Retracing the mtDNA haplogroups of the original R1b people

Thanks for the explanation about the Tassili Ladies, T.M. The fact that these petroglyphs depict fair-haired cattle herders reinforces the theory that R1b domesticated cattle in the Early Neolithic and that the original R1b people had fair pigmentation.

I also agree that R1b must have been much more common in North Africa during the humid phase of the Neolithic, when the Sahara was more like savannah than a desert.

Cattle riding certainly preceded horse-riding as cows are tamer than horses. In Hinduism, Shiva rides a bull, a clear hint that the Bronze Age Indo-Aryans also rode cattle at some time.

Where I disagree with you is the suggestion that R1b-V88 could have engendered European R1b-M269. That's phylogenetically impossible. The two lineages split over 10,000 years ago. Besides, the presence of R1b-M269 in Russia, Central Asia and South Asia proves that its origin was around the Black Sea, not in Africa.


Actually, what I was trying to suggest is that R1b-M269 and R1b-V88 split (geographically) representing founder populations with M269 becoming more common in NW Africa and V88 driving further down. Both would have originally trekked from the Near East possibly at slightly different times, so I don't dispute the phylogeny of either.
 
So now for some linguistic observations...

1. It is an interesting assertion that Proto-Chadic language may have been spread by R1b-V88 cattlemen in the late Neolithic.

2. Equally interesting that Berbers have ultra-high mtdna H1 and some R1b. Reconstructed Proto-Berber was spoken by cattlemen who did not possess camels.

3. It is interesting that Northwest Europeans speak a Centum language. The geographic origin of the Centum languages was likely NE Mespotamia and Southern Anatolia.
This is where the Centum branch of Proto-Anatolian was spoken and Tochari in the Western Zargos. Proto-Euphratean would likely pre-dated the Centum-Satem isogloss and would also likely be Centum-like. It should be noted that this zone is the likely phylogenetic distribution point of many of the uni-parental markers of people in Western Europe.

4. Even more interesting is the peculiarities of the Irish languages which may have been influenced some by an Afro-Asiatic language. Ireland is a unique test case for the origin of the Celtic languages and indeed Proto-Italo-Celtic. Because Ireland appears to have direct continuity with the Beaker Age with no other known population influx, if indeed Irish represents a discreet linguistic vane stemming from the old language, it may have preserved some of the more archaic features of a North African branch.


All of this is important because both Proto-Indo-European and "at least" Proto-Semitic were in close proximity in their formative stages. The age of Proto-Afroasiatic takes us to about the beginning of the Neolithic as early farmers began diffusing from the Near East.

So with that, we should see very high levels of Haplogroup H in the Megalithic farmers who diffused across North Africa and then into Western Europe. These early Neolithic farmers did not yet have R1b as R1b appears to be generally absent in Neolithic communities where H's have already spread with typical farmer Y haplotypes.

At some point in the early Neolithic, a new people, probably R1b began moving into the Middle East and intermingled with the Natives. The only mtdna of an Ubaidian that I am aware of belongs to H3 from Northern Mespotamia.

In the Mid-Neolithic, the hybrids (PIE's) move across Africa with cattle. Theoretically, one group could be our ancestors (M269) who spoke a Centum language, moving into Europe with the Neolithic collapse of North Africa.
 
Actually, what I was trying to suggest is that R1b-M269 and R1b-V88 split (geographically) representing founder populations with M269 becoming more common in NW Africa and V88 driving further down. Both would have originally trekked from the Near East possibly at slightly different times, so I don't dispute the phylogeny of either.

But the only R1b-M269 in North Africa is Roman R1b-U152 and R1b-P312. There is only a tiny amount of M269* and only in Algeria and Tunisia, not in Morocco, Libya nor Egypt. That M269 probably from Italy (Romanised Greeks).
 
So now for some linguistic observations...

1. It is an interesting assertion that Proto-Chadic language may have been spread by R1b-V88 cattlemen in the late Neolithic.

Actually Proto-Chadic is only associated with some R1b-V88 populations (Hausa, Kirdi). The Berbers are Semitic speakers and the Fulani speak a Senegambian language that is not part of the Afro-Asiatic family.

Since PIE arose in the Pontic Steppe, it would have been impossible for the R1b-V88 branch to be Indo-European. It is likely that the Neolithic R1b-V88 herders either spoke an Afro-Asiatic language too (perhaps picked up in the Levant before entering Africa), or a language that is now extinct.
 
I have summarised the presumed historical development of mtDNA haplogroups found in R1b populations here.
 
