hope
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Good link, zanipolo.
Ostrogoths could not speak Gothic language while inhabiting territory of today's Ukraine and Belarus simply because Gothic language would be totally useless there. If Ostrogoths were Goths, you would find today some I2 in Sweden.
What about I2b?Germanic tribes existed before Slavic tribes! Ancient Germanic tribes = R1b + I1 + R1a. With all due respect but Slavic peoples don't have any (ancient) history at all. According to me, people in Eastern Europe started unifying with each other and started to share common region, culture and language with each other after I2a +R1a got mixed with each other. Slavic peoples = I2a + R1a. Germanic peoples R1b + I1 + R1a.
It's more 'northwest' than 'southeast' European right? According to me I2b coexisted together with I1. I2b is from West Germany, native to that region.What about I2b?
some arguments about disputed origin of Scirii taken from explanation added to Tacitus book Germania
http://books.google.nl/books?id=M1cOAAAAQAAJ&dq=scirii%20alans%20germanic%20turkic&pg=RA1-PR97#v=onepage&q=scirii%20alans%20germanic%20turkic&f=false
1) Olbian inscription mentions Scirii together with Galatai
2) Procopius joins them with Goths and Alans
3) Jordanes puts them among Alans...("Scirii et Satagarii and other Alans")
4) names of their two known leaders are Germanic, which may indicate germanic origin/influence or rulling elite
5) there were Sciri as far as Bavaria!!!
6) turcilingi tribe with tribal name suggesting turkic origin was either part of Scirii or closely related tribe.... which together with Aspar name of one tribal chefs in times of Hun domination, and weird idea that Alans are turkic is used as a basis for speculations that they are turkic...
7) Scirii have waged war against Goths relying on help from Sarmatians..
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conclusion:
I think turcilingi = turkic speakers (turci + lingua) and is part of tribe used for communication with their turkic allies...
also Alans are iranian (sarmatian) tribe and not turkic....
two tribal chiefs with germanic names may be due to being somewhat subjugated or influenced culturally by Goths...it can be as well about distant germanic origin
germanic tribe is not likely to launch surprise attack on Goths and to rely on Sarmatians for help....
Jordanes is best source due to his origin and functions he did, and he place them among Alans....
origin from Sarmatians covers well all 7 statements above, while germanic or turkic origin cover well at most one or two...
however, Seneca states that they live among Sarmatians unguarded from them....
this indicates that they are not Sarmatians....
So, I believe Serians/Scirians/Scirii were race for itself and not part of germanic, sarmatian or turkic stock
i think Serians are original bearers of proto-Slavic language and of I2a-dinaric group...
Germanic tribes existed before Slavic tribes! Ancient Germanic tribes = R1b + I1 + R1a. With all due respect but Slavic peoples don't have any (ancient) history at all. According to me, people in Eastern Europe started unifying with each other and started to share common region, culture and language with each other after I2a +R1a got mixed with each other. Slavic peoples = I2a + R1a. Germanic peoples R1b + I1 + R1a.
stop drinking so much
....
What role do you think the Antes played (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antes_people) ? For now I speculate that Slavs are of 80% baltic and 20% antic origin, whereas Antes are inanian speaking and genetically close to certain Caucasian tribes. Could it be that south slavs are more related to Antes, whereas northern slavs tend to be antizised (slavicised?) balts. The migration map of antes could perhaps fit I2-Din.
Thanks!
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html(33) In the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36) But on the shore of Ocean, where the floods of the river Vistula empty from three mouths, the Vidivarii dwell, a people gathered out of various tribes. Beyond them the Aesti, a subject race, likewise hold the shore of Ocean. To the south dwell the Acatziri, a very brave tribe ignorant of agriculture, who subsist on their flocks and by hunting. (37) Farther away and above the Sea of Pontus are the abodes of the Bulgares, well known from the wrongs done to them by reason of our oppression.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagon
white is proposed to mean west as in iranic/steppes people sides of the world were represented with colors...This white Serb/white Croat/white insert nationality here is repeated so frequently that it must mean something.
never heard of this prophecy..but in Merlin's times genetic picture of UK was pretty much the same as now...Could this tie into Merlin and his prediction of the Red side beating the White side in the British Isles? What if the Red represented haplogroup R (or more specifically R1b) and the White represented haplogroup I?
