Serbs and Croats origin from Germanic Scirii and Hirri?

Ostrogoths could not speak Gothic language while inhabiting territory of today's Ukraine and Belarus simply because Gothic language would be totally useless there. If Ostrogoths were Goths, you would find today some I2 in Sweden.

stop drinking so much :)

I2-Din is only I2 of east Europe including Ukraine where Goths dwelled for a while...
if Goths had I2a-Din, there would be some I2a-Din in areas of kingdoms of Visigoths and Ostrogoths... but there is none...

conclusion:

Visiigoths and Ostrogoths had no I2a-Din...


Scirii are different case all together.....
their germanic origin is questioned in number of historical accounts....there were speculations that they are Venedi, Sarmatians (or more precisely Alans from what I remember), even Turkic....

from what I have seen their historical movements and settlements correspond to locations of I2a-din South....
for me that is a good trace....

considering them Germanic may also be due to criteria that early roman historians had when defining germanic - for them those who live in houses were Germanic, those who live like nomads are Sarmatian...in fact, exactly with Venedi there was dillema where to put them as they lived in houses but resembled Sarmatians otherwise.....or this can be about distant tribal origin...tribal origins were important in distant times...

for me Scirii fit perfectly in the story about Zeruiani whose state is so big that all Slavs come from it...and Serians who rule over scattered Scythians...

also Dalmil's chronicle account suggests that Slavic people have received the language from Serbs.... because it says first Czech is born among Poles in Croatia state that is part of Serbian language area....
it doesnot say Poles or Croats who are Serbs, but that in Serbian language there is land Croatia in which also Poles live....

so, in my opinion Serians (Scirians/Scirii) transfer their language to Scythians they rule over... and that is origin of Slavic languages and Slavic people.... as I show in thread "who are Slavs?" core and directions of early Slavic expansion seems to fairly well match expansion of I2a-dinaric (both north and south) and are not really traceable in R1a genetics....

now if Croatia would be a name of state in a aprt of serbian language area.... this suggests that state could be established by non-slavic rulling elite - it can be e.g. about Germanic tribe of Heruli rulling over part of proto-Slavic people who have previously mixed with Scirii/Serians and adopted language of Serians/Scirii but are aware that they are not Serians... how did they call themselves? perhaps Venedi?

in light of this, more R1a in modern Croats than in Serbs can have two origins: 1) more assimilation of people who are Serians by language and not by origin like e.g. Poles, 2) Heruli, considering proposed origin in south of Scandinavia, might be originally not I2a-Din but germanic R1a rulling ellite who have obtained I2a-Din by rulling over real Serians and Serians by language ... e.g. even today most I2a-Dinaric areas in Croatia are those whose people (no population replacement happened in south Croatia and west Herzegovina) that early history source De Administrando imperio records as Serbs......similar could have happened many times in past as it seems clear that two tribes have travelled in pair....
 
Germanic tribes existed before Slavic tribes! Ancient Germanic tribes = R1b + I1 + R1a. With all due respect but Slavic peoples don't have any (ancient) history at all. According to me, people in Eastern Europe started unifying with each other and started to share common region, culture and language with each other after I2a +R1a got mixed with each other. Slavic peoples = I2a + R1a. Germanic peoples R1b + I1 + R1a.
 
Germanic tribes existed before Slavic tribes! Ancient Germanic tribes = R1b + I1 + R1a. With all due respect but Slavic peoples don't have any (ancient) history at all. According to me, people in Eastern Europe started unifying with each other and started to share common region, culture and language with each other after I2a +R1a got mixed with each other. Slavic peoples = I2a + R1a. Germanic peoples R1b + I1 + R1a.
What about I2b?
 
