Immigration sexual harassments by immigrants

Angela said:
Some of you really have to get better at closely reading and following the logic of other posters. This isn't the corner bar. We're supposed to be rational people here whether we're discussing genetics and history or news stories.

I never questioned that there seem to have been multiple incidents of sexual harassment during these celebrations. There also seems to be little doubt that the majority of the perpetrators were of either North African or Middle Eastern descent. Cultural differences have their part to play in all of this, as does the fact that absolutely no screening of these "refugees" from not only the Middle East but North Africa and Afghanistan was done. There's probably a good chance that criminal elements entered Europe as well as bona fide refugees, not to mention the occasional terrorist.

However, I've yet to see actual data as to the exact number of incidents that are "proven" to have occurred by type of contact and with the geographical origin of the perpetrators, if possible, broken out.

In situations like this people will respond to such reports by highlighting the aspects of the situation which support their own agenda. That does a dis-service to the women who actually suffered these sexual assaults.

My point is and was that these complaints have to be thoroughly and objectively investigated by professional law enforcement people. That's what having a civilized society ruled by law rather than by mob means. If you don't trust your own police, call in people from international agencies. Then, let the chips fall where they may...

@Alan,
Some of this may indeed be the responsibility of some recent immigrants from the Near East. There's without question a different attitude and behavior with regard to women. From the behavior I've seen by Moroccans in Italy and Afghan refugees here I absolutely don't doubt reports of their involvement and the fact that they may have committed the majority of them. However, we need data from objective investigations, not the trading of anecdotes.

However, if you think that this anti-Near Eastern, indeed anti-immigration in general sentiment, and especially as to immigration from more "southern" parts of the world including southern Europe wasn't always there in a lot of people and just bubbling under the surface ready to explode, then you've been kidding yourself.
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these are the stats released today for Köln new years eve harrasments

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/960/Buiten...tm_campaign=socialredactie&utm_content=nieuws

821 reports from 1049 victims, 80 % women
of them there are 359 sexual delicts, of which 126 group rapes

only 30 suspects have been identified, all of them from North-African origin,
15 of them are asylum seekers, 2 are minor boys/men in age

these are only the reported cases in Köln, I know of Belgian women who got harassed and didn't go back to Germany to report
there are also other cities in Germany with hundreds of similar reports

these are not definitive numbers yet, but I hope that by now you can get an idea of the extent
by now there is no more doubt about the background and the ethnicity of the purportrators
as well as the limited number that will get punishment if any
it is something unseen in Europe and neither police nor justice are able to act against it
it is very clear that allowing this big incontrollable influx of refugees by Merkel was a big mistake
it is unbelievable that someone with so much power can make such naive mistakes

if your Dutch is not so good, you can read it in German too, with a detailes list of the 821 reports :

http://www.bild.de/regional/duesseldorf/ralf-jaeger/die-liste-der-schande-44239678.bild.html


oh, and this is the reaction by an imam in Köln : all these women that got raped are guilty themselves, the way they acted and were clothed and wearing perfume, it is normal they were raped

http://www.clint.be/actua/imam-verk...51201&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Emailvision
 
This is indeed what can happen when there is unregulated, chaotic, immigration, and especially when it's from culturally different parts of the world.

What's done is done; the question is how will European governments deal with it. Whether or not there is the political will to do some sort of mass expulsion of undocumented, recent migrants, prosecutors, police, and law enforcement in general have to come to grips with the short term consequences. That means diverting enough resources for beefed up numbers, enhanced training etc. The capacity for rapid deployment is essential. It may also be necessary for police presence at these kinds of mass events to be very obvious, at least until the point is driven home. In that regard, it's also essential that the punishments be severe: immediate expulsion back to the country of origin for undocumented people and really stiff sentences for the rest. A very clear and unambiguous message has to be sent. If EU rules don't permit it, change the rules.

As for these imans, if I were a European prosecutor I would make sure there were eyes and ears inside, if not actual, then virtual. (We had a great program federally under Rudy Giuliani, and in New York City the prior mayor and prior police commissioners had similar programs. Unfortunately, the current mayor, Bill DiBlasio, is an idiot and he dismantled it. He also dismantled "stop and frisk" procedures, which was another huge mistake.) Anything approaching incitement to this or other objectionable behavior means he should be tossed out. We didn't do it after the first World Trade Center bombing, and we should have.

