R1b-L51/PF7589

Mainlanders have been moving into Corsica, Sardinia, and from Corsica into Sardinia for a long time.

Teresa is correct that there's more of it in the North, probably as a result of it filtering down from Corsica.

I don't know that there's any justification at all for saying it was all Romans. It's not as if Romans made any folk migration there.

I think all the population genetics studies that talk about the fact that the Sardinians are a good proxy for the Neolithic farming populations of Europe don't emphasize enough that this is based on the genetic sample picked by Luigi Cavalli-Sforza from the isolated inland plateau around Ogliasatra.

The more accessible regions of Sardegna, including the north, have some ancestry from other places.

See: Chiang et al
"Population history of the Sardinian people inferred from whole-genome sequencing"
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2016/12/07/092148.full.pdf
 
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Angela said:
Mainlanders have been moving into Corsica, Sardinia, and from Corsica into Sardinia for a long time.

Teresa is correct that there's more of it in the North, probably as a result of it filtering down from Corsica.

I don't know that there's any justification at all for saying it was all Romans. It's not as if Romans made any folk migration there.

I think all the population genetics studies that talk about the fact that the Sardinians are a good proxy for the Neolithic farming populations of Europe don't emphasize enough that this is based on the genetic sample picked by Luigi Cavalli-Sforza from the isolated inland plateau around Ogliasatra.

The more accessible regions of Sardegna, including the north, have some ancestry from other places.

See: Chiang et al
"Population history of the Sardinian people inferred from whole-genome sequencing"
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2016/12/07/092148.full.pdf
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Oh wow i thought they were all 100 percent European farmer, this is completely new to me
 
Carbo said:
R-PF7590 is currently found only in Italy: mine in Apulia (Taranto) and in Sardinia with Freancalacci. It is possible that R-PF7590 was born in Italy
It may have been brought to Apulia by the Romans with the deduction of the NEPTUNIA colony in 123 BC and Brundisium 247 or 244 BC. therefore of Italic origin and probably of LATIN ethnic group.
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R-PF7589 ->PF7590 that it came with the LATIN/ITALIC Indo-European migrations during the Bronze Age.
 
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From what we know so far it seems that R-L51-PF7589 was born and expanded from Italy:
R-L51 L51/M412/S167/PF6536 * PF6535 * CTS10373/PF6537/FGC39+2 SNPs5600 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 65005200 ybp" class="age" formed 6300 ybp, TMRCA 5800 ybp
id:ERS257000 ITA [IT-CA]
 
Sorry, by FTDNA I found that my DNA is R1b-L51/PF7589, so it want means that my family belonges to ancient roman families? But even if it were true I think it will be difficult to verify fully considering that in ancient times the Romans used to cremate their deceased unlike other populations who used the inhumation, making it even more difficult to compare DNA belonging to Roman deceased.
 
The haplogroup R - PF7589 should have been born in Central Europe according to some theories and for the Italian branch should have fallen in Italy as I wrote in another post with the migrations of the Italic populations then the Latin falisci and then Umbrian-osci in the period of bronze or according to the theory of the Italian shelter of the professor Gioiello Tognoni was born in Italy and we spread throughout Western Europe. Recently it was found in Italy in Villabruna a R1b dating back to 11,000 years ago that should give scientific validity to this theory
 
Carbo said:
The haplogroup R - PF7589 should have been born in Central Europe according to some theories and for the Italian branch should have fallen in Italy as I wrote in another post with the migrations of the Italic populations then the Latin falisci and then Umbrian-osci in the period of bronze or according to the theory of the Italian shelter of the professor Gioiello Tognoni was born in Italy and we spread throughout Western Europe. Recently it was found in Italy in Villabruna a R1b dating back to 11,000 years ago that should give scientific validity to this theory
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Thank you very much for answer!
I don't know so well the antique populations history of central Italy, so I know that the three principal population in Rome were Latin, Sabine and Etruscan; than all this populations can be originate from this haplogroup, or only the Latins?
 
