R1b-U152/S28 : more Gaulish or Roman ?

[American Idiot]

It seems that south-central English in General have more Germanic lineages whereas the Irish and scots (particularly and by far more the Irish) belong to Italo-Celtic S116 lineages.

southern England also had the highest concentration of Gaullish and Gallo-Belgic Celtic lineages.

 

[American Idiot]

http://www.ancestorcentral.com/archives/821

As per the conference yesterday, it was announced that

U152 Originated in Central Germany ...................seems like prior to Germanic people in the north

U106 Originated in East Germany ............southern East Germany, next to Czech

Z195 Originated in Central France ..............seems like Dijon area

P312 originated in Hungary ..................old Pannonian area

L21 originated in Kent England ............

M222 originated in Ireland

L11 originated in Bulgaria

P311 originated in Romania

M269 Originated in Western Anatolia

R1b-L21 didnt originate within the British Isles.

 

[adamo]

False. R-S28 peaks in the entire British islands at 15% in southern England; if another 35% are L21 that makes 45% for Italo-Celtic lineages whereas Portuguese and Spanish belong 85%+ to basically almost all basal R1b-P312*. Irish have about as much-Italo Celtic lineages as Iberia ,and Italy must have about 50%; France I would say around 75%. As for England's genetic composition, I believe the original celts of the island (Scottish,Picts) to have been R-L21 whereas the later invading angles,Jutes and Saxons brought a slew of Germanic lineages (I1, R-S21 predominantly though) via holland and/or Denmark. There was also attested minor Viking presence which could explain some of the I1.

 

[American Idiot]

False. R-S28 peaks in the entire British islands at 15% in southern England; if another 35% are L21 that makes 45% for Italo-Celtic lineages whereas Portuguese and Spanish belong 85%+ to basically almost all basal R1b-P312*. Irish have about as much-Italo Celtic lineages as Iberia ,and Italy must have about 50%; France I would say around 75%. As for England's genetic composition, I believe the original celts of the island (Scottish,Picts) to have been R-L21 whereas the later invading angles,Jutes and Saxons brought a slew of Germanic lineages (I1, R-S21 predominantly though) via holland and/or Denmark. There was also attested minor Viking presence which could explain some of the I1.

I agree with what you are saying..... so what is false?

my statement was that alot of the Gaullish and Belgic Celts brought in R1b-S28 to the Isles. Since, as you said, R1b-S28 peaks in southern England, that would make sense.

R1b-L21 did not actually originate in the Isles, as it is found in France,Germany, Iberia, etc.. at varying degrees. So, unless British Celts migrated throughout the Continent, there is no reason to assume R1b-L21 actually originated in the Isles itself. It was the lineage of the earliest, bronze age Celtic peoples to come into Western Europe and brought to the Isles at a very early date which is why it's the pre-dominant marker of Atlantic Celts.

And I completely agree with what you say about the genes brought in to the Isles by Anglo-Saxons and Vikings.

 

[American Idiot]

U-152 would turn into L-21 near England and finally M222 by the time we reach Ireland. Clades of R-S28 would travel from France to he Iberian peninsula.

U152 (R1b-S28) never turned into R1b-L21. P116 turned into R1b-L21. It also turned into U152 (R1b-S28).
P116 is the parent clade of both R1b-L21 and of U152

 

[Nobody1]

U152 in the south of England corresponds perfectly with the Gallic tribes from Belgae (Caesar V/XII) that occupied especially the maritime areas; Strange is only that U152 was not also pushed west like L21 by the Germanic and U106 but remained in its location;

 

[American Idiot]

U152 in the south of England corresponds perfectly with the Gallic tribes from Belgae (Caesar V/XII) that occupied especially the maritime areas; Strange is only that U152 was not also pushed west like L21 by the Germanic and U106 but remained in its location;

I dont think R1b-L21 was pushed west by incoming Saxons. Yeah, on a small level, it was probably pushed west, but the majority of R1b-L21 found in the western areas of Britain were already in that part of the Isles long before the Germanic migration to Britain, IMO.

