Serbs and Croats origin from Germanic Scirii and Hirri?

well, let me point out the following from the link that you have used:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vends

Existence of Vends is in fact proof that tribal name Venedi is not Balt related.

Because those Vends:
1) are small tribe surrounded by Baltic and Finnish
2) they feel jeopardised from Balts and Finnish and allie with Germans
3) name of their town is completely changed when it was overtaken by Balts, suggesting that name Vend was completely foreign to Balts

the glotochronolgy shows that .Bulgarian is estimated to separate from proto Slavic around 130AD and east Slavic at 270 AD..method shows that serbo-croat branch splits from west Slavic around 670 AD which fits with known historical facts....
[Starostin, presented in Santa Fe, 2004]

Baltic languages are very similar to Balto-Slavic and Slavic languages start of like dialect of this language
this implies that Baltic community has continued living in isolation, while proto-Slavic area was exposed to interaction with tribes of different languages and was therefore changing faster....

furthermore east Slavic (language of Anti) spliting from proto-Slavic branch as early as 250 AD tells us that Slavs were at that time already in central Europe....

So, Venedi = proto-Slavs
and I believe they have migrated to central Europe from Pannonia and Balkan as Russian primary chronicle and Dalmil's chronicle suggest... as this migration was caused by spreading of Roman empire, we can set the time frame of the movement to the beginnng of first century AD or somewhat earlier

as I have explained, this is in genetics represented with displacement of R1-M458 out of its high diversity area (ex-Yugoslavia) and with appearence of I2a-Din in Venedi and Sarmatian area but not in Baltic areas...

considering that Antes have somewhat different tribal names but still with recognizable derivation from original tribal name Veneti, we can postulate that Ants lived north of Danube near Black sea coast even before Danubian Slavs moved to north... they spoke the same language with Danubian Slavs suggesting that there was continuity of proto-Slavs along Danube (that is north of it in east parts) for long period of time ....

this fits well with Jordanes saying all of early Slavs (Venedi, Sclaveni and Antes) are from Venethi race...
and with account of Russian primary chronicle saying


the only reason you try so much to undermine Venethi origin of Slavic people, is that it rightfully puts strong question mark on who were actually Illyrians...

I am fine with idea that they were not proto-Slavic, but I believe their actual spread was never more north from Montenegro...


LOL, old theories still persist

read link on what the fabricated venethi is
http://www.academia.edu/227794/Hiding_behind_a_piece_of_tapestry_Jordanes_and_the_Slavic_Venethi
 

I assure you it is not sophism, but it can be fallacy to some extent.

I would like to use opportunity to apologize to Albanians for my paranoia about certain forum members being so against recognizing that Slavs are of Venethi race due to possible link of Venethi and Illyrians...Well, I am from Serbia and after events in 90s people from Serbia tend to be paranoic about conspiracies against them and the truth.

Regarding Albanians, I believe that modern Albanian language stems mostly from the language of Dardanians who have escaped romanisation by moving to the mountains of northern Albania during Roman empire. While there must be considerable Illyrian genetics in Albania proper, I think that trying to link Albanian language to Illyrian is fallacy. Reason to think so is that from dozen of Illyrian words whose meaning is captured in acient texts most have nothing to do with Albanan. Since Illyrians lived on sea coasts that were covered with Roman empire settlements, I think those people were romanized and the language was lost...

now, let me explain my reasoning about Slavic people and than we can together try to determine where is fallacy in my thinking....

1) Bavarian geographer says that state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it...

For me this is a clue that search for Slavic origin should be directed towards Zeruiani who are either proto-Slavs or their overlords... but who are they? if their state is big it must be recorded in history

2) Seneca speaks of Serians with description that gives impression of giant state all over Euroasia. Now Serians and Zeruiani is easily same tribal name recorded in German and Latin...

3) Seneca mentions that they are for fleece famous, which relates them to Seres area of northwest China and arc from that place to India....this is ancient trading route... so we can confirm Serians in Asia

4) Seneca mention Serians in relation to Danube and rulling over scattered Scythians
rulling over scattered Scythians would easily pinpoint to Sarmatians, which would fit nice with Jordanes claiming that Scirii (Scirians) are Alans (=Sarmatians)

5) but Seneca says they live also in Caucaus unguarded from Sarmatians
this means they are not Sarmatians but perhaps related to them or allied with them...
we also know that Scirii attack Goths and expect Sarmatians to help them, but since such help doesnot arrive they are in Black sea area almost destroyed by Goths

6) Dalmil's chronicle says that Czechs origin from Poles who lived in Croatia that is a land in Serbian language area, from this I made link that perhaps Serians = Serbs.. Serboi and also Siraces tribes are captured in Caucasus just northeast and northwest of Alani, which explains why they may be seen as Alans

7) Serians around Danube and Serians rulling over scattered Scythians are puzzle....
only big tribes with related names are Scordisci on Danube and Scirii close to Venedi
so I have assumed that Scirii (and perhaps Scordisc) are those Serians

8) Russian primary chronicle says early Slavs lived along Danube and moved to Vistula region due to spreading of Roman empire and it explicitly names Serbs and Croats among those tribes...