What about I2b?
It's more 'northwest' than 'southeast' European right? According to me I2b coexisted together with I1. I2b is from West Germany, native to that region.
 
indications that Scirii are Alans/Sarmatians... or in fact a standalone race?

some arguments about disputed origin of Scirii taken from explanation added to Tacitus book Germania

http://books.google.nl/books?id=M1c...nepage&q=scirii alans germanic turkic&f=false


1) Olbian inscription mentions Scirii together with Galatai
2) Procopius joins them with Goths and Alans
3) Jordanes puts them among Alans...("Scirii et Satagarii and other Alans")
4) names of their two known leaders are Germanic, which may indicate germanic origin/influence or rulling elite
5) there were Sciri as far as Bavaria!!!
6) turcilingi tribe with tribal name suggesting turkic origin was either part of Scirii or closely related tribe.... which together with Aspar name of one tribal chefs in times of Hun domination, and weird idea that Alans are turkic is used as a basis for speculations that they are turkic...
7) Scirii have waged war against Goths relying on help from Sarmatians..

-----------------------------------------------------------
conclusion:

I think turcilingi = turkic speakers (turci + lingua) and is part of tribe used for communication with their turkic allies...
also Alans are iranian (sarmatian) tribe and not turkic....

two tribal chiefs with germanic names may be due to being somewhat subjugated or influenced culturally by Goths...it can be as well about distant germanic origin

germanic tribe is not likely to launch surprise attack on Goths and to rely on Sarmatians for help....

Jordanes is best source due to his origin and functions he did, and he place them among Alans....

origin from Sarmatians covers well all 7 statements above, while germanic or turkic origin cover well at most one or two...

however, Seneca states that they live among Sarmatians unguarded from them....
this indicates that they are not Sarmatians....

So, I believe Serians/Scirians/Scirii were race for itself and not part of germanic, sarmatian or turkic stock
i think Serians are original bearers of proto-Slavic language and of I2a-dinaric group...
 
some arguments about disputed origin of Scirii taken from explanation added to Tacitus book Germania

http://books.google.nl/books?id=M1cOAAAAQAAJ&dq=scirii%20alans%20germanic%20turkic&pg=RA1-PR97#v=onepage&q=scirii%20alans%20germanic%20turkic&f=false


1) Olbian inscription mentions Scirii together with Galatai
2) Procopius joins them with Goths and Alans
3) Jordanes puts them among Alans...("Scirii et Satagarii and other Alans")
4) names of their two known leaders are Germanic, which may indicate germanic origin/influence or rulling elite
5) there were Sciri as far as Bavaria!!!
6) turcilingi tribe with tribal name suggesting turkic origin was either part of Scirii or closely related tribe.... which together with Aspar name of one tribal chefs in times of Hun domination, and weird idea that Alans are turkic is used as a basis for speculations that they are turkic...
7) Scirii have waged war against Goths relying on help from Sarmatians..

-----------------------------------------------------------
conclusion:

I think turcilingi = turkic speakers (turci + lingua) and is part of tribe used for communication with their turkic allies...
also Alans are iranian (sarmatian) tribe and not turkic....

two tribal chiefs with germanic names may be due to being somewhat subjugated or influenced culturally by Goths...it can be as well about distant germanic origin

germanic tribe is not likely to launch surprise attack on Goths and to rely on Sarmatians for help....

Jordanes is best source due to his origin and functions he did, and he place them among Alans....

origin from Sarmatians covers well all 7 statements above, while germanic or turkic origin cover well at most one or two...

however, Seneca states that they live among Sarmatians unguarded from them....
this indicates that they are not Sarmatians....

So, I believe Serians/Scirians/Scirii were race for itself and not part of germanic, sarmatian or turkic stock
i think Serians are original bearers of proto-Slavic language and of I2a-dinaric group...

What role do you think the Antes played (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antes_people) ? For now I speculate that Slavs are of 80% baltic and 20% antic origin, whereas Antes are inanian speaking and genetically close to certain Caucasian tribes. Could it be that south slavs are more related to Antes, whereas northern slavs tend to be antizised (slavicised?) balts. The migration map of antes could perhaps fit I2-Din.
Thanks!

483px-Slavic_peoples_6th_century_historical_map.jpg
 
How Yes No... your ideas really make one think. I like that you source ancient writers directly. If you're correct, what reason would these tribes have had for travelling so far from their home territories?
 
Germanic tribes existed before Slavic tribes! Ancient Germanic tribes = R1b + I1 + R1a. With all due respect but Slavic peoples don't have any (ancient) history at all. According to me, people in Eastern Europe started unifying with each other and started to share common region, culture and language with each other after I2a +R1a got mixed with each other. Slavic peoples = I2a + R1a. Germanic peoples R1b + I1 + R1a.