R1b-L21 covered all the Isles before the Saxons came. It is still found in the eastern part, though at much lower frequency and in the central part of England too, which shows there was mixing between the 2 groups and no one was "pushed west" in any large scale migration.
The native Celts of those areas were merely subjugated, as well as being killed in the earliest part of the Germanic migration to Britain.

There have been artifacts such as spearheads found in the Thames valley that show Saxons of that area of England had native Celtic metal smiths working for them as they continued their expansion.The artifacts show influences from both Saxon and Celtic smiths.
So, the Celts of that area were not wiped out or pushed west, but adapted to the new pecking order.

 

[adamo]

Not "a lot" of them brought over R-S28, primordialy just a few tribes such as the Belgae who were a Belgic tribe well attested of having crossed the English Channel to southern England. In all, there is a 15% U-152 maximum in southern England. R-L21 is not really "found" in those regions (not above 5-10% anyways) it truly is a clade dedicated primarily with its highest concentrations in the British isles. They are zeroing in on an origin area somewhere in/near the England portion of the United Kingdom. It's downstream M-222 clade DID originate on Ireland. It probably was NOT the earliest Atlantic Bronze Age lineage as in my opinion this title goes to R-P312*. Thank you for stating the obvious in your next post.

 

[Nobody1]

I dont think R1b-L21 was pushed west by incoming Saxons. Yeah, on a small level, it was probably pushed west, but the majority of R1b-L21 found in the western areas of Britain were already in that part of the Isles long before the Germanic migration to Britain, IMO.

R1b-L21 covered all the Isles before the Saxons came. It is still found in the eastern part, though at much lower frequency and in the central part of England too, which shows there was mixing between the 2 groups and no one was "pushed west" in any large scale migration.
The native Celts of those areas were merely subjugated, as well as being killed in the earliest part of the Germanic migration to Britain.

There have been artifacts such as spearheads found in the Thames valley that show Saxons of that area of England had native Celtic metal smiths working for them as they continued their expansion.The artifacts show influences from both Saxon and Celtic smiths.
So, the Celts of that area were not wiped out or pushed west, but adapted to the new pecking order.

i think some of them even fled to Armorica
hence its called Brittany now;

 

[American Idiot]

Not "a lot" of them brought over R-S28, primordialy just a few tribes such as the Belgae who were a Belgic tribe well attested of having crossed the English Channel to southern England. In all, there is a 15% U-152 maximum in southern England. R-L21 is not really "found" in those regions (not above 5-10% anyways) it truly is a clade dedicated primarily with its highest concentrations in the British isles. They are zeroing in on an origin area somewhere in/near the England portion of the United Kingdom. It's downstream M-222 clade DID originate on Ireland. It probably was NOT the earliest Atlantic Bronze Age lineage as in my opinion this title goes to R-P312*. Thank you for stating the obvious in your next post.

you're an idiot. R1b-L21 is found from the British Isles to France(not just western France/Brittany) and even some in Germany and Iberia.It didnt originate in the Isles, it was brought there by early Celts. Have you ever seen an actual map of the spread of R1b-L21? if it originated in Britain how did it get to be so widespread on the European continent? yes of course its highest concentration is in the Isles, but it's found, in low frequency, all throughout western europe.

as for R1b-S28, since many of the Gallo-Belgic, Hallstatt era, and La Tene Celts came from Gaul then yes, alot of those peoples would have carried R1b-S28 into Britain since it's still found in France, & Central Europe today at fairly high levels.

I never said R-M222 didn't originate in Ireland, so thanks for misreading my earlier post.

And when you say "They" are zeroing in on England for a point of origin for R1b-L21, who are "they" exactly?
every thing I have ever seen or read shows most experts claim it separated from R-P312 on the continent in the early Bronze age, then was carried by Atlantic Bronze age Celtic ancestors to France, Iberia, British Isles, Western Europe. And finally, over time, it left it's highest concentration in the British Isles for obvious reasons.

I guess you're entitled to your opinions, even if they are obviously wrong. Have a good day.

