Red hair existed in pre-historic Europe

[giuseppe rossi]

Neanderthals 50 kya years ago sported read hair in Europe.

West Eurasians mixed with Neanderthals only in the Middle East, so we must suppose that all Neanderthals had that red hair mutation, because the humans also have it.

 

[Drax]

Genetiker himself have said to be cautious about Kostenki analysis; for the "light skin"; he talk about "Mongoloid light skin"; so far lighter than indians or west asians in general.

For EHG; if we talk about light colors (hairs, skins and eyes) well, that not a surprise if we take the Andronovo; Bell Beaker or Tocharians peoples:

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00439-009-0683-0

"Finally, our data indicate that at the Bronze and Iron Age timeframe, south Siberians were blue (or green)-eyed, fair-skinned and light-haired people and that they might have played a role in the early development of the Tarim Basin civilization."

I don't think they use "fair skinned"; if these peoples were not "fair-skinned" (they don't hesitate, in these kind of studies, to use the words "olive skin" if they have some doubt), imho they were probably more fair-skinned that the europeans farmers, and logically closer to modern europeans...

Also Motola WHG have lot of ANE (unlike the others "brown skinned" WHG; maybe that the "key"); Yamna have 40-45% WHG; so that seem "logical" in they have lot of the same features.

but I'm agree for Genetiker tests about WHG redhairs; EHG blonds etc..., we should wait for the other analysis; but that still very interesting and intriguing.

 

[Fire Haired14]

Those bronze age Siberians were not tested for many pigmentation SNPs. From what I saw they had similar results as modern north Euros. The SNPs tested can't tell much about their hair color. All we know is that they had light skin and mostly blue eyes. Although a closely related bronze age Mongolian who was put through Hirisplex was predicted to have dark blonde hair, and mummies from relatives of these people, ancient writings, and ancient art prove they had diversity in hair color.

Most Mesolithic SHG and EHG samples surprisingly have the same light skin mutations as modern Europeans, although not all did. But I don't have faith in the current "light skin" mutations making much of an affect, so their skin color remains unknown. I am very confident that EHG and SHG ranged in hair color from yellow-black-red and had mostly blue eyes. It makes me wonder if they're the source of such pigmentation in modern Euros and Andronovo, but that's a bit of stretch.

Although Neolithic EEF may have been more dark haired(we can't say till we get more EHG and SHG) they did range in hair color from yellow-black and may have had red to. So, why can't they also be a source for hair color diversity in modern Europe and Andronovo. Both EEF and EHG-SHG-WHG(?) probably gave later Europeans hair color diversity.

 

[Fire Haired14]

According Genetiker, Mesolithic Samara EHG (ancestor of Yamna) was blond haired, blue eyes with fair skins, I guess that make him the first individual with these features; he was probably R1b (or maybe R1a.

There are also another link in Genetiker blog, about Kostenki:

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2014/11/14/analyses-of-the-kostenki-14-genome/

"The results also show Kostenki 14 as having derived alleles associated with red hair, milk digestion, Mongoloid light skin, and blond hair and blue eyes. Some caution must be exercised in interpreting these results, because the Kostenki 14 genome is not nearly as high-coverage as some of the other prehistoric genomes. But the results also can’t simply be dismissed, because it’s not impossible that Kostenki 14 did have the derived alleles shown below."

That could explain why we find these features to the different group of peoples in Europe; and Kostenti has already the same three ancestors that the modern European (it was already a very big surprise).

K-14 only had a red hair marker. He had ancestral dark alleles for everything else. Geneticker must be referring to genes that are very weakly associated with pale traits. The dude lived 38,000 years ago, so there's no way a hair-eye color test based on modern people will work on him anyways.

 

[LeBrok]

West Eurasians mixed with Neanderthals only in the Middle East, so we must suppose that all Neanderthals had that red hair mutation, because the humans also have it.

We don't know where all the mixing went. It started in Near East, because it was the first contact area between H Sapiens from Africa and Neanderthals. When the first mixing happened there were no West Eurasians yet, just black people from Africa.

Now, for these Africans to populate the North they needed to lighten up. What is the easiest way to get lighter skin? Wait tens of thousands of years for one to show up accidently, or "borrow" existing one from Neanderthals? As long as they could have offspring together, the later was way easier option.

 

[Alan]

Genetiker himself have said to be cautious about Kostenki analysis; for the "light skin"; he talk about "Mongoloid light skin"; so far lighter than indians or west asians in general.

"Mongoloid light skin" is crap talk and just a play of words, because Mongoloids lack the modern Eurasian light skin alleles so he couldn't be as light.

Mongoloids do not have lighter skin as West Asian lol. And than you say even "far lighter". I don't know if you have ever seen a "Mongoloid" in your entire life. And you also talk about West Asians and South Asians as if they have one and the same skin tone.