Bratko, you are wrong. Slavic (Scythian/Sarmatian) tribes are older. There were no Germanic tribes until Celts (R1b) admitted superiority of Goths (I1) coming from from Scandinavian peninsula and adopted their Gothic language, so R1b+I1 can be regarded as Germanic stamp. R1a is Slavic as it comes from the territory of Scythia and was acquired by Germans as a result of their march under the slogan Drang Nach Osten. East Germans (former Prussia) are carriers of R1a as they are germanised Slavs. I2a joined R1a predominantly in Balkans, as a result of the migration of Ostrogoths. You won't find much of I2a in Poland, as the Ostrogoths went South.
 
stop drinking so much :)

....

Bratko, your theory is too complicated to be true. I am advising you to take a copter and fly over the jungle, in which you are at the moment. From a distance you will see the whole picture, not only single trees.
 
What role do you think the Antes played (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antes_people) ? For now I speculate that Slavs are of 80% baltic and 20% antic origin, whereas Antes are inanian speaking and genetically close to certain Caucasian tribes. Could it be that south slavs are more related to Antes, whereas northern slavs tend to be antizised (slavicised?) balts. The migration map of antes could perhaps fit I2-Din.
Thanks!

not sure yet...

according to De Administrando imperio, both Serbs and Croats came to Balkan from most west part of Slavic settlements where they were called "white", which probably meant they were part of Venedi... The rest of Venedi would be Poles and Czechs. Czechs according to Dalmil's chronicle origin from Poles. Sclaveni I would map to Slovenians and Slovakians. Antes would give Russians, Belorussians and Ukrainians....

unresolved question is the source of Slavic language... and role of I2a-din in making of Slavs..note that I2a-Din north is spread along all Slavic countries, while younger I2a-Din South is related to Serb settled areas (now and in Boiki or Bohemia) and elsewhere seems to map to earlier Scirii.....since Dalmil's chronicle puts Czechs origin among Poles who live in Croat state in serbian language, I suggest that Poles and Czechs come from Venedi, who have accepted language of Scirians or Serians. Part of Poles who spoke language of Serbs (or Slavic) were rulled by Heruli elite in area of Slovakia, Moravia and south Poland - this is white Croatia mentioned in De administrando imperio.....Heruli/Hirri elite has lost their language as they were minority...
how did Serbs impose their language on Venedi? Seneca speaks of Serians rule over scattered Scythians....
so in Seneca's time (1st century AD) Scirii were probably rulling over Venedi....



Antes tribal name and Venedi tribal name can both origin from same tribal name of Veneti... in fact Jordanes claims that Sclaveni and Antes are from the populous race of Venethi that is now dispersed over many tribes:

(33) In the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36) But on the shore of Ocean, where the floods of the river Vistula empty from three mouths, the Vidivarii dwell, a people gathered out of various tribes. Beyond them the Aesti, a subject race, likewise hold the shore of Ocean. To the south dwell the Acatziri, a very brave tribe ignorant of agriculture, who subsist on their flocks and by hunting. (37) Farther away and above the Sea of Pontus are the abodes of the Bulgares, well known from the wrongs done to them by reason of our oppression.
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html

from what I remember Antes are before Jordanes considered iranian Sarmatians...


genetically, Scirii would be dominantly I2a-Dinaric, with I2a-Dinaric South appearing only after they have lost direct influence over Venedi and gene flow from Scirii towards Venedi has stopped....

Venedi are mix of R1a-M458 (central european and western Slavic branches in http://www.r1a.org/3.htm#2) and eastern Carpatian (most distant common ancestor lived 2600±300 years) and western Carpatian R1a branch (most distant common ancestor lived 1975±450 years ago)

Antes are - related to eastern Carpatian R1a branch (most distant common ancestor lived 2600±300 years)

split of eastern and western Carpatian branches perhaps reflects split of Veneti after being pushed out from Asia Minor... part went to Adriatic coasts and central Europe (west branch originated in this part), part to north Black sea shores (east branch)

R1a-M458 is earlier substrate (prior to Veneti settlement) that I believe originally dwellt in Blakan under name Pelasgians (translated as field people or even sea people).... reason to believe this is that R1a-M458 is by far oldest in Serbia...in fact as old as parent branch is in India....