But the only R1b-M269 in North Africa is Roman R1b-U152 and R1b-P312. There is only a tiny amount of M269* and only in Algeria and Tunisia, not in Morocco, Libya nor Egypt. That M269 probably from Italy (Romanised Greeks).

After looking a little deeper that may be true. I thought the Guanches of the Canaries might have had a significant amount of M269, however this may have been Roman influence as well.
 
I am interested in the origin and spread of haplogroup h1 as I belong to h1c3. There is a lot of confusing data out there concerning the origin, spread, and growth of haplogroup H. To me the best explanation is that it was spread in to Europe by Indo European R1b from the Near East and this is how it was spread to North Africa as well. Typically both are found at elevated levels wherever the other is present with some exceptions. I look at the Irish and Basques as the best examples of a preserved R1b/H migration, it is in these populations we see the greatest occurence of the signature characteristic trait of r1b, red hair. I think the reason these populations have greater instances of red hair is because these regions were the most isolated and sparsely populated during the r1b migration and there was less interbreeding with locals. This is also supported by their respective homogenous mixtures. In the Basques we see this along with a minority of Indigenous I2a1/U5 from the nearby refugium.

I am of course not saying that mtDNA haplogroup H was the only companion haplogroup to the r1b migration, just the predominant one. Their dominance in Western Europe go hand in hand. As to the origin, they were probably not always linked but mixed in Anatolia and the surrounding regions. There are of course outliers that contradict this theory but I feel that the vast majority of the sampling done supports it.
 
I am interested in the origin and spread of haplogroup h1 as I belong to h1c3. There is a lot of confusing data out there concerning the origin, spread, and growth of haplogroup H. To me the best explanation is that it was spread in to Europe by Indo European R1b from the Near East and this is how it was spread to North Africa as well. Typically both are found at elevated levels wherever the other is present with some exceptions. I look at the Irish and Basques as the best examples of a preserved R1b/H migration, it is in these populations we see the greatest occurence of the signature characteristic trait of r1b, red hair. I think the reason these populations have greater instances of red hair is because these regions were the most isolated and sparsely populated during the r1b migration and there was less interbreeding with locals. This is also supported by their respective homogenous mixtures. In the Basques we see this along with a minority of Indigenous I2a1/U5 from the nearby refugium.

I am of course not saying that mtDNA haplogroup H was the only companion haplogroup to the r1b migration, just the predominant one. Their dominance in Western Europe go hand in hand. As to the origin, they were probably not always linked but mixed in Anatolia and the surrounding regions. There are of course outliers that contradict this theory but I feel that the vast majority of the sampling done supports it.
Welcome to Eupedia motzart.

I might not remember dates too well, but I'm pretty sure that mt Hg H is attested in Europe at 12,000 years ago. Most likely came with first farmers from Middle East. However R1b is only attested since 6,000 years ago. Nothing so far showed up sooner than that. In this case H came to Europe much sooner than R1b people.
Obviously we can find some subgroups of H connected to R1b. There is a thread by Maciamo on Eupedia connecting mtDNA to IEs.

Also autosomal admixtures (of EEF, WHG and ANE kind) tell us a story that R1b IEs didn't replace majority of original population, perhaps up to 30% in some areas. Their R1b Y chromosome was more successful for some reason replacing up to 80% of existing local Y DNA.

It is possible that R1b tribes brought red hair colour to Europe, but it seams it only thrived in NW Europe. Most likely it is connected to a very pale skin mutations, and it happened that this pale skin likes this part of the world the best, due to specific climate. By genetic connection red hair colour is very popular there too. Pale skin or red hair gene is not located on Y DNA and in such case can drift/transfer to next generation regardless if kids are R1b or not.
 
Welcome to Eupedia motzart.

I might not remember dates too well, but I'm pretty sure that mt Hg H is attested in Europe at 12,000 years ago. Most likely came with first farmers from Middle East. However R1b is only attested since 6,000 years ago. Nothing so far showed up sooner than that. In this case H came to Europe much sooner than R1b people.
Obviously we can find some subgroups of H connected to R1b. There is a thread by Maciamo on Eupedia connecting mtDNA to IEs.

Also autosomal admixtures (of EEF, WHG and ANE kind) tell us a story that R1b IEs didn't replace majority of original population, perhaps up to 30% in some areas. Their R1b Y chromosome was more successful for some reason replacing up to 80% of existing local Y DNA.

It is possible that R1b tribes brought red hair colour to Europe, but it seams it only thrived in NW Europe. Most likely it is connected to a very pale skin mutations, and it happened that this pale skin likes this part of the world the best, due to specific climate. By genetic connection red hair colour is very popular there too. Pale skin or red hair gene is not located on Y DNA and in such case can drift/transfer to next generation regardless if kids are R1b or not.