You often use notions you have not much knowledge about. Kostenki clusters next to Caucasus populations. And Kostenki had even South Asian genes next to West Asian genes. Kostenki was the first human to be already evolved predominantly into a West Eurasian based on genetic.

This is Mongoloids How on earth do say have "lighter", let alone "far lighter" skin than South Asians, let alone West Asians?
http://www.willgoto.com/images/Size...i_desert_de61a1fcf6164e9ca2f4cc8342879f81.jpg
http://www.mongolia-travel-guide.com/image-files/mp-mongolian-nomad-man-with-camels.jpg
http://cdn.stylisheve.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Chinese-Hairstyles-for-men-_04.jpg
http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/chinese-guy-794328.jpg
http://www.wikinger-reisen.de/bilde...pg?PHPSESSID=732300879792a5ad4d1bc82400d9ad2f

 

[Alan]

K-14 only had a red hair marker. He had ancestral dark alleles for everything else. Geneticker must be referring to genes that are very weakly associated with pale traits. The dude lived 38,000 years ago, so there's no way a hair-eye color test based on modern people will work on him anyways.

Genetiker is known to make an elefant out of a mouse. He was often criticized for his "insane" theories and harsh words against Dienekes.

So I would generally be cautious about his conclusions, compared to Genetiker other bloggers appear like the most unbiased people on the earth. I mean come on now who ins this period of time seriously claims R1b originated from the Gravitterian and from Iberia moved into Yamna to form Indo Europeans? That is what he proposes.

 

[Drax]

@Alan

Yes, Mongoloids; and in your pictures too, are far lighter than most west and south asians (in my previous messages I have clearly said "in general"), if you can't accept it, I can't help you; and I don't have said nothing about Kostenki; I have simply copy/paste the article from Genetiker and just talked about "light Mongoloid skins"; nothing more nothing less.

For your personnal attack against me; well I have already said mutliples time that I'm not a specialist; but you are clearly not too; I can't count how many mistakes you have said in various threads, but you continue to make harsh accusations against real scientifics like Reich; or blogger like Davidski from Eurogenes; and now against Genetiker 3/4 times just in this thread; look if you have a problem with them; complain to them directly by email; and explain how you are superior and more scientific than they are; and again, I have just copy/past their articles.

@Fire Haired14

Thank you very much to have replied in a very civil manner, it's very interesting; thank you; I agree that the light hairs could be from these various peoples in Europe.

 

[Alan]

@Alan

Yes, Mongoloids; and in your pictures too, are far lighter than most west and south asians (in my previous messages I have clearly said "in general"), if you can't accept it, I can't help you; and I don't have said nothing about Kostenki; I have simply copy/paste the article from Genetiker and just talked about "light Mongoloid skins"; nothing more nothing less.

personal attack on you? I simply corrected you. If correcting you is considered "personal attack" than fine. The personal attack I see here is coming from your side. And I am not going to take your nonsense anymore. If you have no clue than stop talking.

You probably mean no one can help you. Your claims are insane and you have absolutely no clue about the things you are talking. If you believe these individuals I posted are lighter (let alone "much" lighter) you must have been living on an isolated island.

Genetic "lightness" is not even equal to physical lightness, because other enviormental things can play a role.

I am now showing you just two examples of Arabian man, the most southern part of Western Asian.

http://topnews.ae/sites/default/files/Mohammed-Bin-Zayed-Al-Nahyan.jpg
http://regmedia.co.uk/2015/01/08/raif_badawi.jpg?x=648&y=429&crop=1

Take in mind these Arabs live in a region were the UV radiation is far stronger. If you are seriously telling me even these Arabians are far darker as the "mongoloids" than you are either biased or have not much experience.

Take in mind "West Asia" is big. Even in South_Central Asia you have populations such as Afghans who are clearly on the skin color shade as their Asian neighbors.

So if it is said "Kostenki14 had Mongoloid like light skin" according to Genetiker(whos work I find dubious anyways), in connection to Kostenkis genetic origin (West Eurasian close to Caucasian populations) Than the conclusion is he is on the West_SouthCentral Asian or South European range.

 

[Drax]

You have corrected nothing and your "knowledge" (lol) impress just yourself, you have just talked absolutely no sense, and again, I don't have given any opinion about Kostenki; I have copy/past Genetiker message.

Yes personnal attack because first you don't have the level to correct someone or make judgement; you are biased because of your kurdish origin (something you have said yourself); you have "corrected" also Reich in your own fantasy world (and accuse him to be "eurocentrist"), so I guess he have made a mistake too and he is not a "scientific" for you ? Yes your picture you have posted of these arabic men are far brown skinned than Mongoloid peoples, deal with it; please try to compare Sadam Hussein/ahmadinejad or Ghandi (who physically represent well their populations) to Kim Jung Il or Yao ming for example; and again like I have already said multiples times, I have talked "in general" for the comparaison; not about isolated groups.

