23andMe Share your 23andMe Ancestry Composition

[Salento]

23andme V5 Raw-Data uploaded to LivingDNA:

 

[Syd]

My v5.9 results.

 

[Salento]

I've decided if 23 can't specify 14 out of 15 places, I’m gonna say I’m 100% Salento Lupiae :grin:

... obviously some of the “non detected” are a mix of very old shared ancestries, ... and after all my top Region is Puglia

 

[halfalp]

Do anybody knows how to interpret the Trace Ancestry in terms of Chronology?

 

[Riverman]

Do anybody knows how to interpret the Trace Ancestry in terms of Chronology?

I wouldn't interpret it at all, because even the larger percentages are sometimes unsure, especially if its two related ancestral components, but trace ancestry is totally speculative. It could be true, however, if you find matches which prove it. In such a case, you can calculate it like usually, based on the segment(s) length. Usually its just one or two segments, so you can search for a match with which you share it. If there is none, I would forget it. If there are some, I would try to work on it based on the match in question.

How much trace ancestry do you have in mind? Percentage or cM, number of segments?

 

[abriekman]

86,8% Eastern European,
9,1% Greek and Balkan,
0,3% Spanish and Portuguese,
1,2% Western Asian,
0,7% Ashkenazi Jewish,
1,4% Broadly Southern European,
0,5% Broadly European

 

[halfalp]

My southern european ancestry passed from 8,9% ( 2% Spanish&Portuguese / 0.9% Italian ) to only 3,7% with 3.1% of it being Italian.

 

[New Englander]

23andme Update

Edit and disregard.

 

[Riverman]

Do anybody knows how to interpret the Trace Ancestry in terms of Chronology?

Its not possible for two reason: First the trace ancestry is usually speculative and might be in many cases just noise or an artefact of the algorithm. Secondly, if its really just one small to moderate size segment, they can persist for many, many generations or being the result of a fairly recent admixture event. You can't tell apart, unless you have relatives tested which get the same segments plus additional ones. Then you might be able to conclude its more recent and was just sliced in half in the last generation. Otherwise you can't distinguish fairly old from fairly recent.

A lot of my excess Balkan which I got now is close to "broadly European" undefined segments. So I guess the algorithm just smoothed it out by taking what's there and assigning the bordering segments to the same ancestral component, because of a lack of a better reference. That way creating excess minority ancestry on just a few chromosomes on which this minority ancestry dominant.
Its very telling that better defined ancestral components, which are more clearly separated, don't do that. G & F, EE and Balkan have clearly some overlap. Same applies to Italian, G & F and Iberian too, as I read. Even more so British and F & G of course. So by changing the algorithm to smoothing out, many minor ancestries will be lost on some chromosomes or the whole genome, whereas being blown up for others. But there was little choice for 23andme, they really should work on improving their references, their algorithm seems fine.

 

[Angela]

Their references are primarily their customers. The major reason mine changed is probably because they got more customers from Emilia and so they were able to narrow it down.

They're not trying to do anthropology; they're trying to get samples for medical research they can sell. The by-product is a sort of genealogy, which in cases like mine, where I know where the vast majority of my ancestors have been for at least the last five or six hundred years, proves it can be remarkably accurate.

 

[Riverman]

Their references are primarily their customers. The major reason mine changed is probably because they got more customers from Emilia and so they were able to narrow it down.

They're not trying to do anthropology; they're trying to get samples for medical research they can sell. The by-product is a sort of genealogy, which in cases like mine, where I know where the vast majority of my ancestors have been for at least the last five or six hundred years, proves it can be remarkably accurate.

At least they do a better job than some companies which say of themselves they being focused on ancestral analyses.

 

[Stuvanè]

Instead, I was a bit puzzled by the latest update. There is something strange, more than anything else because it has almost practically leveled any cline in a large stretch of the Peninsula, too wide in my opinion.
By reconnaissance among my 23andMe matches, those who arrive at 99-100% of "Italian" component come above all from a strip of central-southern Italy that I seem to identify between southern Lazio, Abruzzo (perhaps also part of Molise), certainly the internal Campania (Benevento, Irpinia). Proceeding a little further towards the extreme southern coast and in Sicily, this component remains in the majority but is partly diluted with a pinch of Greek-Balkan, but above all with Western-Asian / North African (always a little too inflated IMO, but according to certain models it can make sense).


