Serbs and Croats origin from Germanic Scirii and Hirri?

So I guess people's correlating genetically with Finns arrived first and the I1a people later, that implies that Finns arrived before the Norwegian-Swedish types? So Finns are the original Scandinavians?

All this is not so simple. Only Ajv52 and Ajv70 are shown to have arrived before Norwegian-Swedish types. Autosomal heritage shows horizontal genetic distances only, but less of vertical parent-child ancestry. Ajv52 and Ajv70 resemble today Finns, but they even more so resemble Saami autosomals. Finns and Saami are different too (K3 structure analysis showed that for instance), but they are similar in a more broad perspective, e.g. belonging to "north-european" genetic component of K12 or "atlantic-baltic" of K10 for instance, depending on the chosen resolution and method.
Norwegians and Swedes of course are also very north european, but they seem to have already some other unknown admixture possibly from western or southern europe, possibly stemming from late near-eastern hunter-gaterers or early farmers. Saami also have this, but only very little. Indo europeans are yet another impact which is not completely understood yet. Today Finns for instance are genetically closer to today indo-europeans than Saami, according to some analysis. Don't confuse Finns with Saami.

You would think N1c would be more widespread e over Norway/Sweden if this was the case but anyways....I suppose that these Finnic types where pushed out of much of western Scandinavia by the arrival of these I1a men then...

I think it is too ambitious to map all this to simplistic things like haplogroups, languages or nations.
 
So I guess saami arrived first then I1 northern proto-Europeans then Finns or some different order?
 
Gyms is correct -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_people

The hg I1 appeared in scandinavia around 3000BC with the battle axe culture. They were a mix of Carpathian I1 and Steppe R1a. Sami are the oldest continues Scandinavians today. If there was hg I in Scandinavia before 3000BC it died out, and no modern subclad exists.
Rubbish. I1 has been present for almost 5000 years in mainland Scandinavia
 
So I guess saami arrived first then I1 northern proto-Europeans then Finns or some different order?

People similar to today saami came probably first, yes. Indo-european speakers came certainly later, but they could have been also similar to native northern-europeans (e.g. Saami) by chance, but this is not sure yet. I don't know what you mean by "northern proto-europeans". Saami and Finns are northern europeans genetically as well as most other nations living in northern europe. Haplogroup N was probably important in uralic speakers. Story of I1 is not sure yet, but certainly older than indo-european. R1a is probably Corded Ware indo-european, but it is not so sure either. R1b is probably related to bronze-age centum IE speakers, but not sure.
 
So I guess saami arrived first then I1 northern proto-Europeans then Finns or some different order?
No, there is no link between them and the ancient Scandinavian hunter gathers.

Scandinavia holds a unique place in this debate, for it maintained one of the last major hunter-gatherer complexes in Neolithic Europe, the Pitted Ware culture. Intriguingly, these late hunter-gatherers existed in parallel to early farmers for more than a millennium before they vanished some 4,000 years ago. The prolonged coexistence of the two cultures in Scandinavia has been cited as an argument against population replacement between the Mesolithic and the present .
Through analysis of DNA extracted from ancient Scandinavian human remains, we show that people of the Pitted Ware culture were not the direct ancestors of modern Scandinavians (including the Saami people of northern Scandinavia) but are more closely related to contemporary populations of the eastern Baltic region.


Ancient DNA Reveals Lack of Continuity between Neolithic Hunter-Gatherers and Contemporary Scandinavians
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822%2809%2901694-7




Interestingly, among the Saami - the population which is often considered as a genetic outlier in Europe - the dominant western component is accompanied by about one third of the eastern component, making the Saami genetically more similar to Volga-Finnic populations than to their closest Fennoscandian-East Baltic neighbors.
K. Tambets et al.
K. Rehnström et al.
 
Saami came probably first, yes. Indo-european speakers came certainly later, but they could have been also similar to native northern-europeans (e.g. Saami) by chance, but this is not sure yet. I don't know what you mean by "northern proto-europeans". Saami and Finns are northern europeans genetically as well as most other nations living in northern europe. Haplogroup N was probably important in uralic speakers. Story of I1 is not sure yet, but certainly older than indo-european. R1a is probably Corded Ware indo-european, but it is not so sure either. R1b is probably related to bronze-age centum IE speakers, but not sure.

