R1b-U152/S28 : more Gaulish or Roman ?

Who spead R-U152 ?

  • The (Proto-)Italo-Celts

    Votes: 34 28.6%
  • The Hallstatt/La Tène Celts

    Votes: 31 26.1%
  • Italic people, including the Romans

    Votes: 15 12.6%
  • Hallstatt/La Tène Celts AND Italic people

    Votes: 26 21.8%
  • Earlier Neolithic or Mesolithic people

    Votes: 4 3.4%
  • Other (please specify)

    Votes: 9 7.6%

  • Total voters
    119
Ich can say you why in corsica and sardinia were so much R1b-U152. Because when corsica would a part of france, many french people come to corsica.

The demography of the native-corsican is very bad, so the genes of the french (with most R1b-U152) are dominant of corsica. Its fact.
A friend of my parents is a real corsican (with french ancestors) and his wife a austrian. So many corsican with french ancestors, live on corsica.
The statistics about the haplogroup distribution are from the new-time.
So do you understand what i want so say?

How exact it is on sardinia, i dont know. But i think we must include modern migrations, because all the haplogroup statistics, dont exclude this migrations f.e. since the 18. century.

it is false all the way!!! lets be serious
the mixture in Corsica was very light before the 1950s
+ the more MALE THE MORE corsican! look at their names: COLONNA/ROSSI/ANDRIETTI/ANOTINI/ORSATTI/VESVOCALI/ACQUAVIVA/PASQUALETTI... no end!!! more than 90% italian patronymics!
the U152 in Corsica could be the result of a drift from post-Bell-Beakers and from people carried there at the time of the GENOVA kindom domination -
yet, lets be serious!!!
I agree enough with TARANIS as a whole - just: Austria receives surely some Germanics of the invasions (U106) and saw a lot of movements E>W, W>E - and I repeat that according to someones (HUBERT) East-Hallstatt was different from West-Hallstatt (I'm not competant to judhe here)
for northern cultures around Denmark North Germany I suppose that the most of the Y-R1b was U106 and downstream...
 
it is false all the way!!! lets be serious
the mixture in Corsica was very light before the 1950s
+ the more MALE THE MORE corsican! look at their names: COLONNA/ROSSI/ANDRIETTI/ANOTINI/ORSATTI/VESVOCALI/ACQUAVIVA/PASQUALETTI... no end!!! more than 90% italian patronymics!
the U152 in Corsica could be the result of a drift from post-Bell-Beakers and from people carried there at the time of the GENOVA kindom domination -
yet, lets be serious!!!
I agree enough with TARANIS as a whole - just: Austria receives surely some Germanics of the invasions (U106) and saw a lot of movements E>W, W>E - and I repeat that according to someones (HUBERT) East-Hallstatt was different from West-Hallstatt (I'm not competant to judhe here)
for northern cultures around Denmark North Germany I suppose that the most of the Y-R1b was U106 and downstream...

names , surnames!!?
colonna from aragonese
andretti, pasquletti from lombardia
orsatti, from umbria
antonini vesvocali can be tuscan or roman
rossi, is ligurian

what does it matter,
Napoleon Bonapart was italian from Corsica with a surname of Bonaparte, his father's name was Luciano ( Lucien in french) .

What are you trying to say?
 
names , surnames!!?
colonna from aragonese
andretti, pasquletti from lombardia
orsatti, from umbria
antonini vesvocali can be tuscan or roman
rossi, is ligurian

what does it matter,
Napoleon Bonapart was italian from Corsica with a surname of Bonaparte, his father's name was Luciano ( Lucien in french) .