The oddities begin by traveling north towards Tuscany, Romagna, eastern Emilia and even coastal Veneto (!). Because this Italian component remains practically constant at very high percentages (at over 90%), mottled by very few points or French-German or Spanish-Portuguese (by eye it would seem that French German is more western, the second more eastern, but this is the least of the problems). Even a lady whose all 4 grandparents are originally from the Venetian Polesine and Chiogga is about 94% "Italian" and the little remaining part is Iberian and Balkan. Now should I believe that from the depths of Sannio to the Venetian lagoon there is such a homogeneous genetic block, just with some paltry continental nuance as we get closer to the Po river? Because the surprises don't end here: beyond the Po, for example in the middle of Lombardy, the Italian component drops dramatically (from over 90% it reaches between 60-70%) and the French-German swells to stellar levels (30-40 %). Perhaps not even such large percentage gaps have been measured between the two sides of the Alps...


There are two cases: either the famous Italian genetic cline is a fairy tale, or 23andMe is doing some cleverness, inventing a component to spread artfully for a large part of the Peninsula, so as to simplify life and make the estimates of its users easier. I lean towards the second hypothesis.


Continuing at this rate, his oracle will have the same practical utility as Gedrosia k3


Me (on the left) and a lady from southern Italy (on the right: inner Campania, Benevento/Faicchio)

Me and an Emilia-Romagna "cousin" (pretty close to me)

The Lady from the Venetian Lagoon/Chioggia

Comparison with a guy from Bergamo

A half Venetian (inner Veneto)/half Lombard woman

 

[Riverman]

Its the same for all major ethnic groups. Smaller admixtures being largely smoothed out, unless they are clearly defined segments, in which case they can even take over whole chromosomes. Its like pushing a button at a certain impact for larger parts of the chromosomes and ignoring smaller segments as long as they are not straightforwardly in another category.
Since Lombards and other Northern Italians have significant amounts of relatives Germanic ancestry, it can't swallow it, but might increase it or at least keep it. There are enough clearly Northern segments in those people, of moderate to large size. The Italians South of them have those too, but smaller, less clearly defined ones, resulting in them being ignored by the smoothing process. As soon as it can't be ignored and the segments are larger, it takes a fairly high proportion of the total genome out of a sudden, therefore ruining the cline.

If a genome/chromosome is overall clearly in one ethnic ancestral components category, only the very clearly defined other segments being recognised any more, the rest ignored. AncestryDNA made a somewhat different approach, but similar in some respects concerning the results. German ancestry being defined on AncestryDNA best by South Western Germans. So any Northern or Eastern German will get a lot of Scandinavian/English or Eastern European/Balkan too respectively. Their strength seems to be a larger data set.
Italians being now best defined by Central Italians, so people with a Northern shift get F & G, those with a South Eastern Balkan and North African among others.

23andme is now more on the point for the ethnicities overall, but at the cost of ignoring nuances and minor admixtures from related people and still lacking some reference samples.

 

[torzio]

myself and my father










the small percentage dregs have mostly gone ....................


This update to the Ancestry Composition algorithm improves the accuracy of customers’ results, while reducing the amount of both unassigned and broadly ancestry.


We determine your Ancestry Composition using only the information in your DNA and the DNA of other people with known genetic ancestries (our reference datasets). Your 23andMe reports are always based on your genetics. If your results describe you perfectly, that just goes to show you how much your DNA really tells about you!



The only error I see is for my father relation with Lower Saxony .............( which I do not have ).........but going down my family tree via BDM records, his great grand mother was Maria Eva Beatrice Amadio whose mother was a Swabian ( I think that is black forest area germany ) and not Saxony ............she was blonde and green eyed .............my grandfather was green eyed, my father green eyed, I am green eyed.............but all my sons are blue eyed after their mother


Note.......I am V3 tested and my father is V4 tested ....................we have never upgraded

 

[Regio X]

@torzio
Ancestry Composition was updated to 5.9 only for chip v5 so far. I tested v4, for example, and I'm still at 5.2 (from abt. one year ago).

So our results were finally updated few days ago, but from 5.2 to 5.4 (not 5.9, if it makes any difference).