( most diversity of R1a1a* among Indo-Aryan and Dravidian speakers in India (coalescent time ~14 000 years before present)
(Underhill et al., 2010)

in Serbia R1a1a7-M458 diversity 14 KYA
R1a1a*(xM458) diversity - 11 KYA. )

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22310393?dopt=Abstract



majority of Pelasgians or field people is in my opinion after arrival of Greeks and Illyrians pushed to north and later appeared as Pannonians (or Pannonian plane people) who were (together with Scordisci) in my opinion the Danubian Slavs mentioned in Russian primary chronicle
and I see continuity of the tribal name in the name of Poles - which also means "field people"...

Scordisci were in my opinion Serians living around Danube mentioned by Seneca... they were Scirii with perhaps Celtic elite... and Celtic name ending -disci
I think they were I2a-Din north dominant...

eastern Eurasian branch of R1a is the one I relate to spread of "sea peoples" ("sea people" also moved via land, but name is in my opinion also related to Dogon/Dagon/Dajbog worship as Dogon is water/sea creature) and ancient big state of Serians..the state of Zeruiani that was so big that all Slavic people come from it......that state was in fact set of strategic settlements along trade routes for silk and spices....e.g. in Seres in north west China silk was produced.and in wider sense Seres was an arch from there to India over Pakistan and Avganistan areas.....

Serian is not about origin dominantly...it is about culture related to Dagon worship....

Karlovac rodoslov writes that all Serbs have in past worshiped Dagon
""All Serbs worshipped Dagon. From Dagon the Dagonians and Dacians received their names; From Ser, all the Serbs."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlovački_Rodoslov


Ser is wife of Dagon... from her comes tribal name Serians...

Dagon was worshiped by Israel tribe of Asher... and also in Syria...

I believe that this worship starts on Danube coasts with Vinca culture and is spread to middle east with "sea peoples" if not earlier.... Danube is also named Ishtar... both names are related to ancient river godess...


Dagan's wife was in some sources the goddess Shala (also named as wife of Adad and sometimes identified with Ninlil). In other texts, his wife isIshara.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagon

Ishara was worshiped by Hurrians and Syrians (curious coincidence with Scirii and Hirri, isn't it?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishara
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishtar

it is goddess of war, love and magic...related to river...

in my opinion it is same goddess as mother/river goddess as indian and irish Danu (also known as Asura) and was in Slavic tribes transformed into Zorya ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorya ) while Dagon became Dajbog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dajbog)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danu_(Irish_goddess)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danu_(Asura)
 
This white Serb/white Croat/white insert nationality here is repeated so frequently that it must mean something.

Could this tie into Merlin and his prediction of the Red side beating the White side in the British Isles? What if the Red represented haplogroup R (or more specifically R1b) and the White represented haplogroup I?

Kind of makes you ponder...
 
This white Serb/white Croat/white insert nationality here is repeated so frequently that it must mean something.
white is proposed to mean west as in iranic/steppes people sides of the world were represented with colors...
white= west, black = north, red = south, and not sure green or brown or yellow = east

Belarus = white (belo) + Russian

but I think in Slavic people it is related to Venedi...
as there is no mention of other colors except white


also, De administrando imperio says that both Serbs and Croat in their states of white Croatia and white Serbia were also known as "white"

so I believe that Venedi may have be interpreted as Celtic *wendo = white
Scirii and Hirri were by some counted in tribes of Venedi
and Belarus may be Venedi Russians

Could this tie into Merlin and his prediction of the Red side beating the White side in the British Isles? What if the Red represented haplogroup R (or more specifically R1b) and the White represented haplogroup I?