Btw, do you know if the use of tasers is legal in some of these countries? Or mace? I wouldn't admit it in public under my real name, but even if they aren't, I'd carry them in the short term if I were a woman. (The ultra left northeast U.S. states have all banned the use of tasers.) I know the European horror of private citizens carrying guns, but if this happened on this scale here in the U.S., I'd see if I could qualify for a concealed carry permit now, and believe me, I'd aim where it would do the most good. There would be no more rapes from him.

Another point about the iman: I detest and utterly reject that kind of reasoning. There is no excuse for rape, or sexual harassment for that matter, and no one deserves it. However, it's never a good idea to bring virtually unknown men home with you, if for no other reason than self preservation. Even more so when it's some illegal migrant from a third world country with a different culture and attitudes toward women and an unknown propensity for criminality or violence. Can anyone spell stupid? (It should go without saying this is totally different from what went on at these mass events.)
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/01/14/report-man-arrested-italy-murder/78780204/
 
bicicleur said:
these are the stats released today for Köln new years eve harrasments

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/960/Buiten...tm_campaign=socialredactie&utm_content=nieuws

821 reports from 1049 victims, 80 % women
of them there are 359 sexual delicts, of which 126 group rapes

only 30 suspects have been identified, all of them from North-African origin,
15 of them are asylum seekers, 2 are minor boys/men in age

these are only the reported cases in Köln, I know of Belgian women who got harassed and didn't go back to Germany to report
there are also other cities in Germany with hundreds of similar reports

these are not definitive numbers yet, but I hope that by now you can get an idea of the extent
by now there is no more doubt about the background and the ethnicity of the purportrators
as well as the limited number that will get punishment if any
it is something unseen in Europe and neither police nor justice are able to act against it
it is very clear that allowing this big incontrollable influx of refugees by Merkel was a big mistake
it is unbelievable that someone with so much power can make such naive mistakes

if your Dutch is not so good, you can read it in German too, with a detailes list of the 821 reports :

http://www.bild.de/regional/duesseldorf/ralf-jaeger/die-liste-der-schande-44239678.bild.html


oh, and this is the reaction by an imam in Köln : all these women that got raped are guilty themselves, the way they acted and were clothed and wearing perfume, it is normal they were raped

http://www.clint.be/actua/imam-verk...51201&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Emailvision
Click to expand...
All perpetrators should be prosecuted and imprisoned. After the jail time foreigners should be send to country of origin. This imam should be sent back to his country too. I don't care for what paragraph exactly. "Not fitting Wester Values"!
Even if a woman decides to walk the streets naked, there is no reason to unleash inner animal and sexually abuse her.
 
I am very pessimistic about the capability of European authorities to handle the problems of immigration, terrorism and criminality.
The fact that only 30 purportrators have been identified is a telling tale.

The European authorities have failed in 2015 when they were simply in denial.
I fear in 2016 they will be downplaying the facts and they will lack the courage to act.
 
if Germany has lost control, I'm sure other European countries have as well

it is because of unlimited naivity towards immigrants and not allowing any criticism against it
now they'll have to reorganise the state to do a very costly damage control
 
Angela said:
Btw, do you know if the use of tasers is legal in some of these countries? Or mace?
Click to expand...

Relevant:

The teenager told police that she was attacked in central Sønderborg on Wednesday at around 10pm by a dark-skinned English-speaking man. She said the man knocked her to the ground and then unbuttoned her pants and attempted to undress her.

The girl was able to save herself from further assault by using pepper spray on the attacker, but now she may be the one who ends up in legal trouble.

“It is illegal to possess and use pepper spray, so she will likely be charged for that,” local police spokesman Knud Kirsten told TV Syd.
Click to expand...

http://www.thelocal.dk/20160126/dan...ttacker-with-pepper-spray-now-shell-face-fine
 
With all of this negative press, I think we need to remember Near Eastern immigrants like Amir Tekmati, an American marine recently released from captivity in Iran. Screening is important in terms of immigration, but maybe the U.S. is also just better at welcoming and assimilating immigrants, even immigrants from very different cultures.

 
Angela said:
Screening is important in terms of immigration, but maybe the U.S. is also just better at welcoming and assimilating immigrants, even immigrants from very different cultures.
Click to expand...
I can personally attest that multi ethnic countries of the New World (in America and Australia) are more tolerant, inclusive and welcoming to immigrants, than countries of the old world.
 
