Scots, how Celtic are they?

The movements of I1a and R-S21 people's for most of history were independent of each other; two different branches with ultimately different origins.
 
Maciamo said:
You might want to check FTDNA's Scotland Y-DNA Project. It is so far the largest and most detailed database for Scottish Y-DNA.


There are 205 R1b-L21 (38%), which is the most common kind of R1b in Britain. It is found all along the Atlantic coast from Iberia to Norway, as well as in Germany. It could be just as well Celtic or Germanic. In the Netherlands and Scandinavia, L21 is found is approximately the same proportions as U106. So it is fair to assess that 12.5% of Scottish L21 is Germanic and 25.5% is Celtic.

sorry, Maciamo: maybe this post of yours is old now and I'm late, but where did you pick that R-L21 was found in the same proportions in the Netherlands and Scandinavia than R-U106!?!
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spongetaro said:
Western Scotland was invaded by the Gaels in the Vth century. A people from Ireland who spoke a Q-Celtic language (Gaelic) while the previous people of Scotland (the Picts) spoke a P-Celtic language like others Brittons and like some continental celts (Gaulish, lepontic...).
Most Scottish men carry the haplogroup R1b (Proto-celt), especially its subclade R1b L21 (like most Irish men)
Eastern Scotland, the area that was the least settled by the Gaels, shows the highest frequencies in GB of R1b U152 (Alpine and gallic celts) and has significant rates of R1b U106 (Germanic). It is not easy to know wether those two subclades of R1b predate or not the Germanic invasions (Angles...).
Indeed, Scotland got several genetic influx since the early middle ages, bringing germanic haplogroup such as I1, I2a2 (old I2b), R1a (not just germanic but present in Scandinavia) and R1b U106.
During the germanic invasions, the Angles settled in Southern Scotland, that's why Scottish language is very close to the English one.
Later the Vikings from Norway settled in the North, South west and in the islands (Shetlands, Orkney).
So Scotland is mostly celtic but with strong germanic areas (Lowlands, North, Orkney, Shetlands).
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you are right - just details: SW Scotland previously inhabited was gaelicized enough and gaelic was yet spoken in some part of Galloway about the 18°C and even 19°C.. if my readings are right - before the population spoke cumbrian, close to welsh as you know -
Angles took the SE Scotland - today Lowlands/Lallands are inhabited (except the Lothians around Edinburgh, more akin to the central and eastern "angle" Borders) by a mix where Celts and pre-Celts have far more important imput than Germanics as a whole: very close to the Black Country West to Midlands of Birmignham, where Celts too played a big role in population (Welshes, ancient and new coming back!)- it is true too that English "emigrants" come rather to Edinburgh when Irish workers came rather around Glasgow, reinforcing effects of the Past -
 
adamo said:
Most frequently I1 indicates Viking presence. What does what I said even mean? R-S21 is part of the indo-European family (R1a,R1b) inside the indo-European family there is a group called Celtic, and inside the Celtic group there are Italo-celts and Germanics. R-S21 is found in Germanic countries (Germany,Austria,Denmark,England) where these people migrated.
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it seems intuitively evident Adamo, but things are a bit more complicated (sometimes, by chance, not always!!!): by example, Y-I1 is very strong in Angles and Saxons areas of Eastern England (about 25 to 33%) and far less important in Scotland where Vikings take foot as we know by a lot of historical, genetical, cultural data): but it seems that in some british lands taken by Vikings, thses last ones where the result of a drift pulling down the Y-I1 % in favour of Y-R1a and even Y-Q (surveys about the Presqu'Isle in front of Liverpool (Orrell?); even in Scotland the history of Viking settlements is diverse, big differences between Hebrides and Orcades-Shetland and Caithness (male domination with high Y-I1 in Hebrides, poor viking females impact, more females impact in Orkney/Shetlands but less males impact...)
 
Does anyone what the percentage is of i1 and r1bu106 in eastern part of England??
 
tjlowery87 said:
Does anyone what the percentage is of i1 and r1bu106 in eastern part of England??
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I think U106 is around 25% or so, and I1 is about 15-20% on average, with some local spikes ( for example around 25-30% in Fakenham - 33% of I in total, but the majority of that is likely I1).
 
MOESAN said:
you are right - just details: SW Scotland previously inhabited was gaelicized enough and gaelic was yet spoken in some part of Galloway about the 18°C and even 19°C.. if my readings are right - before the population spoke cumbrian, close to welsh as you know -
Angles took the SE Scotland - today Lowlands/Lallands are inhabited (except the Lothians around Edinburgh, more akin to the central and eastern "angle" Borders) by a mix where Celts and pre-Celts have far more important imput than Germanics as a whole: very close to the Black Country West to Midlands of Birmignham, where Celts too played a big role in population (Welshes, ancient and new coming back!)- it is true too that English "emigrants" come rather to Edinburgh when Irish workers came rather around Glasgow, reinforcing effects of the Past -
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It looks like R1b-L21 is around 20-25% along many parts of the Welsh borders, only about 10% higher than it is in the rest of central and south-east, eastern England, the English-Welsh border regions would seem to be quite a substantial barrier, even though they have changed a lot over the centuries:

l21-north-wales.jpg
 
Jackson said:
I think U106 is around 25% or so, and I1 is about 15-20% on average, with some local spikes ( for example around 25-30% in Fakenham - 33% of I in total, but the majority of that is likely I1).
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is this for England as a whole or for the east of England?
 
tjlowery87 said:
is this for England as a whole or for the east of England?
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The east, but it's not much lower in other areas, the average for the country is around 15%, so many western areas are probably 10-15% I1 and about 15-20% R1b-U106.
 