There is no evidence that they came first. There is no proven continuity between them and old Scandinavian hunter gathers. Some ancient Scandinavian human remains of the Pitted Ware culture (in central Sweden) lack direct link with any modern Scandinavians (including the Saami people of northern Scandinavia). What remains is only the pre-historic haplogroup Q found in some Swedish males.

From a Swedish and Danish study:
Ancient DNA Reveals Lack of Continuity between Neolithic Hunter-Gatherers and Contemporary Scandinavians
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822(09)01694-7

Scandinavia holds a unique place in this debate, for it maintained one of the last major hunter-gatherer complexes in Neolithic Europe, the Pitted Ware culture. Intriguingly, these late hunter-gatherers existed in parallel to early farmers for more than a millennium before they vanished some 4,000 years ago. The prolonged coexistence of the two cultures in Scandinavia has been cited as an argument against population replacement between the Mesolithic and the present.

Through analysis of DNA extracted from ancient Scandinavian human remains, we show that people of the Pitted Ware culture were not the direct ancestors of modern Scandinavians (including the Saami people of northern Scandinavia) but are more closely related to contemporary populations of the eastern Baltic region. Our findings support hypotheses arising from archaeological analyses that propose a Neolithic or post-Neolithic population replacement in Scandinavia.


Saami not descended from Swedish Hunter-Gathers
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/g...ded-from-swedish-hunter-gathers/#.UW20V6LV_nE

What were used in the studies were the earliest human remais found in Sweden, something to 7000-8000 years ago. There is no lack. Although for some critics the argument isn't particularly strong yet, considering the small samples and lack of Y-DNA haplogroup and genome-wide SNP data.
 
I'm going to throw you rope Al Kochol... you stated that hg. I1 was Slavic which is false.

What I think you meant was that a few lines of I1 contributed to the Slavic make-up. That could be true.

Learn to read first. I never stated that I1 is Slavic. I stated that I2a can be regarded as belonging to Slavic soup of Y markers, while I1 to Germanic.
 
Oops, sorry, I think I was in the middle of finishing my post when you already quoted it, thus now you can see I corrected myself to a more vague expression in the first sentence. Still, see below...

There is no evidence that they came first. There is no proven continuity between them and old Scandinavian hunter gathers. Some ancient Scandinavian human remains of the Pitted Ware culture (in central Sweden) lack direct link with any modern Scandinavians (including the Saami people of northern Scandinavia). What remains is only the haplogroup Q found in some Swedish males.



From a Swedish and Danish study.
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822%2809%2901694-7

Saami not descended from Swedish Hunter-Gathers
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/g...ded-from-swedish-hunter-gathers/#.UW20V6LV_nE

But this is based on haplogroup ancestry, right?
My point was rather based on autosomal co-ancestry, because haplogroups can get extinct.
Here is a thread about the same topic, where a later K3 analysis matched Ajv52 and Ajv70 exactly to the peoples of saami.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...from-Sweden-Super-Saami?highlight=super+saami

That's why I think the Saami are still the closest ancestors alive of these ancient hunter-gatherers, even if not direct ancestors in a vertical sense. That being said, I have no 100% confidence in K3 either.

Thanks for the information about haplogroup Q, that was a missing piece.
 
Pitted Ware Culture (Neolithic Hunter Gatherers) in Scandinavia is most related to Neolithic Latvian cemeteries. Modern Latvian Y-DNA R1a 40%, N1c1 38%, I1 6%. I would guess the PWC was N1c1 (Saami cultural complex). If your source is true Balder, then the modern Saami are a replacement of an ancient Saami population (same language same culture different region).
 
But this is based on haplogroup ancestry, right?
My point was rather based on autosomal co-ancestry, because haplogroups can get extinct.
Here is a thread about the same topic, where a later K3 analysis matched Ajv52 and Ajv70 exactly to the peoples of saami.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...from-Sweden-Super-Saami?highlight=super+saami

That's why I think the Saami are still the closest ancestors alive of these ancient hunter-gatherers, even if not direct ancestors in a vertical sense. That being said, I have no 100% confidence in K3 either.