Kind of makes you ponder...
never heard of this prophecy..but in Merlin's times genetic picture of UK was pretty much the same as now...
white and red is division in Russia between royalist and communist armies in civil war that started in year 1917...
so maybe prophecy means that in some future UK will adopt some kind of communism...
 
eastern Eurasian branch of R1a is the one I relate to spread of "sea peoples" ("sea people" also moved via land, but name is in my opinion also related to Dogon/Dagon/Dajbog worship as Dogon is water/sea creature) and ancient big state of Serians..the state of Zeruiani that was so big that all Slavic people come from it......that state was in fact set of strategic settlements along trade routes for silk and spices....e.g. in Seres in north west China silk was produced.and in wider sense Seres was an arch from there to India over Pakistan and Avganistan areas....
.
Sherdana is name double related to Ser(Istar,Ishar) / Danu
in my reconstruction they start conquest from Balkan and Black sea shores...

puzzling thought related to this is that ancient DNA of Thrace is closest to the one of Sardinians...

Sherdana and other sea peoples have in my opinion spread to middle eastern Eurasian branch of R1a and some I2a that is predating I2a Dinaric....
http://www.r1a.org/3.htm#11

those sea peoples might have spread PIE languages all the way to India... it can be noticed that they tend to spread on sea coasts and on strategic positions of trade routes...

I think tribal name of Kurds is derived from Sherdana, and name of their biggest tribe Sorani is about Serians which is as I said about cultural issue related in ancient times to worship of Dogon and his wife Ser
also some tribes of Israel in my opinion origin from sea peoples conquest....


again in Strabo's time for areas of Cappadocia settled now with Kurds he says both tribes belong to white Syrians where Syrians for him is same as Assyrians..

as I said Syrians is beyond origin and langage...it was religious term

note that Veneti were kicked from north most part of Asia minor (Paphlagonia - south shores of Black sea) because they participated in a conquest that I tend to identify with "sea peoples" movement because it falls into same time frame...

so white Syrians may be Veneti Syrians...

I think that Veneti spoke language closest to the one of Balts, and this language seems to be closest to the PIE of all European languages...

later Venedi of central and east Europe shifted to Slavic under the influence of Danubian Slavs who settled among them and were merged in west Slavs of today....

Dagon is "fish-god" - sea/water deity
his followers are logically "sea peoples"

R1a-M458 is earlier substrate (prior to Veneti settlement) that I believe originally dwellt in Blakan under name Pelasgians (translated as field people or even sea people).... reason to believe this is that R1a-M458 is by far oldest in Serbia...in fact as old as parent branch is in India....

( most diversity of R1a1a* among Indo-Aryan and Dravidian speakers in India (coalescent time ~14 000 years before present)
(Underhill et al., 2010)

in Serbia R1a1a7-M458 diversity 14 KYA
R1a1a*(xM458) diversity - 11 KYA. )

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22310393?doptbstract

majority of Pelasgians or field people is in my opinion after arrival of Greeks and Illyrians pushed to north and later appeared as Pannonians (or Pannonian plane people) who were (together with Scordisci) in my opinion the Danubian Slavs mentioned in Russian primary chronicle
and I see continuity of the tribal name in the name of Poles - which also means "field people"...

Scordisci were in my opinion Serians living around Danube mentioned by Seneca... they were Scirii with perhaps Celtic elite... and Celtic name ending -disci
I think they were I2a-Din north dominant...

this is based on Russian primary chronicle and Dalmil's chronicle
Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known
by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by
the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these
same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs
attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and
made their homes by the Vistula, and were then called Lyakhs. Of these same Lyakhs some were
called Polyanians, some Lutichians, some Mazovians, and still others Pomorians.

http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/218/PVL-selections.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle

I think this refers to Pannonians, Dalmatians and Scordisci
Pannonians were in my opinion already speaking proto-Slavic as among them is tribe Oseriates living on Plitvice lake complex and Oseriates = lake in Slavic languages and in fact only in Slavic languages
(jezero in south and west Slavic and ozero in east Slavic)

Russian primary chronicle says that Vlakhs (Roman empire) caused these people to migrate to Vistula region...
this must have happened in 1st century AD, when Seneca speaks of Serians that rule over scattered Scythians..

scattered Scytians would be about Venedi, and I think Slavic language was adopted by Venedi in period from 1st century AD to 4th century AD....