Yes the UV radiation is "far stronger" in arabia than in their country; but not always; and Mongoloids peoples who live in Arabic countries for years are still far lighter than them; west or south asians who live in the cold North Europe are still dark skinned; darker than the Mongoloids in general; the climate don't have too much influence for "skins"; north African countries are in general warmer than in subsaharian countries but their peoples are far lighter; or try to compare the dravidians populations to Nepalese peoples (so "mongoloid") despite to be in the same country, Nepaleses are far lighter than the vast majority of indians; in Afghanistan too, Mongoloid are in general lighter than the majority of the population; if you don't know that; well you shouldn't post messages in these forums.

 

[Angela]

I am singularly unimpressed by subjective comments about who someone thinks is "lighter" or "darker". Nor do I see what on earth any of this has to do with the question of whether red hair existed in K14.

For the benefit of Drax, I will repeat for the hundredth time, pigmentation is a polygenic trait! Specifically as to this topic, one red haired allele will not result in red hair even if all other depigmentation snps are present. If it did, I would have red hair. If you find this difficult to understand, please refer to the numerous studies I have posted on the subject. Use the search engine.

As to "Mongoloids", that is a singularly unhelpful term in this context. East Asians, Southeast Asians, and Central Asians each have a different profile in terms of the presence of depigmentation mutations. Some of them they share with West Eurasians, while some of them are the product of convergent evolution. At any rate, the sweep of many of their depigmentation alleles is as relatively recent, it seems, as is the case in the West.

If you have such a particular interest in the pigmentation of East Asia in general, please feel free to open a thread about it.

Ed. Oh, by the way, are you any relation to Drac? Such a similarity of name.

 

[Drax]

@Angela

First sorry to have contribued to the derailment of this topic, and I'm really sorry for Fire Haired 14; specially because I find this thread really interesting.

Angela, thank very much you for your comment, but there are a problem, I have said absolutely nothing !!! You can see my previous messages, I have absolutely made no comment about red hair or pigmentation of these old samples, I have just posted the link about Genetiker test because it was more or less the same subject (the "light hairs" test of the old EHG and Kostenki from Genetiker); it was a big surprise for me to see his theory/test about Kostenki; and I have simply shared the link; I have no idea about the subject and I don't have made any kind of comment; theory or give my own opinion etc...about these old samples; I try to be humble; again if you see my previous messages, I have simply copy/past the articles from Genetiker; and I have no idea if he is right or wrong etc...that not really my business.

No sorry; no relation with Drac.

 

[MOESAN]

I answer yu and others here, so, you haven' t to take it for your account:
more than a biallelic locus exists, I think concerning red hair - I don't see the link with Neanderthal -
Y-haplo's CAN have links with other autosomes as long as a population doesn't mix with an other? not more, not less -
red hairs, today, aren't the Baltic richness, not at all (only Estonians seem having about the European mean or just above, about the 2% - Latvians and Lithuanians are under 0,6% of red + reddish hairs -
IT'S NOT RARITY OF A GENE VARIANT THAT PUSH IT TO DISAPPEAR, IN NO WAY IT'S RECESSIVE QUALITY/ HOW COULD PORTUGUESES HAVE BLOND HAIR (1,5%) OR SARDINIANS (1%)??? blond would have disappeared after all these centuries of scarcity - THE RECESSIVE QUALITY PERMITS THE REAPPARITION OF A VARIANT WE BELIEVE IT WAS DISAPPEARED, AT THE CONTRARY!!!

how! I answer myself, windy mind! mY point was: IT IS RARITY WHICHN LEADS TO DISAPPEARANCE, NOT RECESSIVITY:
sorry,I hope you had understood

 

[MOESAN]

Angela is right when she speaks about different genes involved in depigmentation -
concerning Arabs, the autosomes prove the subsaharian imput (Yemen) and the most of previous Arabs were lighter skinned + no complete homogeneity- if you look for a arab footballer you have more chances to find a very dark one !!!
same among roughly said mongoloids: Coreans are among the lighter ones same level as southern Europeans means

 

[Alan]

I am singularly unimpressed by subjective comments about who someone thinks is "lighter" or "darker". Nor do I see what on earth any of this has to do with the question of whether red hair existed in K14.

It's not about who is "darker" or "lighter" per se take in mind there is obvious ethnocentric agenda behind this. Since Genetiker said he might have Mongoloid type "light skin", Drax is now advocating that "mongoloids" are lighter than South or even Western Asians. So the conclusion is, " Since "mongoloids" are lighter than West Asians, Kostenki was lookwise closer to Europeans so Europeans are the "original Caucasian look". That is what is going through his mind and this (beside that he is often claiming nonsensical things) made me correct him.