Red hair thrives in the Udmurt people of Russia close to the origin point of R1b, it states this in Maciamo's own page on red hair as well as that it is linked to the spread of R1b.

As far as the autosomal admixtures they are incomplete and a very rough estimation at best.

The oldest examples I can find of mtDNA H I can find are

Russia
Uznyi Oleni Ostrov [UZOO 77]7500 BP
H
16311C, 16362C
Der Sarkissian 2011; Der Sarkissian 2013

Pre-pottery Neolithic B
Syria
Tell Halula [H 53]
6800-6000 BC
H5
16304C
Fernández 2008



HalafTurkey
Tell Kurdu, Amuq C phase [12:14 and 12:18]M 6000-5800 BC
H3a?2 samples 16104T, 16187T, 16216G, 16239G, 16319CÖzbal 2010 citing 2004(


I have read many posts on this site discussing the validity of the first results for mtDNA H in Europe, the oldest I can find is:

Cardial Spain
Can Sadurnı [CSA 16]5475–5305 BC
H16362C, 7028CGamba 2012


However this result does not show that H originated in Europe or more specifically Iberia as the claims go, because we know that Neolithic Farmers (G2a) and possibly E1b had already arrived at this time from the Near East possibly bringing earlier subclades of H with them.


The oldest result of H1 that I am interested in is:

LBKGermany
Derenburg Meerenstieg II [DEB 21] F5207-5159 BC
H1jG3010A, T4733C, reported as H by Haak. Full mDNA in Brotherton Haak 2010; Brotherton 2013; Brandt 2013



I am currently reading a study on the topic of the spread of Hg mtDNA in Europe, this is what the study suggests:

"Overall, our results suggest that the broad foundations of the

Central European mtDNA pool, here approximated via hg H,

were formed during the Neolithic rather than the post-glacial

period. ENE(early neolithic) hg H mt lineages brought in from the Near East by

Central Europe’s first farmers do not appear to have contributed

significantly to present-day Central Europe’s hg H diversity,

instead being largely superseded during the MNE(middle neolithic) and LNE(late neolithic) (with

the process starting around 4000 BC), after which there appears

to have been substantial genetic continuity to the present-day in

Central Europe. These developments have been revealed by

comparative full mt genome sequencing and would have

remained obscure using standard HVS I data.

In conclusion, demographic changes across the MNE, followed

by the widespread Bell Beaker cultural phenomenon, are likely to

have been the key factors in the expansion of hg H across

Western Europe and the eventual rise of hg H to become the

predominant mtDNA hg. However, LNE Corded Ware and Early

Bronze Age data suggest a complex series of additional genetic

contributions, which require further investigation."



link docs dot google dot com /file/d/0B-5-JeCa2Z7hU1hlV0xXb2RsODA/edit
 
13,2% is a big percentage IMO. It still reflects on their phenotype, which appears clearly mixed. though a plenty of generations have passed.
 
Some historical sources on the Fulani describe them as having evolved from a mixture of Berbers and Subsaharan Africans in the last 1000 years or so, and their expansions during that time do seem to be from west to east. And according to various internet sources, some Fulani seem to regard themselves as part Berber descent. However, some Fulani apparently consider themseives to be of Semetic origin. But if it wasn't for the genetic information, I'd be inclined to think that the reason they're taller and somewhat paler than their neighbours was simply because they've traditionally been nomads living primarily on dairy products.

Is there a correlation between dairy and pale skin? I have seen some research that suggests lack of vitamin D, in the diet, may have contributed to the paling of skin (after the introduction of wheat, barley, and rye into the diet), but never anything dealing with dairy... Maybe you just meant the dairy made them taller? I'm not denying the paling affect due to geography (or genetics) in Western Europe, but other groups that have existed, esp without agriculture, at far Northern latitudes do tend to have darker skin than European counterparts, maybe the reason is multifaceted.... Here's one source:

http://archaeonova.blogspot.com/2013/05/myths-of-paleo-part-two-pale-skin-in.html
 
U5 and V are typical of Mesolithic Europeans, but are also found in Northwest Africa as well as among most North Asian peoples. They are the two main haplogroups of the Sami. Haplogroup V has been found as far east as Korea and Japan.

Dear Maciamo, Where have you heard about Korean & Japanese have a mtDNA Haplogroup V? Source Please.

The West Eurasian Originated mtDNA Haplogroup is never founded to Korean & Japanese Peoples as far i know.

Sometime found Han Chinese People have West Eurasian mtDNA Haplogroup(HV, U), but I never founded Haplogroup V Korean & Japanese. they most D4.
 

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