Kind of makes you ponder...
.eastern Eurasian branch of R1a is the one I relate to spread of "sea peoples" ("sea people" also moved via land, but name is in my opinion also related to Dogon/Dagon/Dajbog worship as Dogon is water/sea creature) and ancient big state of Serians..the state of Zeruiani that was so big that all Slavic people come from it......that state was in fact set of strategic settlements along trade routes for silk and spices....e.g. in Seres in north west China silk was produced.and in wider sense Seres was an arch from there to India over Pakistan and Avganistan areas....
R1a-M458 is earlier substrate (prior to Veneti settlement) that I believe originally dwellt in Blakan under name Pelasgians (translated as field people or even sea people).... reason to believe this is that R1a-M458 is by far oldest in Serbia...in fact as old as parent branch is in India....
( most diversity of R1a1a* among Indo-Aryan and Dravidian speakers in India (coalescent time ~14 000 years before present)
(Underhill et al., 2010)
in Serbia R1a1a7-M458 diversity 14 KYA
R1a1a*(xM458) diversity - 11 KYA. )
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22310393?doptbstract
majority of Pelasgians or field people is in my opinion after arrival of Greeks and Illyrians pushed to north and later appeared as Pannonians (or Pannonian plane people) who were (together with Scordisci) in my opinion the Danubian Slavs mentioned in Russian primary chronicle
and I see continuity of the tribal name in the name of Poles - which also means "field people"...
Scordisci were in my opinion Serians living around Danube mentioned by Seneca... they were Scirii with perhaps Celtic elite... and Celtic name ending -disci
I think they were I2a-Din north dominant...
Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known
by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by
the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these
same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs
attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and
made their homes by the Vistula, and were then called Lyakhs. Of these same Lyakhs some were
called Polyanians, some Lutichians, some Mazovians, and still others Pomorians.
"but I think in Slavic people it is related to Venedi..."white is proposed to mean west as in iranic/steppes people sides of the world were represented with colors...
white= west, black = north, red = south, and not sure green or brown or yellow = east
Belarus = white (belo) + Russian
but I think in Slavic people it is related to Venedi...
as there is no mention of other colors except white
also, De administrando imperio says that both Serbs and Croat in their states of white Croatia and white Serbia were also known as "white"
so I believe that Venedi may have be interpreted as Celtic *wendo = white
Scirii and Hirri were by some counted in tribes of Venedi
and Belarus may be Venedi Russians
never heard of this prophecy..but in Merlin's times genetic picture of UK was pretty much the same as now...
white and red is division in Russia between royalist and communist armies in civil war that started in year 1917...
so maybe prophecy means that in some future UK will adopt some kind of communism...
"but I think in Slavic people it is related to Venedi..."
You can thinc what you will,but there are other interpretations as well (not mine).One of them says:venedi were finnugric people.The history of the name venedi (of indoeuropean origin) is quite interesting.Finnish venno=friend,estonian vend=brother,komi von=brother,udmurtian vin=younger brother.The west slavs ocupied the theritorry of veneds,and got their name.
white is proposed to mean west as in iranic/steppes people sides of the world were represented with colors...
white= west, black = north, red = south, and not sure green or brown or yellow = east
never heard of this prophecy..but in Merlin's times genetic picture of UK was pretty much the same as now...
i think that in case of Slavs "white" = mixed with Venedi that is with people who origin from Balts (Balt = white in Lithuanian and Latvian, Wendo = white in Celtic)That's why I'm thinking the colors don't match the points of the compass.
"but I think in Slavic people it is related to Venedi..."
You can thinc what you will,but there are other interpretations as well (not mine).One of them says:venedi were finnugric people.The history of the name venedi (of indoeuropean origin) is quite interesting.Finnish venno=friend,estonian vend=brother,komi von=brother,udmurtian vin=younger brother.The west slavs ocupied the theritorry of veneds,and got their name.