 

[adamo]

R-L21 is found in 5-10% of German, Spanish men (even less for Portuguese).France has above 40% in the Brittany region but most of the country has no more than 5-15% as well (even LESS than 15% on a national level) . England has 40% and Wales and Scotland have about 55-60% each whereas Ireland has more than 75%. And I can't wait for a moderator to read what you called me right there.

 

[adamo]

The highest frequencies of R-L21 In the Iberian peninsula is in the northernmost 1/6 of the peninsula with a small 5-10% coat; it's barely present on Iberia: totally maxing out at 10%. Both Germany and Portugal have no more than 1-5% R-L21 each. Most of France has 5-10% but in the Brittany region as many as 40% of the males can have it; this high wanes out quickly though as in just neighbouring provinces the percentages drop to 10-15% and quickly lower.

 

[adamo]

Ireland (75%), (Wales 55%) (Scotland 45%) England (35%) France (8%; maybe 10% but I doubt it) those would be your world's highest frequencies.

 

[adamo]

In significant concentrations; it can only be found on the British isles. And the M-222 subclade is even more reserved; it's origins in Ireland are confirmed and it dominates there.

 

[American Idiot]

And I can't wait for a moderator to read what you called me right there.

you are an actual adult, aren't you?

 

[adamo]

Yes; I am, and you will probably receive an infraction at Eupedia forums : ) try not to get too many though! ; ). So basically 3/4 of Irish men, more or less 1/2 welsh and Scottish men and about 2/5 to 1/3 of English men are R-L21. The next highest frequencies I believe is France; at around 1/10 if not even slightly less.

 

[American Idiot]

In significant concentrations; it can only be found on the British isles.

thank you for stating the obvious yourself......yet it's not found ONLY in the Isles. And you still have not explained why? if it originated in the Isles,as you claim, then why is it spread so far throughout Western Europe? Of course it's in lower frequency on the continent since many of the earlier Celts in Europe were overrun by various other incoming groups at many stages, and for a much longer period then the Celts of the Isles were.

Ireland was never fully overrun by any outsider in historical times. So it makes perfect sense that it's very high there to this day.
And obviously the Saxons never wiped out the native Britons, but, on the whole, assimilated them....with a few regional exceptions.

 

[adamo]

I find it ironic how the region of France is named "Brittany" (sounds oddly familiar to Great Britain) in French they say Bretagne and England is grande-Bretagne; I believe this western province of France in particular was colonized by either English or Irish me at some point....,the evidence points towards the Irish as they, similar to the French, lack the Germanic lineages of the English (in what concerns R-S21 in particular) but who knows the migration may have been done via England BEFORE the arrival of the continental Germanics to England. I whole-hearted lay are with Nobody's comment on Armoria that he stated above; there's a special connection between France's Brittany region ad I assume England.

 

[American Idiot]

Yes; I am, and you will probably receive an infraction at Eupedia forums : ) try not to get too many though! ; ). So basically 3/4 of Irish men, more or less 1/2 welsh and Scottish men and about 2/5 to 1/3 of English men are R-L21. The next highest frequencies I believe is France; at around 1/10 if not even slightly less.

that is nice but still doesnt actually back up your theory about R1b-L21 originating in England.........

 

[American Idiot]

I find it ironic how the region of France is named "Brittany" (sounds oddly familiar to Great Britain) in French they say Bretagne and England is grande-Bretagne; I believe this western province of France in particular was colonized by either English or Irish me at some point....,the evidence points towards the Irish as they, similar to the French, lack the Germanic lineages of the English (in what concerns R-S21 in particular) but who knows the migration may have been done via England BEFORE the arrival of the continental Germanics to England. I whole-hearted lay are with Nobody's comment on Armoria that he stated above; there's a special connection between France's Brittany region ad I assume England.

yeah like I said,,, regional exceptions, like the west country where the British-Celtic ancestors of Bretons came from.

now you are just making stuff up... there is NO evidence what so ever that Brittany was significantly colonized by the Irish.

it was settled by Old British speaking Celts from England and perhaps Wales also, at the time of the Germanic invasions to Britain and maybe started earlier. You should try to catch up with what has been established for a long time now.