9) along Danube in that time are Scordisci and they didnot stay there as Strabo says
The Scordisci lived along the Ister and were divided into two tribes called the Great Scordisci and the Little Scordisci. The former lived between two rivers that empty into the Ister — the Noarus,342 which flows past Segestica, and the Margus343 (by some called the Bargus), whereas the Little Scordisci lived on the far side of this river,344 and their territory bordered on that of the Triballi and the Mysi.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7E*.html


so, he says they lived along Danube...
thus, Scordisci might be among people that Russian primary chronicle mentions moving from Danube to Vistula area and thus giving Scirii...

10) Karlovac rodoslov says that Serbs worshiped Dagon and that Dacians got their name after Dagon, Serbs got their name after Ser. Now this implies that Serbs are Serians. But who is Ser?

Ser is wife of Dagon, and from what I can see known in mythology under names Isthar, Ishara, Danu (Asura) and i think in Slavic mythology Dagon and Ser are transformed to Dajbog and Zorya...

curiously Ishara is in Asia worshiped by Hurrians and Syrians...
while we have same worship in Serbs that I link to Sciri and Hirri

Danube is linked to this river goddess, both via name origin from Danu and in its old name Ishtar.... so it makes sense that early Serbs lived around Danube as Russian primary chronicle states



11) I2a-Din south is young branch and unlike I2a-Din north that is spread accross east Europe, it only exists in Serb settled areas, in Bohemia from where Serbs came to Serbia, and hotspots in two locations around Vistula - upper and lower Vistula which does match supposed settlemt areas of Scirii....

also biggest hotspot of I2a-Din is Galicia, clearly named after Galatians or Celts
Scordisci are also known as Galatae according to Strabo...


12) so far so good.....but Scordisci are Celtic speakers, Scirii is not celtic tribal name...
and west Slavs according to Dalmil's chronicle live in area of Serbian language...

13) furthermore, trade routes in Asia that match locations of Serians are related to eastern euroasian R1a and not to I2a-Din....

14) furthermore, Scirii are of disputed origin - mentioned as Goths, Alani, turkic... as I explained Alani (Sarmatian) makes most sense... but according to Seneca, Serians dare to live unguarded among Sarmatians which implies they are not Sarmatians..

15) who are Scytians that Seneca's Serians rulle over?
if Serians are Scirii than they might have rulled over Venedi...
but are Venedi same people as Scythians? and what is their language Baltic or proto-Slavic....

16) chroncicle of priest Dukljanin says Serbs and Croats are Goths in origin...it also says that Bulgarians were big settlement wave that spoke the same language

17) language study of common Slavic words in Slavic languages shows that Bulgarian split from common Slavic around 130 AD, while east Slavic separated around 270 AD and Serbo-Croat split from west Slavic around 670 AD...

18) I have tried to explain it with genetics...
Venedi and Antes would origin from Carpathian branches of R1a

people moving from Danube area to Vistula would bring R1a-M458 (exclusively European branch and ancient old in Serbia) and I2a-Din... and would affect language....
but it may have been other way around as well, that new settlers accepted the language of people they settled among....

so, somewhere in points 12-18 I got lost in making a theory....as there was too much contradicting data
 
how yes no 3;406149 Regarding Albanians said:
One of the only things I agree with you on.


The moderator ( IF HE EXISTS) I am still waiting for my notes to be placed..........has ruined my notes to you.
Anyway, I really, really do not understand why you ignore the logical people called the Bastanae as proto-slav, they lived nearly exactly where the current slavic historian say is the original slavic homeland.......what have you got against this.?
 
One of the only things I agree with you on.


The moderator ( IF HE EXISTS) I am still waiting for my notes to be placed..........has ruined my notes to you.
Anyway, I really, really do not understand why you ignore the logical people called the Bastanae as proto-slav, they lived nearly exactly where the current slavic historian say is the original slavic homeland.......what have you got against this.?