R-M458 and I2a-Din of these Danubian Slavs was imposed over previous eastern and western Carpatian R1a originating from Veneti

prior to that the language of Venedi was probably alike Baltic languages...

Dalmil's chronicle says Czechs originated from Poles in land of Croatia that is in serbian language
but it also says that land of these Serbs was stretching from Greeks to Rome...

which is in accordance with Russian primary chronicle and points out that proto-Slavs were Pannonians, Dalmatians and Scordisci...

Scordisci may have been celticized or with celtic elite, and for Dalmatians we know that at some point in history they were also thought to have been celticized

on this point I am interested whether language of Pelasgians (who were I believe R-M458 people) had elements of early proto-Slavic or is it the case that they adopted proto-Slavic much later as Pannonians through their contact with Scirii/ Scordisci...
Dalmil's chronicle suggests that Poles lived in area of Serbian language...so I think Pelasgian was not proto-Slavic but may have contributed to vocabulary..
 
white is proposed to mean west as in iranic/steppes people sides of the world were represented with colors...
white= west, black = north, red = south, and not sure green or brown or yellow = east

Belarus = white (belo) + Russian

but I think in Slavic people it is related to Venedi...
as there is no mention of other colors except white


also, De administrando imperio says that both Serbs and Croat in their states of white Croatia and white Serbia were also known as "white"

so I believe that Venedi may have be interpreted as Celtic *wendo = white
Scirii and Hirri were by some counted in tribes of Venedi
and Belarus may be Venedi Russians


never heard of this prophecy..but in Merlin's times genetic picture of UK was pretty much the same as now...
white and red is division in Russia between royalist and communist armies in civil war that started in year 1917...
so maybe prophecy means that in some future UK will adopt some kind of communism...
"but I think in Slavic people it is related to Venedi..."
You can thinc what you will,but there are other interpretations as well (not mine).One of them says:venedi were finnugric people.The history of the name venedi (of indoeuropean origin) is quite interesting.Finnish venno=friend,estonian vend=brother,komi von=brother,udmurtian vin=younger brother.The west slavs ocupied the theritorry of veneds,and got their name.
 
"but I think in Slavic people it is related to Venedi..."
You can thinc what you will,but there are other interpretations as well (not mine).One of them says:venedi were finnugric people.The history of the name venedi (of indoeuropean origin) is quite interesting.Finnish venno=friend,estonian vend=brother,komi von=brother,udmurtian vin=younger brother.The west slavs ocupied the theritorry of veneds,and got their name.

if you want to use Finish and Baltic to deny relation of "veni/veno/vena" to Slavic people, first use google translate and type names of Slavic nations closest to them
Finish:
Russia = Venä
Belarus - Valko-Venä
valko = white

Estonian:
Russia = Venemaa
Belarus = Valgevene
valge = white

you would do better to use Latvian and Lithuanian !!
Latvian
whte = Balts
Russian = Krievija
Belarus = Baltkrievija

Lithuanian
Russia = Rusija
Belarus = Baltarusija
white = Balt


this is exactly what I am telling
Venedi (celtic *Wendo = white) were originally speaking Baltic
Venedi = white = Balt

but with settlement of Danubian Slavs from Pannonia (Russian primary chronicle) among them in area along Vistula river, part of them has accepted Serbian or proto-Slavic language....

hence, Seneca in 1st century AD speaks of Serians that rule over scattered Scythians
and Czech chronicle of origin (Dalmil's chronicle) speaks about first Czech being born in land of Croats inside Serbian language area...


also R-458 is not really present in Balts, because it comes to Venedi together with settlement wave from Pannonia (Danubian Slavs described in Russian primary chronicle)

nor is I2a-Din of Serians present in Balts...
because Danubian Slavs settled around Vistula and not in lands where now Lithuania, Letonia and Estonia are located

note that neither R1a-M458 nor I2a-Din are really present outside of east Europe
they didnot come from Asia
they came to Vltava area from Pannonia, from Balkan...
R1a-M458 is estimated to be ancient old in Serbia...

genetically original Veneti/Venedi are east and west carpathian R1a
http://www.r1a.org/3.htm#7