Thanks for the information about haplogroup Q, that was a missing piece.

According with the study modern Scandinavian gene pool basically formed during the late Neolithic (5000 years), when populations from continental Europe absorbed and displaced the small ancient Scandinavian Pitted Ware Mesolithic populations. Since then, we have been a couple of migration waves into Scandinavia, including Corded Ware from the east, which brought Indo-European influence (and probably R1a). Although this was not relevant to a certain extent, R1a in Sweden is close to 19%.

Our population-based core was the shift between the mesolithic and the neolithic.

Autossomically it seems that there is no continuity, however what's contraditory is that we have very ancient mesolithic yDNA and mtDNA here dating back to more than 6000-8000 years. "Pitted Ware" hunter-gatherer samples of study mostly carried U4, U5 and U5a, they still exist in our population as the case of some samples pre-historic yDNA Q found in some Swedish males in the province of Halland, Skåne and Småland.

I am a little critical of the study and the conclusion as well. But also I agree with a lot of things. That it is.
 
There is no Mesolithic or Neolithic Ydna recorded from the PWC. (PWC was a Neolithic pottery using hunter gatherer culture).

"U5 has been found in human remains dating from the Mesolithic in England, Germany, Lithuania, Poland, Portugal, Russia,[14] Sweden,[15] France [16] and Spain. [17] Haplogroup U5 and its subclades U5a and U5b form the highest population concentrations in the far north, in Sami, Finns, and Estonians," Wiki

There's no contradiction. An earlier Nc1c Saami like culture was there first. You can't argue the 10,000 year continuity of Saami culture in Scandinavia and Finland.
 
Cannot you comprehend that Vikings were also Slavs? 1st rulers of Kievan Ruś were pure Vikings.

Did you say this? "...Vikings were also Slavs"-- what am I missing? I think it may be time for some verbal gymnastics.

And to the moderators... this is on topic because we must know the make-up of the Scirii and Hirrii before we can assign them their place in later history.

**EDIT**
I now realize that you must be of the opinion that the Viking Rus were all R1a.

Also an argument that is difficult to defend. This topic has been covered on another thread and if we use FTDNA Viking project... the Viking I1 and R1a percentages in Russia are almost perfectly even.
 
Last edited:
"
Pitted Ware Culture (Neolithic Hunter Gatherers) in Scandinavia is most related to Neolithic Latvian cemeteries. Modern Latvian Y-DNA R1a 40%, N1c1 38%, I1 6%. I would guess the PWC was N1c1 (Saami cultural complex). If your source is true Balder, then the modern Saami are a replacement of an ancient Saami population (same language same culture different region). " You are telling me the original Scandinavians had near 40-50% R1a? Wow I doubt this....
 
You can't argue the 10,000 year continuity of Saami culture in Scandinavia and Finland.

Unlikely. Within of not less than 7000 years ago much of Central and Northern Sweden was virtually uninhabitable. The ice age ended up between 11000 years ago in Northern Europe, however, its delegation process was slow in Scandinavia and even adding, Sweden was partly submerged until a 6000-7000 years ago.

The Ancylus lake
1000px-Baltic_History_7500-BC.svg.png



The Littorina Sea (also Litorina Sea) is a geological brackish-water stage of the Baltic Sea, which existed around 7500–4000 BP and followed the Mastogloia Sea, transitional stage of the Ancylus Lake.
1000px-Baltic_History_5000-BC.svg.png


^^
That's why in parts, the conclusion of the study sounds within, and reasonable to a certain extent.

The old (stone age) and prehistoric Mesolithic population of Scandinavia was very small. I disagree of conclusion of total lack of continuity, since it used too few samples and human remains, nevertheless it seems undeniably that the ancient pre-historic people of Scandinavia were very irrelevant in numbers, given also all of desfavorable condition of survival for a small pre-historic hunter gather people to 7000-8000 years ago, the boreal latitudes did not allow many of them to exist simultaneously at any time, so it is not too improbable that an almost population drift, if not a total drift, happened between the Mesolithic and Neolithic.