Bastarnae are way too small tribe...
they are not influential nor strong enough nor culturally developed enough to impose the language to so many people......so Bastarnae may be among proto-Slavic people, but not the key core of them...

it must be a tribe with large state and Bavarian geographer leaves data that the state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it... and this large state is to certain extent confirmed by Seneca's accounts of Serians in large areas of Europe and Asia... so, Serians/Zeruiani are in my opinion key to Slavic origin...
Karlovac geneaology (rodoslov) expalins that all Serbs worshiped Dagon and related to that were named after Ser, which also pinpoints to Serians..
but could Serians have been the same tribal name as Scirii/Scirians (linguistically this is the same logic as roman historians writing Sloveni as Sclaveni)...and would Serians be overlords of proto-Slavic people or among proto-Slavic people....

playing word associations....
if Scirii and Hirri would be origin of tribal names of to Serbs and Croats, Bastarnae could be origin of Bosnian name...
but even I do not think its very likely...

I am curious whether Dacians ...
note that if we look genetics of Romanians, it is very close to the one of Serbs....

Karlovac rodoslov says

"All Serbs worshipped Dagon. From Dagon the Dagonians and Dacians received their names; From Ser, all the Serbs.""


such a statement suggests some relation of Serbs with Dacians, at least regarding religion...
but it also clearly sets them apart

to me it makes sense that Ser people (people who worship Ishtar/Ishara/Ser/Asura/Danu) live around the river named after Danu/Asura/Ser/IshtarIshara...
this river is Danube...
and that Dacians live near them....


in lower Danube on one coast are Dacians on other are Thracians and Scordisci
in upper Danube Scordisci are on both sides and Dacians are their neighbours...

.. among Thracians is also tribe with name Serdi that comes to them from area of Scordisci.... Scordisci are Celts....that origin from Boii and De administrando imperio says that Serbs come from land that they in own language call Boiki (and that based on further description can be only Bohemia where another I2a-Din south hotspot is together with set of place names containing Srby) where they have also originally dwellt..

furthermore if Serian is about religion...how would you call Boii that are Serians by religion
perhaps Serian Boii or SerBoii?


also -dava endings of Dacian towns makes me curious...
tvdjava in serbo-croat = fortress, stronghold
which could be coin word from tvrd(strong) + dava

but fortress in other Slavic languages
kreposti - russian
forteca- ukrainian
krepasci - belarus
pevnost - slovak & czech
twierdza - polish
trdnjava - slovenian


regarding polish ending -dza, diza is thracian word for fortiified settlement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language

so, polish have thracian ending -diza
serbs and croats dacian ending - dava
slovenians have ending -njava or -dnjava

and in other languages it is completely different - in ukrainian its loan word perhaps from Vikings... that founded Kievan Rus state in teritory of Ukraine...

now time for
some word associations:

before reading be aware that the place names named after tribes are never found in mid of their living space but a bit further from its borders, where their settlements stand out by their ethnicity...

in west most Dacia in Banat region there was stronghold Zuridava, which could be Seri(an) dava (Serian fortress) as Karlovac rodoslov sets Serbs as named after Ser and related in some way to Dacians...


the Danish philologist and historian Gudmund Schütte to assume that Ziridava and Zurobara are one and the same.[7] This idea is deemed erroneous alongside with many other assumed duplications of names, by the Romanian historian and archaeologistVasile Pârvan in his work Getica.[8] Pârvan reviewed all localities mentioned in Ptolemy's Geographia, analyzing and verifying all data available to him at the time. He points out that Ziri and Zuro (meaning water) are the roots of two different Geto-Dacianwords.[9]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziridava

Ziri means water in Dacian
and Ser or Ishara or Istar or Danu (Asura) is water goddess in indo-european and middle east religions...

Zurobara (Greek: Ζουρόβαρα) was a Dacian town located in today's Banat region in Romania.
...
Unlike many other Dacian towns mentioned by Ptolemy, Zurobara is missing from Tabula Peutingeriana (1st–4th century AD), an itinerarium showing the cursus publicus, the road network in the Roman Empire.[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zurobara

it may have been missing because perhaps people who lived in area moved elsewhere (perhaps to Vistula according to Russian primary chronicle)... note that Strabo says how Scordisci lived along Danube...


Zurobara name (that could have been a spelling variant for Zuropara[8]) was interpreted initially as "strong city" where: the ending term of name "bara" / "vara" means ‘city’ (the same as Thracian "para") and the first term of the name "Zuro" means ‘strong’ . Zuro ‘strong’ is also found in the name of Zyraxes, a Dacian king,.[9][10]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zurobara

now this is Dacian town far from Thrace but with Thracian ending?
or maybe settlement of Zuro people..
"bara" is used in Slavic for swamp
and there are place names where "bara" is second word

so maybe this is not fortified place, but a settlement near swamp...
so, perhaps, Zurobara = Serian swamp



hence, we can conceive that somewhere near west Dacia were perhaps people with tribal name Zuro/Ziri...