LeBrok said:
I can personally attest that multi ethnic countries of the New World (in America and Australia) are more tolerant, inclusive and welcoming to immigrants, than countries of the old world.
Click to expand...

you have no idea what you are talking about
Australia is an island and boats with refugees are simply towed away
North-America is surrounded by 2 oceans and a wall along the Rio Grande
there is no warzone in Middle or Southern America, there are no refugees that can appeal to the convention of Geneva, neither are there fanatic Muslims
there is no naive president or prime minister saying 'wir schaffen das'

Europe is flooded by the millions
they come with falsified Syrian pasports yet they claim refugee status
there are a lot of fanatic non-secular Muslims among them, a lot which don't subscribe western values
there are even terrorists travelling amongst them
Europe has a hangover, Sweden now wants to sent back 80.000 refugees, Germany wants to sent back 100.000's. Merkel now is negociating with fascist Erdogan who is blackmailing and raising his price every month for a deal to keep refugees in Turkey
the countries of origin don't want to take back these so-called refugees which Europe wants to send back
maybe Canada should take them, we'll wait and see how long your multi ethnic Canada will stand then

we have to thank political correctness for the state Europe is in now
 
bicicleur said:
you have no idea what you are talking about
Australia is an island and boats with refugees are simply towed away
North-America is surrounded by 2 oceans and a wall along the Rio Grande
there is no warzone in Middle or Southern America, there are no refugees that can appeal to the convention of Geneva, neither are there fanatic Muslims
there is no naive president or prime minister saying 'wir schaffen das'
Click to expand...
I'm talking about acceptance and tolerance of immigrants who are already accepted in the country. Understood?

Europe is flooded by the millions
they come with falsified Syrian pasports yet they claim refugee status
there are a lot of fanatic non-secular Muslims among them, a lot which don't subscribe western values
there are even terrorists travelling amongst them
Europe has a hangover, Sweden now wants to sent back 80.000 refugees, Germany wants to sent back 100.000's. Merkel now is negociating with fascist Erdogan who is blackmailing and raising his price every month for a deal to keep refugees in Turkey
the countries of origin don't want to take back these so-called refugees which Europe wants to send back
maybe Canada should take them, we'll wait and see how long your multi ethnic Canada will stand then
Click to expand...
Why don't you test migrants for Western Values convictions. Who told you to let everyone in?!
 
LeBrok said:
I'm talking about acceptance and tolerance of immigrants who are already accepted in the country. Understood?

Why don't you test migrants for Western Values convictions. Who told you to let everyone in?!
Click to expand...

yes we also have problems with some immigrants who are allready in for a long time
that has always been denied by the political correct multiculturalists
these immigrants prospered on an overgenerous system of social security which allowed them to live in Europe without integration
those who talked about it were labelled racist

And how will you test them for Western Values if you're not even able to discern a real Syrian pasport from a fake one?
They come in Europe with the help of human traffickers and they have their stories well prepared.
I don't want your theories here, I want practical solutions.
 
bicicleur said:
those who talked about it were labelled racist
Click to expand...
Never, but those who don't like others of different ethnicity or culture are.

And how will you test them for Western Values if you're not even able to discern a real Syrian pasport from a fake one?
They come in Europe with the help of human traffickers and they have their stories well prepared.
I don't want your theories here, I want practical solutions.
Click to expand...
What? You just want one solution, which is not to let them in and kick out the ones who are already in. Who are you kidding, lol.
 
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/01/sweden-expel-80000-refugees-160128041124534.html

Swedish authorities have asked police and the country's migration agency to prepare expulsions of up to 80,000 refugees and migrants who arrived in 2015 and whose applications for asylum could be rejected.

http://news.yahoo.com/sweden-plans-expel-80-000-asylum-seekers-minister-053106985.html

Vice Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel announced that Germany will place Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia on a list of "safe countries of origin" -- meaning their nationals would have little chance of winning asylum.
Some migrants will also be blocked from bringing their families to join them in Germany for two years, Gabriel said.
 