I am considering that Veneti are same as Scythians...
before arrival of Sarmatians they lived from Baltic to Thrace and along north shores of Black sea... note that Thracian words bare more resemblance to Lithuanian than to modern Slavic languages....

also Seneca says Serians that rule over scattered Scythians....Scythians are scattered because they were beaten in Russia and Ukraine by Sarmatians....




note that in my opinion Antes were also of Veneti but probably had Sarmatian elite for long times...when Veneti were kicked out of Asia Minor, some of them settled along north shores of Black sea (giving Anti) and had only eastern branch of Carpathian R1a...
while west carpathian, north carpathian and baltic carpathian R1a have developed after this split within Veneti who moved to central Europe... those were Venedi that spoke Balto-Slavic (=Baltic)

only in 1st century AD with settlement of Danubian Slavs (R-M458 Pannonians and I2a-Din Serians (Scirii (&Hirri?)) among them around Vistula river, core of Venedi changes language (its not drastic change though as those were related languages) and partially also genetic structure




Estonian:
Latvia = Läti
Lithuania = Leedu

Finish:
Latvia = Latvia
Lithuania = Liettua

For Estonian and Finish, Venedi name is transfered to Slavic people because those are Venedi they were into contact with...irrelevant for the fact that language of that Venedi was shifted from Balto-Slavic (= Baltic more or less) to Slavic (Serbian language according to clue given n Dalmil's chronicle)

but for Latvians Russians are Krievija which is derived from Slavic tribe closest to them Krivichi...
why not Venedi? because they were also Venedi...

483px-East_Slavic_tribes_peoples_8th_9th_century.jpg
 
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white is proposed to mean west as in iranic/steppes people sides of the world were represented with colors...
white= west, black = north, red = south, and not sure green or brown or yellow = east

never heard of this prophecy..but in Merlin's times genetic picture of UK was pretty much the same as now...

I'm familiar with the color configuration of the Old World, but it doesn't always match up the way it should if that's what these old tribes are basing their legends on.

Check out how the white dragon represented the Anglo-Saxons and the red dragon represented the Welsh. You are correct in noting the genetic situation of the British Isles is pretty much consistent with how it looked back then (R1b heavy Welsh and more German/Norse on the southeast side of the island.) That's why I'm thinking the colors don't match the points of the compass.

But this does seem to be a theme that repeats throughout European history.

White Russians
White Croats
White Serbs
White dragon representing the Anglo-Saxons

I admit this completely off the wall... interesting connections though.
 
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That's why I'm thinking the colors don't match the points of the compass.
i think that in case of Slavs "white" = mixed with Venedi that is with people who origin from Balts (Balt = white in Lithuanian and Latvian, Wendo = white in Celtic)
 
In each of these examples there is a sizable component of hg I. And the Baltic wording actually helps my arguement.

How Yes No, I'm laughing as I type this because we both have some unorthodox ideas and I'm sure there are a few more traditional posters that are pulling their hair out reading our exchange.
 
"but I think in Slavic people it is related to Venedi..."
You can thinc what you will,but there are other interpretations as well (not mine).One of them says:venedi were finnugric people.The history of the name venedi (of indoeuropean origin) is quite interesting.Finnish venno=friend,estonian vend=brother,komi von=brother,udmurtian vin=younger brother.The west slavs ocupied the theritorry of veneds,and got their name.

do not bother replying to yes and no , his agenda is;
1 - serbs created slavic language
2 - All R1a are slavs
3 - Slavic is older than germanic
4 - mixes venedi with veneti indicating same people
5 - baltic race was originally slavic
6 - russians are slavs ethnically even though russians say they are not
7 - Believes Jordanes and his fabricated lies,
8 - claims sarmatians, alans, roxlani, antes and scythians are all slavs
etc etc

He starts history at he time of the roman empire ( as if nothing was before this ) and has always failed to clarify a tribal name for slav from BC times......Ask him to name one tribe from pliny or any other historian times to reference as being slav - he cannot

Fails to understand that Kvens, Vends, Vendae are finnic or baltic peoples


IMO the truly original and only tribe I found to be slav is the Carpi and even with this I am unsure
 

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