What are you trying to say?

what I say is for people that try to understand!
1- I was answering to your affirmation of a majoritary FRENCH male pole in Corsica, that is not serious (the studies about Corsicans was made by foreign scientists, not frenchmen, and so I think the samples was made with inrooted Corsicans and not freshly arrived continental Frenchmen -
2- I have studied the question of family rnames (in english: 'surnames') and can tell you that A NAME IS NOT ALWAYS A ONE PLACE ORIGIN THING: a lot of common words served to built names - the majority of corsican surnames has been forged by italian speakers according to general rules common in Italy as a whole, because italian language was the language of this island for a very long time, since the roman empire I think (latin evolved into neo-latin and after that into italian dialects- - only some names have a very located origin or dialectal form: it is true for italian names as for french names and even breton names: saying Colonna is from there, Luciani is from this precise place is a nonsense as saying that Dupont or Martin or Lefèbvre is from that precise place - the only surnames that indicate precise place of origin are the ones which have evident dialectal forms (North Italy: Meneghin, Del Pin, Faggin... / Sardigna: Puddu by instance) or are towns/places/ethnic names (Padovani, Lombardo, etc...)
3- Telling me all these supposed italian local origins (even if I know some of your indications could be valid for a few of these surnames) undermines your non serious affirmation of a heavy impact of french males on the genetic making of true Corsicans (I am Breton, so I don't feel too concerned by some complex) - you can read yourself if you forgot...
4- Corsican old population (they are living yet...) show phenotypes different as a whole from the continental French population (high dolichocephaly, different distribution of dark hairs hues, different distribution of brown hues, high presence of very dark eyes hues...etc... DIFFERENT ENOUGH TOO FROM THE BASIC CENTER ITALIAN POPULATION - crossings occurred but they were not so important and did not erase some peaculiar traits of Corsicans
5- even if put among the italian toscan dialects, corsican dialect shows phonetic tendencies closer to the sardignan dialects (more yet in southern corsican) plus some southern France influences in north corsican -
and I have always put more consideration into phonetics than into lexicals...;
6- eveyibody (or almost) in France knows that Napoleon was a BUonaparte and that is family was not ancient in Corsica - all the way, Corsica was bought little before by France to Italy but this point is very futile in the present matter

have a good night
 
3- Telling me all these supposed italian local origins (even if I know some of your indications could be valid for a few of these surnames) undermines your non serious affirmation of a heavy impact of french males on the genetic making of true Corsicans (I am Breton, so I don't feel too concerned by some complex) - you can read yourself if you forgot...

I'm sorry ZANIPOLO!
it is not you but THEODISK that affirmed male pole of Corsicans was heavily influenced by french fathers...
so...
I hold on for my other affirmations as a whole (for COLONNA I confess I don't know, maybe it is from Catalan origin, this fact doesn't destroy the global evidence of my answer concerning family names of Corsica

do not be offensed
buona notte
 
North-western Iberia was part of the La Tène culture, but only has a low percentage of U152.
Excuse me, but the Celts of Culture La Ten did not reach to Iberia. Celts of Iberia belong to the first wave, Era Hallstatt.
 
Crucianietal2010Table-1.jpg


It can be worth having a look.
 
View attachment 5771


It can be worth having a look.

thanks, but what is the conclusion? (and I prefer the SNP naming to the old system)
perhaps xould you compare what appears to be R-U152 France versus Corsica? (France have very different menas according to provinces) - it is just a male mediated %, that surely precedes the family names hereditary transmission - but your amiable post is so mysterious?
 