From the study:

"By 6,700 years before present (BP) the Neolithization process had influenced most of northern Europe. However, Scandinavia (including Denmark) was still occupied by highly mobile hunter-gatherer groups. Although the hunter-gatherers of Denmark and southern Sweden adopted pottery early on, the Neolithization first took real shape with the appearance of the Funnel Beaker Cultural complex (FBC, also known as the Trichterbecher Kultur [TRB]) some 6,000 years BP (the oldest evidence possible dating back some 6,200 years BP). At this time domestic cattle and sheep, cereal cultivation, and the characteristic TRB pottery were introduced into most of Denmark and southern parts of Sweden. " ( Ancient DNA reveals lack of continuity between neolithic hunter-gatherers and contemporary Scandinavians. Malmström et al. Current Biology 2009)

"One of these last hunter-gatherer complexes was the Pitted Ware culture (PWC), which can be identified by its single-inhumation graves distributed over the coastal areas of Sweden and the Baltic Sea islands that lie closest to the Swedish coast. Intriguingly, the PWC first appears in the archaeological record of Scandinavia after the arrival of the TRB (some 5,300 years BP) and existed in parallel with farmers for more than a millennium before vanishing about 4,000 years BP" ( Ancient DNA reveals lack of continuity between neolithic hunter-gatherers and contemporary Scandinavians. Malmström et al. Current Biology 2009)

TRB sw. "trattbärarkulturen"
PWC sw. "gropkeramiska kulturen"

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982209016947


-------

There's no contradiction. An earlier Nc1c Saami like culture was there first.

Also it doesn’t make sense. The N1c1 entered milenia later in Scandinavia, and after the I1 and Rb1 also. The oldest N1c1 clade in Sweden has around 3500 years according to this study. http://www.oocities.org/grpadm/Karlsson_2006.pdf

Also, even much of the N1c1 in Saamis comes from the Finns (ancient Kvens).

The older male lineage in Scandinavia is the remain yDNA Q (possibly a very ancient pre-historic 'northern eastern' hunter gather haplogroup, in Scandinavia, it seems to be dated of Maglemosian culture, (all of it, before major expansions from Central and Western Europe (and late P.I.E) that caused a significant population replacements across Northern and Northeastern Europe).

The Maglemosian culture
A culture called the Maglemosian culture lived in Denmark and southern Sweden, and north of them, in Norway and along the coast of western Sweden, the Fosna-Hensbacka culture, who lived mostly along the shores of the thriving forests. Utilizing fire, boats and stone tools enabled these Stone Age inhabitants to survive life in northern Europe.

The northern hunter/gatherers followed the herds and the salmon runs, moving south during the winters, moving north again during the summers. These early peoples followed cultural traditions similar to those practiced throughout other regions in the far north – areas including modern Finland, Russia, and across the Bering Strait into the northernmost strip of North America (comprising portions of today's Alaska and Canada).

The Fosna/Hensbacka (ca.8300 BC - 7300 BC),or (12000 cal.BP-10500 cal.BP), were two very similar Late Palaeolithic/early Mesolithic cultures in Scandinavia, and are often subsumed under the name Fosna-Hensbacka culture. This complex includes the Komsa culture that, notwithstanding different types of tools, is also considered to be a part of the Fosna culture group. The main difference is that the Fosna/Komsa culture was distributed along the coast of southern Norway, whereas the Hensbacka culture had a more eastern distribution along the coast of western Sweden; primarily in central Bohuslän to the north of Göteborg.

Appearing next:

The Kongemose culture
During the 6th millennium BCE, southern Scandinavia was clad in lush forests of temperate broadleaf and mixed forests. In these forests roamed animals such as aurochs, wisent, moose and red deer. Now, tribes that we call the Kongemose culture lived off these animals. Like their predecessors, they also hunted seals and fished in the rich waters.
North of the Kongemose people, lived other hunter-gatherers in most of southern Norway and Sweden, called the Nøstvet and Lihult cultures, descendants of the Fosna and Hensbacka cultures. These cultures still hunted, in the end of the 6th millennium BCE when the Kongemose culture was replaced by the Ertebølle culture in the south.