LeBrok said:
Never, but those who don't like others of different ethnicity or culture are.
Click to expand...

yes, those saying that immigration were bringing a lot of problems to Europe were labelled racist by the fundamentalist political correctists who do not allow any criticism
 
LeBrok said:
What? You just want one solution, which is not to let them in and kick out the ones who are already in. Who are you kidding, lol.
Click to expand...

you are a fundamentalist political correctist putting words in my mouth I never said
by giving such an answer you admit that the situation in Europe is a mess for which you don't know any solution either
 
gyms said:
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/01/sweden-expel-80000-refugees-160128041124534.html

Swedish authorities have asked police and the country's migration agency to prepare expulsions of up to 80,000 refugees and migrants who arrived in 2015 and whose applications for asylum could be rejected.

http://news.yahoo.com/sweden-plans-expel-80-000-asylum-seekers-minister-053106985.html

Vice Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel announced that Germany will place Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia on a list of "safe countries of origin" -- meaning their nationals would have little chance of winning asylum.
Some migrants will also be blocked from bringing their families to join them in Germany for two years, Gabriel said.
Click to expand...

I wonder how this will turn out.
At least they don't invite the fortune seekers any more.
But a lot of harm is done and it will be a very costly operation to send back just a part of those who should be send back.
 
LeBrok said:
I can personally attest that multi ethnic countries of the New World (in America and Australia) are more tolerant, inclusive and welcoming to immigrants, than countries of the old world.
Click to expand...

http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/the-new-tolerance-must-crumble-says-don-carson

This line, attributed to Voltaire, can be used to measure tolerance: “I may hate what you believe, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” Though Carson doubts the origin of the statement, he stands on its value.

The “new tolerance” finds Voltaire’s statement intolerant. The new tolerance eliminates all possibility of declaring something as wrong or sinful. To hate what someone believes is now manifest bigotry. “The only thing that you are allowed to hate is intolerance as they define it, which shows that the whole system is, in some way or other, logically self-defeating.” On top of that, Carson stresses, “it becomes intellectually bankrupting, because it becomes impossible to talk about ideas. They are automatically black-listed under the rubric intolerant.”

(Though these words are regularly attributed to Voltaire, they were first used by Evelyn Beatrice Hall, writing under the pseudonym of Stephen G Tallentyre in The Friends of Voltaire (1906), as a summation of Voltaire's beliefs on freedom of thought and expression.)
 
The situation in Europe is indeed a mess, and I don't see any easy solutions.

However, as is usually the case, Europeans know very little about the U.S. (The reverse is also true.)

you have no idea what you are talking about
Australia is an island and boats with refugees are simply towed away
North-America is surrounded by 2 oceans and a wall along the Rio Grande
there is no warzone in Middle or Southern America, there are no refugees that can appeal to the convention of Geneva, neither are there fanatic Muslims
there is no naive president or prime minister saying 'wir schaffen das'
Click to expand...

There is no wall along the entire southern border with the U.S. The proposed building of such a wall is part of the platform of Donald Trump, who is running for the Republican nomination. Boats do indeed arrive filled with refugees, from Cuba, for example, although it was a while ago, and not in huge numbers. Castro emptied the Cuban prisons and let them all go to Florida.

Many of these immigrants in fact do come, or came, from war zones in Central America. It was almost impossible to discern who was coming as a refugee versus who was coming for economic reasons.

Conservative estimates put the total number of illegal aliens in the U.S. at twelve million. Most of them are from Mexico or countries from further south in Latin America, although every nationality is probably represented. We have quite a few Irish nationals in the New York area, for example. Many of them are hard-working people, but there are also drug gangs, arms running gangs etc. among them. MS-13 is a horrifically violent Central American gang that infests areas around New York City.

Even when drugs and violence aren't involved these people, who don't pay taxes, do use the social service system: they go to emergency rooms where they receive free medical care, their children go to the schools, etc. We even have "sanctuary cities" which refuse to cooperate with Immigration to deport them.

All of this is separate from the fact that the New World is indeed more welcoming to immigrants than Europe, and more tolerant of differences racial and religious. I also don't see how it can be denied that the more welcoming the host country, the more likely it is that the values of the host country will be adopted. Like LeBrok, I can testify to this through personal experience, both my own and what I have observed. If it doesn't work with the actual migrant, it works with next generation. There are exceptions, as in the case in San Bernardino, but they are not by any means the majority, which is instead the case in Europe.

It's very hard to resist integration here, whereas in Europe you've never even integrated the Jews who lived among you for two thousand years. Here, on the contrary, the rate of intermarriage with Jews is extraordinarily high, so high that some Orthodox Jewish leaders are afraid they will disappear as an ethnic group.

These are just facts, and separate from any discussion as to whether there should be unfettered and uncontrolled immigration, what to do with the migrants who have already arrived, what law enforcement should do etc.
 
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