Zyraxes was a Getae king who ruled north Dobruja in the 1st century BC.His capital, Genucla was besieged by the Romans in 28 BC, but he managed to escape and flee to his Scythian allies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zyraxes

TheGetae (Greek: Γέται, singular Γέτης; Bulgarian: Гети; Romanian: Geţi, singular Get) was the name given by the Greeks to several Thracian tribes inhabiting the regions to either side of the Lower Danube, in what is today northern Bulgaria and Romania.
...
Strabo, one of the first ancient sources to mention Getae and Dacians, stated in his Geographica (ca. 7 BC-20 AD) that the Dacians lived in the western parts of Dacia, "towards Germania and the sources of the Danube", and the Getae in the eastern parts, towards the Black Sea, both south and north of the Danube.[1] The ancient geographer also wrote that the Dacians and Getae spoke the same language[2], after stating the same about Getae and Thracians.[3]

so, Getae, Dacians and Thracians speak the same language according to Strabo...

could Dacians have been the Scythians that Serians rule over...Scythia is name used for teritory of Ukraine though and often for people living in that area regardless of their origin....so maybe this was about Galicia area probably named after some Celtic people....note that Galicia is probably largest hotspot of I2a-Din


if Scordisci are Ser - people and resulted in Scirii when they moved to Vistula and tribal name SerBoii later, questions is who gave them Slavic language and when?

because Dalmil's chronicle suggests that it is Serbian language that Poles, Czechs and Croats speak.....
so either Dalmil's chronicle is wrong or Scordisci accepted language prior to mixing with west Slavs....
 
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and who are original Serians/Zeruiani/Zoryans (Slavic name of Ser is Zorya) ? the ones who were holding trading routes in Asia are not I2a-Din but R1a branch that in my opinion set of from Europe in times as far as sea people conquest...and first settles in Kurdish area and from there spreads to Syria and to south to red sea and persian gulf and to east to reach northwest China and Kyrgyz area around 1000BC and make there silk producing area known as Seres that besides northwest China also includied arc to India ....in my opinion those original Serians were spreading the Ser/Asura/Danu/Ishtar/Ishara worship to Asia....and were PIE people setting the basis of PIE religion....
http://r1a.org/3.htm#11

has Seneca speaking of Serians based it on same tribal name or he had data that Serians of Asia and Serians of Europe were same Serians (same language and culture)?

what if their common name is a remain from PIE people times and there is no connection between Serians of Asia and Europe?
 
"also biggest hotspot of I2a-Din is Galicia, clearly named after Galatians or Celts
Scordisci are also known as Galatae according to Strabo..."
"The Ukrainian name Halych (Галич) (Halicz in Polish, Галич in Russian, Galic in Latin) comes from the Khwalis or Kaliz who occupied the area from the time of the Magyars."!The Chalyzians or Khalyzians or Khalis or Khwalis (Arabic: Khwarezmian, Byzantine Greek: Χαλίσιοι, Khalisioi, Magyar: Kaliz (pronounced Kalish)) were a people mentioned by the 12th-century Byzantine historian John Kinnamos.
Kinnamos in his epitome twice mentions Khalisioi in the Hungarian army. He first describes them as practicing Mosaic law; though whether they were actually Jews is unclear. Other editions state that they were Muslims. "
 
Bastarnae are way too small tribe...
they are not influential nor strong enough nor culturally developed enough to impose the language to so many people......so Bastarnae may be among proto-Slavic people, but not the key core of them...

.

LOL..too small, you a joking right!

http://books.google.com.au/books?id...ved=0CDgQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=bastarnae&f=false

they had huge armies, huge territories.

You must be anti-germanic

I can link many posts......... the lands they covered was from east side of the Carpathian mountains to the Dniester river...actually original names of the Carpathians was Monte Bastarnae


powerful naion
http://books.google.com.au/books?id...ved=0CFEQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=bastarnae&f=false
 
"also biggest hotspot of I2a-Din is Galicia, clearly named after Galatians or Celts
Scordisci are also known as Galatae according to Strabo..."
"The Ukrainian name Halych (Галич) (Halicz in Polish, Галич in Russian, Galic in Latin) comes from the Khwalis or Kaliz who occupied the area from the time of the Magyars."!The Chalyzians or Khalyzians or Khalis or Khwalis (Arabic: Khwarezmian, Byzantine Greek: Χαλίσιοι, Khalisioi, Magyar: Kaliz (pronounced Kalish)) were a people mentioned by the 12th-century Byzantine historian John Kinnamos.
Kinnamos in his epitome twice mentions Khalisioi in the Hungarian army. He first describes them as practicing Mosaic law; though whether they were actually Jews is unclear. Other editions state that they were Muslims. "
thanks for info...
I didnot know this... was sure that it ought to be related to Galatea in some way.... guess people see what they want to see and I am not exception there...
 
