. The first df27 are in Iberia and the south of France,

Perhaps some support rather than nonsense would be warranted by you. Offer something or keep quiet. Iberia is clearly not the origination of DF27 based on the YSNP tree. Southern France would be consistent.
 

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