Thanks for the explanation about the Tassili Ladies, T.M. The fact that these petroglyphs depict fair-haired cattle herders reinforces the theory that R1b domesticated cattle in the Early Neolithic and that the original R1b people had fair pigmentation.
I also agree that R1b must have been much more common in North Africa during the humid phase of the Neolithic, when the Sahara was more like savannah than a desert.
Cattle riding certainly preceded horse-riding as cows are tamer than horses. In Hinduism, Shiva rides a bull, a clear hint that the Bronze Age Indo-Aryans also rode cattle at some time.
Where I disagree with you is the suggestion that R1b-V88 could have engendered European R1b-M269. That's phylogenetically impossible. The two lineages split over 10,000 years ago. Besides, the presence of R1b-M269 in Russia, Central Asia and South Asia proves that its origin was around the Black Sea, not in Africa.
Actually, what I was trying to suggest is that R1b-M269 and R1b-V88 split (geographically) representing founder populations with M269 becoming more common in NW Africa and V88 driving further down. Both would have originally trekked from the Near East possibly at slightly different times, so I don't dispute the phylogeny of either.
So now for some linguistic observations...
1. It is an interesting assertion that Proto-Chadic language may have been spread by R1b-V88 cattlemen in the late Neolithic.
But the only R1b-M269 in North Africa is Roman R1b-U152 and R1b-P312. There is only a tiny amount of M269* and only in Algeria and Tunisia, not in Morocco, Libya nor Egypt. That M269 probably from Italy (Romanised Greeks).
Welcome to Eupedia motzart.I am interested in the origin and spread of haplogroup h1 as I belong to h1c3. There is a lot of confusing data out there concerning the origin, spread, and growth of haplogroup H. To me the best explanation is that it was spread in to Europe by Indo European R1b from the Near East and this is how it was spread to North Africa as well. Typically both are found at elevated levels wherever the other is present with some exceptions. I look at the Irish and Basques as the best examples of a preserved R1b/H migration, it is in these populations we see the greatest occurence of the signature characteristic trait of r1b, red hair. I think the reason these populations have greater instances of red hair is because these regions were the most isolated and sparsely populated during the r1b migration and there was less interbreeding with locals. This is also supported by their respective homogenous mixtures. In the Basques we see this along with a minority of Indigenous I2a1/U5 from the nearby refugium.
I am of course not saying that mtDNA haplogroup H was the only companion haplogroup to the r1b migration, just the predominant one. Their dominance in Western Europe go hand in hand. As to the origin, they were probably not always linked but mixed in Anatolia and the surrounding regions. There are of course outliers that contradict this theory but I feel that the vast majority of the sampling done supports it.
Welcome to Eupedia motzart.
I might not remember dates too well, but I'm pretty sure that mt Hg H is attested in Europe at 12,000 years ago. Most likely came with first farmers from Middle East. However R1b is only attested since 6,000 years ago. Nothing so far showed up sooner than that. In this case H came to Europe much sooner than R1b people.
Obviously we can find some subgroups of H connected to R1b. There is a thread by Maciamo on Eupedia connecting mtDNA to IEs.
Also autosomal admixtures (of EEF, WHG and ANE kind) tell us a story that R1b IEs didn't replace majority of original population, perhaps up to 30% in some areas. Their R1b Y chromosome was more successful for some reason replacing up to 80% of existing local Y DNA.
It is possible that R1b tribes brought red hair colour to Europe, but it seams it only thrived in NW Europe. Most likely it is connected to a very pale skin mutations, and it happened that this pale skin likes this part of the world the best, due to specific climate. By genetic connection red hair colour is very popular there too. Pale skin or red hair gene is not located on Y DNA and in such case can drift/transfer to next generation regardless if kids are R1b or not.
|Uznyi Oleni Ostrov [UZOO 77]
|Der Sarkissian 2011; Der Sarkissian 2013
|Pre-pottery Neolithic B
|Tell Halula [H 53]
|Tell Kurdu, Amuq C phase [12:14 and 12:18]
|2 samples 16104T, 16187T, 16216G, 16239G, 16319C
|Özbal 2010 citing 2004(
|Can Sadurnı [CSA 16]
|Derenburg Meerenstieg II [DEB 21]
|G3010A, T4733C, reported as H by Haak. Full mDNA in Brotherton
|Haak 2010; Brotherton 2013; Brandt 2013
Some historical sources on the Fulani describe them as having evolved from a mixture of Berbers and Subsaharan Africans in the last 1000 years or so, and their expansions during that time do seem to be from west to east. And according to various internet sources, some Fulani seem to regard themselves as part Berber descent. However, some Fulani apparently consider themseives to be of Semetic origin. But if it wasn't for the genetic information, I'd be inclined to think that the reason they're taller and somewhat paler than their neighbours was simply because they've traditionally been nomads living primarily on dairy products.
U5 and V are typical of Mesolithic Europeans, but are also found in Northwest Africa as well as among most North Asian peoples. They are the two main haplogroups of the Sami. Haplogroup V has been found as far east as Korea and Japan.
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