LOL..too small, you a joking right!

http://books.google.com.au/books?id...ved=0CDgQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=bastarnae&f=false

they had huge armies, huge territories.

You must be anti-germanic

I can link many posts......... the lands they covered was from east side of the Carpathian mountains to the Dniester river...actually original names of the Carpathians was Monte Bastarnae


powerful naion
http://books.google.com.au/books?id...ved=0CFEQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=bastarnae&f=false

if they held large state in that area, than your hypothesis makes sense...

I never heard that Carpathians were called Monte Basternae...
but I know Carpathians were also Montes Serrorum (e.g. in writings of Ammianus Marcellinus) and Harvaða fjöllum (in Viking stories), and that east Carpatians were Montes Sarmatici, while west were Carpataes...and some think current name is derived from Carpi...

but I believe that Russian primary chronicle and Dalmil's chronicle record memory of Slavs living in Danube area prior to moving to Vistula region...

and am still puzzled with Zeruiani whose state was so big that all Slavs come from it and inclined to think that that is where origin of early Slavs needs to be searched for....

I also find curious that Poles use Thracian ending for fortified settlement while Serbs and Croats use Dacian one...

also Jordanes mention of Sclaveni, Venedi and Antes as Venethic race cannot be without any reason...

key issue with early Slavs is pinpointing the source of language....and data regarding that is confusing... maybe Serbian language that Dalmil's chronicle mentions as language of Poles and Croats is not about modern Serbs but about old time PIE speaking Serians which was later adopted to Serbs as according to Karlovac genealogy Serbs derive the tribal name from Ser and are thus Ser people....

if I look for those Serians based on genetics in Asia...it is eastern eurasian R1a (I cannot make clear link there but I think there was also J2 component there as J2 seems to stretches along same area)

this old R1a branch is not (just) Slavic related but older and stretches from UK to India...perhaps those ancient Serians/Zeruiani/Zoryani were overlords of many people and their language gave birth to different peoples and after them for long times there were still tribes in various nations whose name was Dagon worship related and derived from Ser/Asura/Danu/Ishtar/Ishara...

anyway, i came to the point where it is difficult to make clear theory without contradictions...
so, I think its time for me to make some break from guessing and wait for more results from genetic and historical data...
 
"also Jordanes mention of Sclaveni, Venedi and Antes as Venethic race cannot be without any reason..."
I´m sorry,but Jordanes is not a trustworthy source.About Antes:unfortunately such ethnonyms as Antes don´t tell us very much.The Iranian word anta,ossetian aeddae/aendae means (people on the) border/borderer/borderland,margin,outside.
 
"also Jordanes mention of Sclaveni, Venedi and Antes as Venethic race cannot be without any reason..."

I´m sorry,but Jordanes is not a trustworthy source.About Antes:unfortunately such ethnonyms as Antes don´t tell us very much.The Iranian word anta,ossetian aeddae/aendae means (people on the) border/borderer/borderland,margin,outside.

that is actually quite interesting data regarding this topic....

as I wrote before

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27558-origin-of-tribal-names

PIE words related to tribal names of Serbs and Wends and Venedi are:

*uend = turn
*suerb = turn

i was explaining that those tribal names meant "border" people...
because tribal names such as "Wend/Serb/Sorb/Sarban" appear on ends of R1a spread
and have postulated that word *uend is even now preserved in e.g. english as "end"



and related to this it is Slavic custom even today to give names related to "end" to its border people
end = kraj in Slavic

and hence names like:
Ukraine, vojna krajina (military frontier of Austor-Hungarian empire in east parts of what is now Croatia and modern day "srpska krajina" from 90s in that area), Timocka krajina (east most Serbia), Bela Krajina (in Slovenia's region bordering Croatia)....


so,
Antes= border people
Serbs = border people
Wends/Venedi = border people

and all of those gave Slavs... that's curious...
while Sclaveni are in the core surrounded with these people on borders that needs to be defended...

so all together are Sclaveni/Sloveni, which is the name of the core....



original name of the core is perhaps preserved today in Slovenians
(called Slovenci n Slavic languages)

note that Dacians that are not subjugated by Roam empire take name "free Dacians"

in same way "slo" is easily abbreviation from "slobodni" = free
because while border people exist, the core is free...

so,perhaps Slovenci (/sloˈʋeːntsi/) = free venti?

483px-Slavic_peoples_6th_century_historical_map.jpg



Venethi probably had different meaning though

*uent = blowing
*uentos = wind

Jordanes:
Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes.

this "wind" reference always remind me on myth from ancient Greece and Rome about wind gods (Anemoi in Greek, Venti in latin)

Boreas
- north wind
Eurus - east wind
Zephyrus - west wind born in caves of Thrace and his son Carpus
Notus - south wind

let me try to map this myth to ancient tribes...

in caves of Thrace are born Serdi... they were originally Celtic tribe from Scordisci area, but entered Thrace and were thrachanized or born as Thracians there....