In my opinion, u-152 is indeed a marker of the la tene culture brought to Italy via France and Switzerland. Many reliable historical sources, such as Livy , speak of many invasions of the italian peninsula from French Gauls. Livy for one, states that Bellovesus, king of the bituriges cubi, rounded up more than 300,000 men from various different tribes across France ( bituriges cubi hailed from central France) and brought them across the alps to Italy. He brought men from the arverni, ambarri, aedui, senones, lingones, carnutes, aulerci/cenomani and his own bituriges cubi tribe(s). (Check map of Gauls people on Wikipedia to see in what regions of France these tribes where originally centred at.) you can also see on many maps of ancient Italy and on Wikipedia maps of celts the senones both in France ( near Belgium) and the same tribe in the Marche region of Italy. The italian Cenomani can be traced to the cenomani of western France. The Emilia-romana lingones can be traced to north eastern France near Belgian and German border, etc. it is said that when these men arrived in northern Italy in the modern Lonbardy region, they encountered another group of men that called the self the Insubres. Upon realizing that Insubres was also the name of a canton/district in the homeland of his fellow Aedui tribesmen that ventured to Italy with him, he decided to keep that areas name as Insubria. He then proceeded to found mediolanum, modern day Milan, within the limits of Insubria, and he did so happily and peacefully while melting in his 300,000 men with these similar Celtic men. Livy also speaks of brennus's sack of Rome which took place a few hundred years earlier, so we already know that la teen Gauls where making their way far into the italian peninsula long before. Thus these attacking Gauls where waging war on men that, 1000 years earlier they would have called their own blood brothers. The Roman Empire was built by men that shared the same looks and genetic markers as these invaders, separated by a few hundred/thousand years. It is thus my strong conviction that the Latins where Gauls that arrived in Italy long before their cousin invaders and got separated/lost from them with time....and when they met up again, they no longer knew who they where due to relative isolation, nor had the knowledge of genetics to realize they where one and the same. Maybe 800 or a few thousand years before brennus's and his Gauls, a similar troop of men, cousins or genetic brothers to Gauls, left their la tene origin point near the Meuse/Loire/Moselle rivers in northeast France at an early point, crossed the alps, made their way over time to Rome, and set up a competing empire. This makes sense because the overwhelming majority of Italians are U-152. Why? Maybe because the Gaulish people's where very high concentration and only had u-152 when they came over in their small sample size. So the massive success and population growth that happened in Italy spawned from a few men, after generations, became MANY men all with u-152 subclade as was found in their bottleneckec small group of ancestors, all across north-central Italy, cisalpine Gaul, the so-called "Germanic" settlement areas, or more like Gaul/French settlement areas. The only inconsistency in my theory is that P312 ( the Iberian S-116) is found in high concentrations in Spain, Portugal, AND France, but at very low concentrations In Italy. If the Gauls did go from France to Italy, wouldn't italy also have traces of the Iberian/ west French S-116 lineage? Maybe not, if the s-116 migrated to France at a later time, after the departure of many U-152, a movement to fill in the "vacuum" hole of the massive U-152 departure. Needless to say, u-152 is still found in 15-20% of all areas of France and at a significantly higher frequency in Switzerland and north Italy.... Maybe this is why Cesar was always allied with lingones and aedui and Belgian remi against all the other Gaulish tribes, maybe in the end they where all the same thing!
 
what I say is for people that try to understand!
- the only surnames that indicate precise place of origin are the ones which have evident dialectal forms (North Italy: Meneghin, Del Pin, Faggin... / Sardigna: Puddu by instance) or are towns/places/ethnic names (Padovani, Lombardo, etc...)

The dialectual forms of surnames is apparent in Italy , by this method
Italian is a dialect of the italian regional language and they are a dialect of latin ...known as vulgar Latin.

Surnames in Veneto in friuli are historically like this.
In Veneto ...endings in IN is the original form with endings in ER next . In friuli its the opposite.
In Venice proper the original surname endings in IGO

Then there is the surname change used at the time of the Venetian Republic due to the system of only the first son getting all the family wealth, other sons surnames ( ONE METHOD ) where changed to indicate their body ( once they left the home)
large frame/height endings in OTTO
medium frame/height endings in OTTI
small frames/height endings in ONI

There where other methods, all due to heridary constraints.
Under ITALY from 1866....many had ( forced ) to add a vowel, usually the Tuscan I or the northern O.
In regards to corsica, they would have used and I or E ending due to Genoese influence and the Sardinians usually have endings in U
 
R1b-U152/S28 : more Gaulish or Roman ?


R1b-U152/S28 is the dominant Y-DNA hp of all the Italics people: Umbrians, Latins, Sabins, Samminetes...
 