Ertebølle culture
Soon, they too started to cultivate the land and, ca 4000 BCE, they became part of the megalithic Funnelbeaker culture. During the 4th millennium BCE, these Funnelbeaker tribes expanded into Sweden up to Uppland.

It is the period of entry of I1 into the region coming from Jutland and Northern Germany. Hence a part of the criticism in the study, it leaves obscure the origin of the I1 in Scandinavia, the study does not explain the correlation of populational drift or imply it and the fact it exists here to almost 5000 years.

Regarding the I1 as I said a few posts ago it was already present here for between 4500-5000 years ago in southern Sweden during the Ertebølle culture, ca 5300 BC-3950 BC, (name of a small remain neolithic ‘hunter-gatherer’ and fisher culture-making, pottery dating to the end of the Mesolithic to early of Neolithic period. The culture was concentrated in Southern Scandinavia, but genetically linked to strongly related cultures in Northern Germany and the Northern Netherlands. It is named after the type site, a location in the small village of Ertebølle on Limfjorden in Danish Jutland). And that's not meant in just at the entrance of the I1 in Sweden but also of Rb1 (giving rise two milenia later to a following Megalitic culture into the area).


---------

There is no Mesolithic or Neolithic Ydna recorded from the PWC. (PWC was a Neolithic pottery using hunter gatherer culture).

I don't agree with everything posted in that study, the argument isn't particularly strong yet, considering the small samples of mtDNA and lack of Y-DNA haplogroup (though it is certain that the yDNA Q is the oldest) and a poor genome-wide SNP data.

Nevertheless I admit the study make sense when it claims that the ancient Scandinavian pre-historic (stone age) population was too small to have given continuity in the current Scandinavian genepool, including the Saamis. If there is continuity, it is too small to make claims. Any modern Scandinavian individual, Swedish, or Norwegian or Saami could be carrying a 'remain' lost part of those 'ancient' genes, not specifically a group or whatever it is.

On the Saamis, their origin is complex, but it is already known they have a link to Volga-Urals through mtdna and genome-wide data. These two phenomenoms must be linked as Saami Y-dna pool is not really that much different from the Finnish one. Should remember that the modern Saamis are a result of two ancient Saamic populations. They are a 'hybrid' group with eastern (Volga-Uralic) and western (neolithic Scandinavians) origin, and also a product of a blottneck populational effect in Northern areas.
 
I now realize that you must be of the opinion that the Viking Rus were all R1a.

Also an argument that is difficult to defend. This topic has been covered on another thread and if we use FTDNA Viking project... the Viking I1 and R1a percentages in Russia are almost perfectly even.

Vikings were not I1, but R1a. I1 were Goths. Vikings mixed with them in the Scandinavian peninsula. Viking Ruś were mostly R1a + some leftover of I2a.
 
(though it is certain that the yDNA Q is the oldest) and a poor genome-wide SNP data.

Nevertheless I admit the study make sense when it claims that the ancient Scandinavian pre-historic (stone age) population was too small to have given continuity in the current Scandinavian genepool, including the Saamis. If there is continuity, it is too small to make claims. Any modern Scandinavian individual, Swedish, or Norwegian or Saami could be carrying a 'remain' lost part of those 'ancient' genes, not specifically a group or whatever it is.

I agree with almost everything. Just one thought: yDNA Q would be most likely related to the globe4 amerindian autosomal component:

http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2012/10/admixture-tracks-amerindian-like.html

The amerindian admixture is rather high throughout northern europe, even in Ireland it is still 7.6% (maximum: Lithuanian/Slavs have only 9.1%, not much higher). Further, yDNA Q is present in minimal traces throughout Europe, not only in Scandinavia. Althouth the Ukrainian Q could have jewish origin.
Haplogroup-Q.gif


I thought yDNA Q has been replaced by R1b(+I??) newcomers in the west, N1(+R1a?) in the east, such that the old Scandinavian lineages were least affected in the middle. But this is only a suggestion for thought, not a statement.
 