Carpus may be Carpi... which are in that case, mapping the relation from the myth above, offspring of Serdi....

most north one Borea would be Buri (Dacian Buri - different from Germanic Buri)...


minor wind gods (little Venti) are

Kaikias was the Greek deity of the northeast wind. He is shown as a bearded man with a shield full of hail-stones, and his name is cognate to the Latin word caecus "blind", that is, he was seen as a "dark" wind. The Roman spelling of Kaikias was Caecius.
Apeliotes, sometimes known to the Romans as Apeliotus, was the Greek deity of the southeast wind. As this wind was thought to cause a refreshing rain particularly beneficial to farmers, he is often depicted wearing gumboots and carrying fruit, draped in a light cloth concealing some flowers or grain. He is cleanshaven, with curly hair and a friendly expression. Because Apeliotes was a minor god, he was often synthesized with Eurus, the east wind.Subsolanus, Apeliotes' Roman counterpart, was also sometimes considered the east wind, in Vulturnus' place.
Skiron, or Skeiron, was the Greek god of the northwest wind. His name is related to Skirophorion, the last of the three months of spring in the Attic festival calendar. He is depicted as a bearded man tilting a cauldron, representing the onset of winter. His Roman counterpart is Caurus, or Corus. Corus was also one of the oldest Roman wind-deities, and numbered among the di indigetes ("indigenous gods"), a group of abstract and largely minor numinousentities.
Lips was the Greek deity of the southwest wind, often depicted holding the stern of a ship. His Roman equivalent was Afer ventus ("African wind"), orAfricus, due to Africa being to the southwest of Italy. This name is thought to be derived from the name of a North African tribe, the Afri.
Other minor wind deities included:

  • Argestes "clearing", a wind blowing from about the same direction as Skiron (Caurus), and probably another name for it
  • Aparctias, sometimes called the north wind instead of Boreas (Septentrionarius)
  • Circius or Thrascius, the north-north-west wind
  • Euronotus, the wind blowing from the direction, as its very name suggests, between Euros and Notos, that is, a south-south-east wind (Euroauster to the Romans)
  • Iapyx, the north-west wind about the same as Caurus
  • Libonotus, the south-south-west wind, known as Austro-Africus to the Romans
  • Meses, another name for the north-west wind
  • Olympias, apparently identified with Skiron/Argestes
  • Phoenicias, another name for the south-east wind ("the one blowing from Phoenicia", due to this land lying to the south-east of Greece)
NE - Kaikias = Caucoense or Cauci
NW - Iapux => Iapodes
NW - Meses -> Moesians
SW - Lips -> Liburnians
SSW Libonotus = Lib + Notus
NW - Skiron -> Scordisci or Skires?
Argetes wind blowing from same direction as Skiron = Tyrgetes (tribe south of Skires)


300px-AtlBalk.e-150.jpg



essentially, following the mapping of Venti wind gods to tribes, the ancient race of Venethi, that is according to Jordanes origin of early Slavs, are:

Thracians, Dacians and few north Dalmatia tribes..
 
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Serbs and Croats do not have Germanic origins. 40 or so percent of Croats and 35-45% of Serbs are haplogroup I-M423, the Balkans haplogroup I. Some studies onSerbs even show frequencies as high as 50%. These men are indigenous to the Balkans and have been in that area for thousands of years. I personally call them "southern proto-Europeans". They share a same haplogroup but different subclade as their Scandinavian I cousins that dominate Sweden and Norway (northern proto-Europeans). Croats have slightly higher Slavic R1a blood, 30-38% or so versus Serbia's 15-20% of men. Serbia has significantly higher north-African blood ( Balkans haplogroup E found in Greece, Albania, Bulgaria, Macedonia, is also found in Serbs at about 20-25% of Serbian males.) overall, I-M423 and R1a dominate most Croatian men and I-M423 with almost exact levels of R1a and E ( slightly more E than R1a ) dominates Serbian men. "Germanic" blood is very low in both these countries with haplogroup R1b around 10- max 15% in both countries and haplogroup I1a ( I don't even refer to this as Germanic I just call it Nordic or Nordic haplogroup I) being low in both countries. They are both predominantly Southern proto European (balkanian I) and Slavic, although Serbia has more haplogroup E presence and maybe 10% more I-M423 whereas Croatia has maybe 10% more R1a.
 