Our Italian % increased a lot, which is good, and apparently the trio-phasing makes my results even better/more accurate than my parents'.

@torzio
Perhaps the difference between your father and yourself is explained by phasing too.


Mine:
* European: 100
- Southern European: 72.0
Italian: 69.4 (Veneto, Italy + 9 regions)
Broadly Southern European: 2.6
- Northwestern European: 25.9
French & German: 25.9 (Brittany, France + 2 regions)
- Eastern European: 0.6
- Broadly European: 1.5


Father:
* European: 99.9
- Southern European: 60.9
Italian: 60.9 (Veneto, Italy + 9 regions)
- Northwestern European: 39.0
French & German: 39.0
* Unassigned: 0.1


Mother:
* European: 100
- Southern European: 58.1
Italian: 58.1 (Veneto, Italy + 9 regions)
- Northwestern European: 41.9
French & German: 41.9


@Stuvanè
Didn't know that people from Venezia score so higher for Italian. Interesting.
I haven't checked all my matches/connections with confirmed or presumed Venetian ancestry, but I did open many of them. I found one who scores 86.7% Italian. Torzio's is also among the highest I've seen so far, with 76.6%. However, for most of these matches/connections I've checked, the Italian %s now seems to range from ~48% (such for a woman with 4 grandparents from San Vito di Cadore-BL) to ~70% (such for myself), filling all the space in between.

 

[New Englander]

23andme Update

These are my comparisons before and after the update. Would have done this in the previous post, but forgot the uploading trick.

 

[Stuvanè]

@Riverman
@ Regio X


today I checked other results from users of 23 and me (Tuscans mostly, and I confirm that the story remains the same), so the more I consider the matter the less I understand. I suspect that just as 23andMe has "expanded" this central-southern Italian cluster up to the Po, it has done the same with the French-German towards the south, crossing the Alps, always with a view to what now seems to me a hyper -simplification, perhaps aimed at getting rid of the various “Broadly” components.

The northern / continental genetic influence on northern Italy is undeniable, but in the first place I would attribute the bulk of these genetic contributions to prehistoric / protohistoric periods, and here the major suspect is the expansion of the peoples of the Urnfields culture in the late age of the European bronze. In this context, there is a tendency to overestimate the Lombard influence. Personally, I immediately avoid the positions of the Nordicists and the like who would see Lombards in every canton of Northern Italy but I find those of those who minimize it to the extreme just as laughable.
I believe that the Lombard one was a minority component in absolute numerical terms (although perhaps a little more consistent than the minimum estimates attributed to it), whose alleged genetic trace does not seem completely uniform, but rather discontinuously scattered over a territory that in any case from a demographic point of view it had suffered from the Greco-Gothic war and the Justinian plague. Which is why I wouldn't rule out some local bottleneck phenomenon. (For the same reason, wanting to be picky at the micro-local level, there could have been some fairly significant influences also from other populations similar or related to Goths and Lombards headquartered in the late imperial age). It therefore doesn't seem appropriate to speak of their impact equal to zero, but the general picture, whether we are talking about contributions from the Bronze Age or the early Middle Ages, in the end doesn't change much, because the Northern Italians in all analyzes and PCAs in circulation, however, fall within the cluster of Southern Europeans, somewhat shifted towards the Iberian regions and southern France.

Let's do a more detailed and local analysis. Excluding the Val d'Aosta which has a history of its own and is Italian only administratively, some Occitan valleys in Piedmont or the Alto Adige / South Tyrol, the culturally Italian and / or Italian-speaking northern regions for centuries, in which the transalpine or more specifically "Germanic" is really marked, recent and often also documentable under the historical aspect, it is located above all in the internal Veneto and Friuli (to the point that Friuli becomes in practice a sort of Germanic-Slavic outlier when it is compared with the average of the Italian samples). In Northern Italy, along the Po river, between Lombardy and Emilia-Romagna, autosomal make-up is much less extreme and less unbalanced towards continental Europe. Similarly to the Longobard presence on the same territories, even on the Gallic one there would be a long discourse to open, it is a very anomalous Celtization: the so-called Cisalpine Gauls deal with a strange melting-pot that involves them with previous and more numerous substrates still well present, descendants of proto-Villanovan or Villanovan groups and others. Briefly speaking, we have before us a sort of variegated “koinè” where previous presences of Etruscan or Ligurian extraction stand out, which therefore assimilates something transalpine, without being completely transformed (see in Bologna and surroundings).