 

[Alan]

Angela is right when she speaks about different genes involved in depigmentation -
concerning Arabs, the autosomes prove the subsaharian imput (Yemen) and the most of previous Arabs were lighter skinned + no complete homogeneity- if you look for a arab footballer you have more chances to find a very dark one !!!
same among roughly said mongoloids: Coreans are among the lighter ones same level as southern Europeans means

Most of the Arabian football team players are good payed foreigners. There are rarely ethnic Arabians among them. Just for example in the Handball Kuwaiti team there are more Bosnians than actual Kuwaitis. You have to know Arabian countries are multi ethnic. Having allot of workers from India, Africa and Europe. Arabian countries are relatively racist against foreigners that is the bad truth. Heck they are even bad to other Arabs outside the Arabian peninsula.

For example in this image of Saudi Arabian football team. Only 1-2 persons are ethnic Saudis. All the other are payed foreigners. They have many East sometimes North African football players in their team.
http://www.arriyadh.com/Eng/Sports/...y-and-achievements.doc_cvt.files/image023.jpg


Or this Qatari team. Only two are actual Qataris. The second from left in the back row and the guy with number 8 in the first row. All the others are African, Iranian, Bosnien and Pakistani/Indian.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Qatar_national_football_team.jpg


However average Japanese or Mongolian is lighter than Arabians of course. I was just trying to point out that it is ridiculously wrong to think they are far lighter as all West Asians if they are barely few shades lighter than Arabians. From my own observation the lightest skinned East Eurasians countries are on level with northern West Asians and South Europeans. the notion that Kostenki being "Mongoloid light" makes him lighter than West Asians is just so wrong. So you can't "lighten up" Kostenki based on this statement to make him not fit "West Asian standards".

 

[Drax]

lol, you are really parano Alan, seriously you are insane; I have posted these links simply because peoples in this topic talk about neanderthals; WHG and their potential redhead (or various hair colors); seriously you have a big problem against Europeans peoples (that not a surprise from you); I have said Mongoloids are lighter simply because...they are lighter than west/south asians; unlike what you claim in your previous post, nothing more nothing less.

And again, these articles are not from me; I have simply copy/paste the articles (unlike what you said; I have never claiming "something" or make my own theory, unlike you with your kurdish fairy tales; I have always posted links for various articles in my messages), if you have problem with that, feel free to complain by mail to Genetiker.

Again I'm not European, (or East Asian for the record), so try again about "to be biased"; specially with your kurdish/west asian propaganda no sense..and lol with your "made me correct him"; you don't have the level for that.

 

[Angela]

lol, you are really parano Alan, seriously you are insane; I have posted these links simply because peoples in this topic talk about neanderthals; WHG and their potential redhead (or various hair colors); seriously you have a big problem against Europeans peoples (that not a surprise from you); I have said Mongoloids are lighter simply because...they are lighter than west/south asians; unlike what you claim in your previous post, nothing more nothing less.

And again, these articles are not from me; I have simply copy/paste the articles (unlike what you said; I have never claiming "something" or make my own theory, unlike you with your kurdish fairy tales; I have always posted links for various articles in my messages), if you have problem with that, feel free to complain by mail to Genetiker.

Again I'm not European, (or East Asian for the record), so try again about "to be biased"; specially with your kurdish/west asian propaganda no sense..and lol with your "made me correct him"; you don't have the level for that.

I am not going to warn you again about posting ad hominem attacks! The next one that does it is going to suffer the consequences.

For your information, Alan contributes a great deal of pertinent information regarding genetics, which is more than can be said for some others who frequent this Board.

Kostenski did not have modern West Eurasian pigmentation. End of story.

Ed. I don't know if this is an accurate representation. I suppose opinions could differ, but it is at least how a Russian scientist pictured him...he's by way of being a collateral relative of mine, since I am also U2. However, I bear no resemblance to him whatsoever.

 

[Alan]

I am not going to warn you again about posting ad hominem attacks! The next one that does it is going to suffer the consequences.

For your information, Alan contributes a great deal of pertinent information regarding genetics, which is more than can be said for some others who frequent this Board.

Kostenski did not have modern West Eurasian pigmentation. End of story.

Ed. I don't know if this is an accurate representation. I suppose opinions could differ, but it is at least how a Russian scientist pictured him...he's by way of being a collateral relative of mine, since I am also U2. However, I bear no resemblance to him whatsoever.

Scientist believe he had still yed archaic "Australoid" like features. Which is clearly visible.

 

[Drac II]

Scientist believe he had still yed archaic "Australoid" like features. Which is clearly visible.

As should be expected from early men. Morphologically speaking, Australoids are regarded as the modern racial type that has changed the least since prehistoric men.