"also Jordanes mention of Sclaveni, Venedi and Antes as Venethic race cannot be without any reason..."
I´m sorry,but Jordanes is not a trustworthy source.About Antes:unfortunately such ethnonyms as Antes don´t tell us very much.The Iranian word anta,ossetian aeddae/aendae means (people on the) border/borderer/borderland,margin,outside.

as per my post #63, it is explained that the word Venethi is a fabricated word created for the first time by Jordanes to celebrate the gothic victory over the insignificant venedi tribe on the coast of the baltic sea, the goths then destroyed the venedi neighbours the aestii and then marched to the black sea.
Jordanes, a goth was only trying to tell how great the Goths are.

He is truly untrustworthy as a historian


There is plenty more on the ventics in Italy
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/archaeology/people/research/perego


[url]http://ucl.academia.edu/ElisaPerego/Talks



[/URL]
 
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I forgot Moesians among Veneti

my conclusion:

ancient race of Venethi are: Dacians, Thracians, Moesians and few north Dalmatian tribes (Libourni and Iapodes)...they origin from ancient Venethi of Paphlagonia (south shores of Black sea in Asia minor) that are kicked out of Asia minor due to some war regarding timing probably due to participation in "sea people" conquest...

Zeruiani whose state is so big that all Slavs come from it......is nothing but a reference to PIE people Serians/Zeruiani/Zoryans/Aryans... .they spread to Asia with conquest of "sea peoples.... as recorded by Egyptians this is not just sea conquest but also big settlement wave via land...
term "sea people" comes from their worship of Dagon (fish god) and his wife Ser/Asura/Danu/Ishtar/Ishara...

they were old eastern euroasian R1a with some J2... they cannot be called proto-Slavic as they are source of all PIE languages...
http://r1a.org/3.htm#11


I2a-Din is originally Celtic.... it enters into R1a Venethi Balto-Slavic complex with Serdi...it probably influences the language, so it departs from Balto-Slavic, giving explanation of Dalmil's chronicle that Czechs are born among Poles in Croatia land inside Serbian language....

Liburnians and Iapodes are Venethi...they are same R1a people as Moesians, Thracians and Dacians....this explains increased R1a in north Dalmatia........

Venethi people speak pre-Balto-Slavic....and Balts are among them. Note here that Aesti or Estonians are probably the thracian tribe Astae
Astae,[4][5] they appear in the 2nd century BC to 1st century BC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_tribes
they move north in 1st century BC....and stay unaffected by language changes introduced with Serdi....


I2a-Din Serdi give Carpi as child tribe in Dacian areas...
Serdi and Carpi are origin of Serbs and Croats....

Scordisci are romanized...which explains why in Slovakia I2a-Din origins from late Vlach settlers from near Danube area...

Russian primary chronicle is right... early Slavs live in Danube area and some of them move north with spread of Roman empire...
those are at first "free Dacians"...and later more general free Veneti... or Slobodni(free) Venti from this comes tribal name Slovenci

which is by Roman writers denoted Sclaveni and adapted by modern Slavs as Sloveni...

around core of free Venethi or SloVeneti are their border people Venedi and Anti (those tribal names are derived from PIE words meaning "border people")

483px-Slavic_peoples_6th_century_historical_map.jpg



among Venedi are Serbs and Croats....De administrando imperio says they are called there "white" but they are in fact called Venedi which is interpreted by writer via Celtic *Wendo = white

De administrando imperio says Serbs come from land they call Boiki (Bohemia) which is also where they have originally dwellt...
this is true, because Serdi are Celtic people that origin from Boii that is from Bohemia....


Illyrians are Celtic...that is clear from Greek myths that says how Illyrius, Celtus and Galas are brothers....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius
they are more I2a-Din in north and more R1b in south...in south there is also some remain of original Serians/Aryans with J2 and R1a...
these Celtic people cover large range of Illyria

language of Illyrians is lost as they live on sea coasts and areas that are covered with Roman settlements....they are completely romanised...this happens as in France also because their language was not too far from italic languages....

Dardanians are E-V13 with some R1b..... they enter from Asia minor from area of Troy....from Dardanians that live in north Albania mountains unaffected by romanisation comes Albanian language and culture.....medieval name of Albanians in Serbia is Arbani / Arbanasi and in Greece Arvanites, and in Italy Arberi...this all stems from tribal name (D)Ardani...

those Dardanians that didnot move to mountains of north Albania were romanised and later Slavicized... they are the largest source of E-V13 in modern Serbs...
 
How yes no 3 you are correct both of you that dislike my comment I am a nothing, a moron but I have a question how is dinaric/Balkan haplogroup I Celtic? I was under the impression only R1b was a significant Celtic marker
 
if they held large state in that area, than your hypothesis makes sense...

I never heard that Carpathians were called Monte Basternae...
but I know Carpathians were also Montes Serrorum (e.g. in writings of Ammianus Marcellinus) and Harvaða fjöllum (in Viking stories), and that east Carpatians were Montes Sarmatici, while west were Carpataes...and some think current name is derived from Carpi...