This is to say that there is certainly a considerable internal variability in Northern Italy, especially between the Alpine border areas and the Po Valley proper, "more southern" than the other areas, but it is difficult for me to think to the point that its inhabitants suddenly become crypto-Frosinone / Abruzzo / Samnites with some northern nuances. Should we think of such an intense and widespread Romanization of the territory? The case of the Venetian woman of the lagoon is perhaps the most striking of those I have seen: the coastal Veneto / Polesine is certainly different from the internal Veneto and the Dolomite area, because it veers towards the Ferrarese area and is in line with the Po Valley cluster. . We certainly admit an ancient Etruscan component, some ancient Greek / Aegean influence (let's not forget that we are in the immediate vicinity of Adria) that make it more "Mediterranean". But - for God's sake - reaching almost the same values ​​as in Ciociaria or in Terra di Lavoro? If confirmed, there would be tons of more or less recent studies on the peninsula's cline to be thrown away, which instead tell us something quite different.


See the various contributions reported here

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...ure-in-Italy-using-ancient-and-modern-samples


Now I'm absolutely aware that when a reference sample is established, short blankets are created that always keep something uncovered, but here it would be really nice to understand with what criteria 23andMe has developed this gigantic "Italian" cluster that travels practically homogeneous and undisturbed for over 700 km .... Is it actually something whose genetic signal is found more or less in every corner of Italy? the common denominator of all Italians? Is it representative of an area that has suffered less external influences / contaminations? Is it intended to be a reference to the ancient Latium, perhaps the Augustan one between Lazio and Campania, or in any case to that territory most involved in the ethnogenesis of the ancient Romans? Or is it trivially the area where most of the Italian users of 23andMe come from?
In some ways the choice seems even paradoxical to me because - again according to the usual studies of the Italian cline - it is precisely between Central and Southern Italy that the genetic gap becomes more sensitive (while North and Center are more contiguous, with Tuscany that even seems an offshoot of Northern Italy).

 

[Stuvanè]

Btw...A couple of curiosities related to close relatives:


- I notice that 23andMe greatly raises the share of Italians in Regio X, by at least 10 points compared to his parents. Is it a difference due to updates not yet made on his parents' oracles or what else?


- Below there are the results compared to me and my closest match of 23ndMe, which is in all likelihood a fairly close third degree cousin (I don't know him personally but I know he's from Ferrara and surroundings). Before the update, our autosomal was virtually identical to each other. Now we look like different things. What the hell is 23andMe doing?

Before

View attachment 12469

After

View attachment 12470

 

[torzio]

@Riverman
@ Regio X


today I checked other results from users of 23 and me (Tuscans mostly, and I confirm that the story remains the same), so the more I consider the matter the less I understand. I suspect that just as 23andMe has "expanded" this central-southern Italian cluster up to the Po, it has done the same with the French-German towards the south, crossing the Alps, always with a view to what now seems to me a hyper -simplification, perhaps aimed at getting rid of the various “Broadly” components.

The northern / continental genetic influence on northern Italy is undeniable, but in the first place I would attribute the bulk of these genetic contributions to prehistoric / protohistoric periods, and here the major suspect is the expansion of the peoples of the Urnfields culture in the late age of the European bronze. In this context, there is a tendency to overestimate the Lombard influence. Personally, I immediately avoid the positions of the Nordicists and the like who would see Lombards in every canton of Northern Italy but I find those of those who minimize it to the extreme just as laughable.
I believe that the Lombard one was a minority component in absolute numerical terms (although perhaps a little more consistent than the minimum estimates attributed to it), whose alleged genetic trace does not seem completely uniform, but rather discontinuously scattered over a territory that in any case from a demographic point of view it had suffered from the Greco-Gothic war and the Justinian plague. Which is why I wouldn't rule out some local bottleneck phenomenon. (For the same reason, wanting to be picky at the micro-local level, there could have been some fairly significant influences also from other populations similar or related to Goths and Lombards headquartered in the late imperial age). It therefore doesn't seem appropriate to speak of their impact equal to zero, but the general picture, whether we are talking about contributions from the Bronze Age or the early Middle Ages, in the end doesn't change much, because the Northern Italians in all analyzes and PCAs in circulation, however, fall within the cluster of Southern Europeans, somewhat shifted towards the Iberian regions and southern France.