Wrong alkcohol. The I1a in Scandinavia was present there long before the goths of the Ukraine/Romania area who where almost surely not I1. Nor where the Vikings heavily predominantly R1a men, at all. R1a is found in 20% of Norwegians and swedes whereas as I1a is more than twice this amount 45-60%. Obviously R1a was later accepted/introduced into Scandinavia but they where not the original Vikings.
 
There's no contradiction. An earlier Nc1c Saami like culture was there first. You can't argue the 10,000 year continuity of Saami culture in Scandinavia and Finland.
As I said, if true, it would have been very or almost, unlikely. Much of the modern territory of Sweden today, was submerged for no less than 7000-10000 years ago and a part still in remained ice. If you notice the coastal geology of all the eastern region here, is all it in stone. The old prehistoric Mesolithic population could have been very small in numbers to have left a linear continuity as you might think, (they disappeared or were absorbed).
Also, the 'Finns' are, mostly, from 'quite' recent populations. N1c1 (clade mutation) appears to be relatively young - no more than 5000 years old as much as the I1.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0883292708000863
1-s2.0-S0883292708000863-gr1.jpg



--------

I agree with almost everything. Just one thought: yDNA Q would be most likely related to the globe4 amerindian autosomal component:

http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2012/10/admixture-tracks-amerindian-like.html

The amerindian admixture is rather high throughout northern europe, even in Ireland it is still 7.6% (maximum: Lithuanian/Slavs have only 9.1%, not much higher). Further, yDNA Q is present in minimal traces throughout Europe, not only in Scandinavia. Althouth the Ukrainian Q could have jewish origin.
Haplogroup-Q.gif


I thought yDNA Q has been replaced by R1b(+I??) newcomers in the west, N1(+R1a?) in the east, such that the old Scandinavian lineages were least affected in the middle. But this is only a suggestion for thought, not a statement.

Possibly. The abstract of this study is quite enlightening:

North East Europe harbors a high diversity of cultures and languages, suggesting a complex genetic history. Archaeological, anthropological, and genetic research has revealed a series of influences from Western and Eastern Eurasia in the past. While genetic data from modern-day populations is commonly used to make inferences about their origins and past migrations, ancient DNA provides a powerful test of such hypotheses by giving a snapshot of the past genetic diversity. In order to better understand the dynamics that have shaped the gene pool of North East Europeans, we generated and analyzed 34 mitochondrial genotypes from the skeletal remains of three archaeological sites in northwest Russia.

These sites were dated to the Mesolithic and the Early Metal Age (7,500 and 3,500 uncalibrated years Before Present). We applied a suite of population genetic analyses (principal component analysis, genetic distance mapping, haplotype sharing analyses) and compared past demographic models through coalescent simulations using Bayesian Serial SimCoal and Approximate Bayesian Computation. Comparisons of genetic data from ancient and modern-day populations revealed significant changes in the mitochondrial makeup of North East Europeans through time. Mesolithic foragers showed high frequencies and diversity of haplogroups U (U2e, U4, U5a), a pattern observed previously in European hunter-gatherers from Iberia to Scandinavia.

In contrast, the presence of mitochondrial DNA haplogroups C, D, and Z in Early Metal Age individuals suggested discontinuity with Mesolithic hunter-gatherers and genetic influx from central/eastern Siberia. We identified remarkable genetic dissimilarities between prehistoric and modern-day North East Europeans/Saami, which suggests an important role of post-Mesolithic migrations from Western Europe and subsequent population replacement/extinctions. This work demonstrates how ancient DNA can improve our understanding of human population movements across Eurasia. It contributes to the description of the spatio-temporal distribution of mitochondrial diversity and will be of significance for future reconstructions of the history of Europeans.

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1003296
 
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Interesting paper indeed. The weak evidence for mesolithic continuity adds even more probability to a later re-introduction of autosomals still similar to the general north-european autosomals from hunter-gatherers, but accompanied by different haplogroup compositions, for example indo-europeanized hunter-gatherers from somewhere else (steppes, central europe). The Gedrosia component in Scandinavians and Brits could be the hot trace. Just speculation...
 

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