Don't worry ...they are not germanic...

Tacitus wrote in Germania chapter 46: 'Peucini, quos quidam Bastarnas vocant, sermone, cultu, sede ac domiciliis ut Germani agunt.' ('The Peucini, who are sometimes called Bastarnae, are like Germans in their language, manner of life, and mode of settlement and habitation.')

They are like Germans, not actually Germans.

clearly they are significant in history for 500Years, they where then overrun by sarmatians...but before this they helped the macedonians destroy the Dardanii ( albanians ) and settled 30000 people there....did they bring I2 ydna from north of the danube into the balkans?
 
How yes no 3 you are correct both of you that dislike my comment I am a nothing, a moron but I have a question how is dinaric/Balkan haplogroup I Celtic? I was under the impression only R1b was a significant Celtic marker

northern balkan illyrians ( eastern austria, hungaria, Croatia, slovenia areas )where overrun by celts and became a mixed society, the celts also migrated down the danube until the reached the black sea.
The celts even failed in their attempt to subdue the Greeks. all this was after Alexander the great period and before the roman wars against Hannibal
 
I forgot Moesians among Veneti

my conclusion:
ancient race of Venethi are: Dacians, Thracians, Moesians and few north Dalmatian tribes (Libourni and Iapodes)...they origin from ancient Venethi of Paphlagonia (south shores of Black sea in Asia minor) that are kicked out of Asia minor due to some war regarding timing probably due to participation in "sea people" conquest...

Zeruiani whose state is so big that all Slavs come from it......is nothing but a reference to PIE people Serians/Zeruiani/Zoryans/Aryans... .they spread to Asia with conquest of "sea peoples.... as recorded by Egyptians this is not just sea conquest but also big settlement wave via land...
term "sea people" comes from their worship of Dagon (fish god) and his wife Ser/Asura/Danu/Ishtar/Ishara...

they were old eastern euroasian R1a with some J2... they cannot be called proto-Slavic as they are source of all PIE languages...
http://r1a.org/3.htm#11


I2a-Din is originally Celtic.... it enters into R1a Venethi Balto-Slavic complex with Serdi...it probably influences the language, so it departs from Balto-Slavic, giving explanation of Dalmil's chronicle that Czechs are born among Poles in Croatia land inside Serbian language....

Liburnians and Iapodes are Venethi...they are same R1a people as Moesians, Thracians and Dacians....this explains increased R1a in north Dalmatia........

Venethi people speak pre-Balto-Slavic....and Balts are among them. Note here that Aesti or Estonians are probably the thracian tribe Astae

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_tribes
they move north in 1st century BC....and stay unaffected by language changes introduced with Serdi....


I2a-Din Serdi give Carpi as child tribe in Dacian areas...
Serdi and Carpi are origin of Serbs and Croats....

Scordisci are romanized...which explains why in Slovakia I2a-Din origins from late Vlach settlers from near Danube area...

Russian primary chronicle is right... early Slavs live in Danube area and some of them move north with spread of Roman empire...
those are at first "free Dacians"...and later more general free Veneti... or Slobodni(free) Venti from this comes tribal name Slovenci

which is by Roman writers denoted Sclaveni and adapted by modern Slavs as Sloveni...

around core of free Venethi or SloVeneti are their border people Venedi and Anti (those tribal names are derived from PIE words meaning "border people")

483px-Slavic_peoples_6th_century_historical_map.jpg



among Venedi are Serbs and Croats....De administrando imperio says they are called there "white" but they are in fact called Venedi which is interpreted by writer via Celtic *Wendo = white

De administrando imperio says Serbs come from land they call Boiki (Bohemia) which is also where they have originally dwellt...
this is true, because Serdi are Celtic people that origin from Boii that is from Bohemia....


Illyrians are Celtic...that is clear from Greek myths that says how Illyrius, Celtus and Galas are brothers....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius
they are more I2a-Din in north and more R1b in south...in south there is also some remain of original Serians/Aryans with J2 and R1a...
these Celtic people cover large range of Illyria

language of Illyrians is lost as they live on sea coasts that are covered with Roman settlements....they are completely romanised

Dardanians are E-V13 with some R1b..... they enter from Asia minor from area of Troy....from Dardanians that live in north Albania mountains unaffected by romanisation comes Albanian language and culture.....medieval name of Albanians in Serbia is Arbani / Arbanasi and in Greece Arvanites, and in Italy Arberi...this all stems from tribal name (D)Ardani...


LOL, you make a joy in reading this fiction...I laugh so much , my stomach aches.

Venetic language, latest July 2012 ....get up to date
http://www.jolr.ru/files/(83)jlr2012-7(33-46).pdf

by a slav
 

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