R1b-U152/S28 is the dominant Y-DNA hp of all the Italics people: Umbrians, Latins, Sabins, Samminetes...

If the Samnites were mostly R1b-U152 why does modern Benevento in the old Samnite heartland have only 5.5pc of U-152 according to the 2013 Boattini study and Aquila on the eastern edge of Sabine country only 13pc?

Foligno in Umbria has rather more, at 24.5pc, but that is still far from a majority of R1b-U152.
 
if the Samnites were mostly R1b-U152 why does modern Benevento in the old Samnite heartland have only 5.5pc of U-152 according to the 2013 Boattini study and Aquila on the eastern edge of Sabine country only 13pc?

Foligno in Umbria has rather more, at 24.5pc, but that is still far from a majority of R1b-U152.

Due to Roman Empire (people from all parts of the Empire went to Italy and viceversa), to medieval internal and external migrations, and to the neolithic farmers non-indoeuropeans absorbed by the Italic people. Italian pensinsula, after the fall of Roman Empire, underwent a process of depopulation.

There is also an historical episode in particular, according to which the Ligurians of Garfagnana (Southern Liguria-Northern Tuscany) were deported-brought in Samnium (Avellino and Benevento area) around 180 BC, and the Samnites were deported in Garfagnana (not very sure of the last part).
 
Due to Roman Empire (people from all parts of the Empire went to Italy and viceversa), to medieval internal and external migrations, and to the neolithic farmers non-indoeuropeans absorbed by the Italic people. Italian pensinsula, after the fall of Roman Empire, underwent a process of depopulation.

QUOTE]

All conjecture..where is your evidence?

The relative lack of U-152 in modern Aquila, Campobasso and Benevento may only reflect the fact that R1b-U152 was NEVER prevalent hereabouts.
 
@Vallicanus

This is the Biasutti map on Percentage of blonds in Italy. Very high percentage in Benevento area.



 
All conjecture..where is your evidence?

The relative lack of U-152 in modern Aquila, Campobasso and Benevento may only reflect the fact that R1b-U152 was NEVER prevalent hereabouts.

Evidence? A good book about Italian History.

All jokes aside, next days I will try to find a more convincing evidences. Anyway, I think it's hard to think that a genetics photography of a modern country like Italy with a very complex history may actually reflect the perfect distribution of ancient peoples lived 3000 years before.
 
Due to Roman Empire (people from all parts of the Empire went to Italy and viceversa), to medieval internal and external migrations, and to the neolithic farmers non-indoeuropeans absorbed by the Italic people. Italian pensinsula, after the fall of Roman Empire, underwent a process of depopulation.

There is also an historical episode in particular, according to which the Ligurians of Garfagnana (Southern Liguria-Northern Tuscany) were deported-brought in Samnium (Avellino and Benevento area) around 180 BC, and the Samnites were deported in Garfagnana (not very sure of the last part).

Correct,

Given the high G2a in Southern Italy also the high E-V13 one might well conclude a substantial Neolithic pressence that was absorbed by the Indo-European Italics [Bruttii and Samnites];


The fact that regions like Calabria still have 15.5% U-152 -Bruttii and
Molise
8% with the Abruzzo region 13% -Samnites -of course also a lot were killed in the 3 wars

is a significant remnant of the Indo-European Italics [Umbrian/Ambronen];
And this is just exclusively U-152;

Given what was before [G2a] and what all came contemporary from the East Mediterranean with Pelasgians and Greeks, i would have expected much lower;

in total S Italy = 8.6% U-152 and 16.2 G2a and 10.6% E-V13 and 17.1% J2 -Boattini et al 2013

all in all paints a very accurate picture;
 
What has that to do with R1b-U152?

Uniparental markers do not directly affect phenotype; only autosomal DNA does that.

Boattini has 11pc of male lineages which may be Germanic rather than Italic.

However Benevento was a major Lombard/Longobard duchy for 5 centuries and its relative blondism may be due to that strain but again only an autosomal study can confirm the facts.
 

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