Jackson said:
It looks like R1b-L21 is around 20-25% along many parts of the Welsh borders, only about 10% higher than it is in the rest of central and south-east, eastern England, the English-Welsh border regions would seem to be quite a substantial barrier, even though they have changed a lot over the centuries:

l21-north-wales.jpg
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your absolutely right here - but for Lowlands and Black Country I was just speaking about populations weights in general: autosomals - yet there are big enough differences between West England and East England for males genes, but too, seemingly, East England received more germanic females imput than West England where the germanic imput seems more males transmitted - it is to be checked, it 's true! in Llanidloes central eastern Wales we have apparently a good example of male Angle or Saxon strong imput far in West, when the global autosomals situation surely does not show so high levels of germanic autosomals (is it an hazard if, even in a very local countryside welsh language had been left when welsh was still spoken not long ago in Oswestry?
by the way, should you be kind enough to communicate us the percentages this map is founded upon? (absolute or relative %s and so on...)
thanks beforehand
&: and a smaller taste of L21 can conceal a stronger proportion of Y-R1b of other sorts without being itself of "germanic" origin as U106...
 
MOESAN said:
your absolutely right here - but for Lowlands and Black Country I was just speaking about populations weights in general: autosomals - yet there are big enough differences between West England and East England for males genes, but too, seemingly, East England received more germanic females imput than West England where the germanic imput seems more males transmitted - it is to be checked, it 's true! in Llanidloes central eastern Wales we have apparently a good example of male Angle or Saxon strong imput far in West, when the global autosomals situation surely does not show so high levels of germanic autosomals (is it an hazard if, even in a very local countryside welsh language had been left when welsh was still spoken not long ago in Oswestry?
by the way, should you be kind enough to communicate us the percentages this map is founded upon? (absolute or relative %s and so on...)
thanks beforehand
&: and a smaller taste of L21 can conceal a stronger proportion of Y-R1b of other sorts without being itself of "germanic" origin as U106...
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It was apparently from a Welsh tv program, in which they tested people both sides of the border, i do not have the name of this tv program, but i will look for it soon. I would expect it to be at least a reasonably reliable source given that it's being shown on TV, if i can find the academics behind it i will.

Ahh yeah if you are talking about autosomal dna i agree. I guess it makes sense that the female 'imports' would be mostly apparent in the areas of primary settlement and regions that were Anglo-Saxon during the period over which this migration took place. And the men may have moved a bit more during the secondary phase where the west was conquered/colonized from the eastern territories rather than directly from abroad.

Although the 'big red blob' in POBI does extent to an area close to the Welsh borders, these regions that are about 20-25% in L21 look to correspond with areas in which the genetic cluster is between the big red cluster and the Welsh clusters. There was a fair bit of Welsh settlement in these parts of England in the medieval period and also the border was very fluid for a long time, so it's not surprising that this area is an intermediary between the Welsh and central England.

It's certainly true in my family, my grandmother is noticeably more western than the rest of my family, and about half of her ancestry is from western areas of England (Cheshire and Devon).
 
Jackson said:
The east, but it's not much lower in other areas, the average for the country is around 15%, so many western areas are probably 10-15% I1 and about 15-20% R1b-U106.
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what is 15%?togethers they equal 35% in England not counting any thing else.
 
Being extreme west Europeans, it is no surprise that the scots are among the most Celtic people's culturally and genetically. R1b is present at 70-80% average around here and this is tremendous genetic proof of this. Other extremely Celtic nations are Ireland (85-90%) R1b, Wales (80-85%), England (75-80%), Spain (65-75%), France (60-70%), Belgium (65%), holland (65%), Portugal (60%), Switzerland (50%), Germany and Italy have similar frequencies to Switzerland as well. Frequencies drop to 25-30% towards the extreme north (Norway,Sweden) (not present in Finland) in southern Italy and towards eastern Germany on the polish border. In Austria, for example, a country with Germanic history, R1b can still be found at 30-40%; same for the Czech Republic. Croatia though only has 15%; same for Greece, Poland, Romania, Hungary (15-20%), it's found in less Serbs and Russians or Finns (5-10%). Unlike most people's beliefs about 2/5 Danes are R1b positive (35-40%).
 
r1b-u106 is 20% in England.......its not celtic
 
Anything R1b is Celtic; R1b-U106 is the Germanic branch of R1b.
 
So if we want to analyze the British isles R1b samples for example; we find a mix of Germanic (R-S21) and Italo-Celtic (P312) R1b; with England having the highest Germanic component and the Irish having the most L-21 derived lineages (the youngest of the Italo-Celtic branch).
 
I've always believed the older Germanics occupied/expanded from the Germany/holland/austria (u-106 is much younger there) central continental European Germanic celts. Whereas the Italo-celtic subclades initially expanded from northern Spain/ southern France towards Spain,France,north Italy, Ireland etc.
 
The Italo-Celtic strain used Iberia as an initial expansion point (Cantabrian refuge); the Germanics may have too for all I know but the Italo-celts certainly did.
 
r1b df19 and r1bl238 are believe to come to the isles with Germanic as well
 
adamo said:
Anything R1b is Celtic; R1b-U106 is the Germanic branch of R1b.
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That is a contradiction and also a broad, inccorect statement.
And R1b extends over many areas that were not Celtic, and some Celtic areas in what is now eastern Europe have relatively little R1b. And of course i doubt the R1b in Africa is Celtic.

I thought we'd moved away from the R1b = Celtic thinking. And you must also acknowledge that there are significant variations between the types of R1b carried by Celtic speaking groups, and often overlap between other areas that are culturally and linguistically different.
 
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