RomanDNA said:
Thank you very much for answer!
I don't know so well the antique populations history of central Italy, so I know that the three principal population in Rome were Latin, Sabine and Etruscan; than all this populations can be originate from this haplogroup, or only the Latins?
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Latins and Sabines were of Indo-European origin. therefore it is probable that R-PF7589 has been present between Sabines and Latins
 
RomanDna, what is your country of origin in Italy?
 
Carbo said:
RomanDna, what is your country of origin in Italy?
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The most recent origins (secc. XVII-XX) would say between Lazio and Abruzzo, but more detailed research would show that my family lived in Rome as early as the fourteenth century; even if only this certainly would not prove the ancient Romanity of our origins. Thanks
 
RomanDNA said:
The most recent origins (secc. XVII-XX) would say between Lazio and Abruzzo, but more detailed research would show that my family lived in Rome as early as the fourteenth century; even if only this certainly would not prove the ancient Romanity of our origins. Thanks
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We can reasonably assume that my R-L51 / PF7589 ---> PF7590 is a candidate for a typically Italic haplogroup and therefore also Latin ... and therefore ancient Roman
 
Carbo said:
the oldest R-PF7589/ CTS6889- have diffused in Tuscany (Italy)...

***Hypothesis spread Italian *** L51/CTS6889+ with an expansion from Italy to Central Europe? ( Ancient Roman DNA ? )

It seems to me that these data are the demonstration of all theories, of the "Rifugio Italiano" (?)(Gioiello Tognoni) .
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While Gioiello rightfully points out how Italy has all the R1b ancestral to other European R1b , I think he misses the bigger picture of what's happening: There were two expansions of Indoeuropean into Europe from the Shulaveri-Shomu PIE homeland, the one north that brought CHG into the Steppe together with R1a-M417 and R1b-Z2103 (Satem), and one west that brought CHG together with R1b-L23(Carrying all the important subclades Gioiello likes to point out) and J2 (Centum) to the local EEF populations in southeast Europe, Mycenaean Greeks and Bell Beaker Italy descend from the Indoeuropeans who expanded west not the CHG-EHG mixed people from the Steppe.
 
Saetrus said:
While Gioiello rightfully points out how Italy has all the R1b ancestral to other European R1b , I think he misses the bigger picture of what's happening: There were two expansions of Indoeuropean into Europe from the Shulaveri-Shomu PIE homeland, the one north that brought CHG into the Steppe together with R1a-M417 and R1b-Z2103 (Satem), and one west that brought CHG together with R1b-L23(Carrying all the important subclades Gioiello likes to point out) and J2 (Centum) to the local EEF populations in southeast Europe, Mycenaean Greeks and Bell Beaker Italy descend from the Indoeuropeans who expanded west not the CHG-EHG mixed people from the Steppe.
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The J2b2-L283 found from bronze age Croatia had 1/3 Steppe ancestry though. So did the woman buried next to him.

We're you just referring to J2b1?
 
Ownstyler said:
The J2b2-L283 found from bronze age Croatia had 1/3 Steppe ancestry though. So did the woman buried next to him.

We're you just referring to J2b1?
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Steppe people were about half EHG half CHG-rich IE, I guess you can claim any Indoeuropean population is whatever percentage "Steppe" based on their shared CHG-rich IE heritage, you need some formal statistics to prove from which specific population that shared heritage came from. Anyway it's clear both Indoeuropean waves meet and mix in central Europe.
 
RomanDNA we have opened an in-depth Facebook group. Search on FB R1b-L51 / PF7589 +

RomanDNA abbiamo aperto un gruppo Facebook di approfondimento . Cerca su FB R1b-L51/PF7589+
 
It would howeve interesting to able to perform DNA tests werevr possible on human remains found in ancient burials in and around Rome to verify the lates theories on te origin ofthe original populations of the city and on the oldest "gentes orginariae".
 
The key and oldest subclades survived so far clades and R-L51-PF7589 are older in Italy than everywhere.
 
RomanDNA said:
The most recent origins (secc. XVII-XX) would say between Lazio and Abruzzo, but more detailed research would show that my family lived in Rome as early as the fourteenth century; even if only this certainly would not prove the ancient Romanity of our origins. Thanks
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RomanDNA did you test R-PF7590?
 
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