Let's do a more detailed and local analysis. Excluding the Val d'Aosta which has a history of its own and is Italian only administratively, some Occitan valleys in Piedmont or the Alto Adige / South Tyrol, the culturally Italian and / or Italian-speaking northern regions for centuries, in which the transalpine or more specifically "Germanic" is really marked, recent and often also documentable under the historical aspect, it is located above all in the internal Veneto and Friuli (to the point that Friuli becomes in practice a sort of Germanic-Slavic outlier when it is compared with the average of the Italian samples). In Northern Italy, along the Po river, between Lombardy and Emilia-Romagna, autosomal make-up is much less extreme and less unbalanced towards continental Europe. Similarly to the Longobard presence on the same territories, even on the Gallic one there would be a long discourse to open, it is a very anomalous Celtization: the so-called Cisalpine Gauls deal with a strange melting-pot that involves them with previous and more numerous substrates still well present, descendants of proto-Villanovan or Villanovan groups and others. Briefly speaking, we have before us a sort of variegated “koinè” where previous presences of Etruscan or Ligurian extraction stand out, which therefore assimilates something transalpine, without being completely transformed (see in Bologna and surroundings).

This is to say that there is certainly a considerable internal variability in Northern Italy, especially between the Alpine border areas and the Po Valley proper, "more southern" than the other areas, but it is difficult for me to think to the point that its inhabitants suddenly become crypto-Frosinone / Abruzzo / Samnites with some northern nuances. Should we think of such an intense and widespread Romanization of the territory? The case of the Venetian woman of the lagoon is perhaps the most striking of those I have seen: the coastal Veneto / Polesine is certainly different from the internal Veneto and the Dolomite area, because it veers towards the Ferrarese area and is in line with the Po Valley cluster. . We certainly admit an ancient Etruscan component, some ancient Greek / Aegean influence (let's not forget that we are in the immediate vicinity of Adria) that make it more "Mediterranean". But - for God's sake - reaching almost the same values ​​as in Ciociaria or in Terra di Lavoro? If confirmed, there would be tons of more or less recent studies on the peninsula's cline to be thrown away, which instead tell us something quite different.


See the various contributions reported here

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...ure-in-Italy-using-ancient-and-modern-samples


Now I'm absolutely aware that when a reference sample is established, short blankets are created that always keep something uncovered, but here it would be really nice to understand with what criteria 23andMe has developed this gigantic "Italian" cluster that travels practically homogeneous and undisturbed for over 700 km .... Is it actually something whose genetic signal is found more or less in every corner of Italy? the common denominator of all Italians? Is it representative of an area that has suffered less external influences / contaminations? Is it intended to be a reference to the ancient Latium, perhaps the Augustan one between Lazio and Campania, or in any case to that territory most involved in the ethnogenesis of the ancient Romans? Or is it trivially the area where most of the Italian users of 23andMe come from?
In some ways the choice seems even paradoxical to me because - again according to the usual studies of the Italian cline - it is precisely between Central and Southern Italy that the genetic gap becomes more sensitive (while North and Center are more contiguous, with Tuscany that even seems an offshoot of Northern Italy).

I do not know what Latitude has do do with southern europeans

The bulk of north-italy is above 45 degrees latitude ......this equals central france and not southern france which sits at 42 degrees ( same as central italy )

Central Italy and southern france are the same in latitude

.......................

The lombards, Burgundians and Visigoths, Ostrogoths and vandals all came from roughly the same area of modern Germany and Poland,


I have been saying for many years that the alpine regions regardless of nation should be treated separately to correct their ethnicity and the ethnicity of the nations they border

 

[torzio]

one of my sons



italian up by 11 %

spain completely removed , was at 4.5%

French and german up 11 %


..............................................

I went up 31% in Italian and 3% in french and german


I wonder if it is due to my family tree finally being linked within 23andme ...................they only allow family trees from 1750