Politics Should Crimea be an independent country? (Russian-Ukrainian conflict)

[LeBrok]

It was the union, so?

Union means a state made of distinct populations. In proper Union their is law and guidelines describing under what conditions a country can join the Union, and also under what conditions it can separate.
What were the conditions of separation in Yugoslavia?

You call starting a war a spirit of freedom?

Bosnians and Croats did, but they were pushed to do it the wrong, unconstitutional and illegitimate way by you know whom.

The spirit of freedom and self governance?

I neither referred to the war nor it could be understood from our exchange.
Besides, did you hear about Independence Wars?

 

[Ike]

Union means a state made of distinct populations. In proper Union their is law and guidelines describing under what conditions a country can join the Union, and also under what conditions it can separate.
What were the conditions of separation in Yugoslavia?

There were no countries joined in this union. Neither Slovenes, Croatians or Bosniaks ever had the country before Yugoslavia. The only two countries that joined the Union were Serbia and Montenegro (as Kingdoms). That was in 1918. After the WW2, communist Yugoslavia was made as Union of people.

"On 31 January 1946, the new constitution of Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, modeled after the Soviet Union, established six republics, an autonomous province, and an autonomous district that were part of SR Serbia. The federal capital was Belgrade." (source) They were not ethnic, and were never intended to be the lines of future separation, which was forbidden by the constitution. Constitution referred to peoples as a "base units" of this Union. It was not a union of administrative zones.

So for example, Macedonians had the right to claim independence, but not did Republic of Macedonia. Serbs could have claimed independence from Yugoslavia, but not republic of Serbia. EU and USA knew this, and they knew that if they recognize the independence of the administrative zone of Croatia that the war would brake up. And they did recognize it as a sovereign state of Croatia, although they had no sovereignty over that area, although the international law did not allow that, although Yugoslav constitution disallowed that, although they knew it will start a war.

The way this was done was unlawful and illegitimate from all sides and I must inform you that formally Yugoslavia still exists. EU ans USA played very dirty and disgusting part in starting the war here.

I neither referred to the war nor it could be understood from our exchange.
Besides, did you hear about Independence Wars?

Yes I've heard of Independence war, but did you hear about the law and the democracy? You can't win an Independence war in Carolina and then claim the parts of New Zealand and Canada, just because the Crown referred to those territories under the same (for example "The colonies"), and especially not if New Zealanders and Canadians don't want to be in your "Independent country".

 

[LeBrok]

There were no countries joined in this union. Neither Slovenes, Croatians or Bosniaks ever had the country before Yugoslavia. The only two countries that joined the Union were Serbia and Montenegro (as Kingdoms). That was in 1918. After the WW2, communist Yugoslavia was made as Union of people.

Thanks for explanation.
We have a similar situation in Eastern Ukraine now with majority Russian ethnics. By your standards, or strict constitutional rules, Ukraine shouldn't let them separate and has all the right to kill them if needed to keep country as one, right?

"On 31 January 1946, the new constitution of Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, modeled after the Soviet Union, established six republics, an autonomous province, and an autonomous district that were part of SR Serbia. The federal capital was Belgrade." (source) They were not ethnic,

Oh com'on, there was a reason of establishing these autonomous provinces. This didn't happen just because someone wanted to draw lines on the map.

and were never intended to be the lines of future separation,

not intended but useful after all. People of today decide there future, not the people of the past.

which was forbidden by the constitution. Constitution referred to peoples as a "base units" of this Union. It was not a union of administrative zones.

Yes, for the people and by the people. It is for the people and they should decide about their future. Country is for the people, but it looks like you want to sacrifice people for the country, and if they don't want to voluntarily, you'll show them...

So for example, Macedonians had the right to claim independence, but not did Republic of Macedonia. Serbs could have claimed independence from Yugoslavia, but not republic of Serbia. EU and USA knew this, and they knew that if they recognize the independence of the administrative zone of Croatia that the war would brake up. And they did recognize it as a sovereign state of Croatia, although they had no sovereignty over that area,

Again, try thinking "people", not only the state. What would be Yugoslavia without the people? It is all about people.

The way this was done was unlawful and illegitimate from all sides and I must inform you that formally Yugoslavia still exists. EU ans USA played very dirty and disgusting part in starting the war here.

People had spoken and decided to separate. What would you do to stop them? Kill them all? There was no other solution but to let them go.

What was the reason that only Serbia wanted Yugoslavia and not any other provinces?

You are lucky they didn't join forces against Serbia. You wouldn't had a country now.

 

[Ike]

Thanks for explanation.
We have a similar situation in Eastern Ukraine now with majority Russian ethnics. By your standards, or strict constitutional rules, Ukraine shouldn't let them separate and has all the right to kill them if needed to keep country as one, right?

What do you mean 'by my standards'? I'm pro independence. Why are you turning this around?

Oh com'on, there was a reason of establishing these autonomous provinces. This didn't happen just because someone wanted to draw lines on the map.

Autonmous provinces are of no importance right now, they have nothing to do with departure of Yugoslavia. We're talking about republics.

not intended but useful after all. People of today decide there future, not the people of the past.

So why weren't people let decide their future? Was there a legitimate plebiscite? No there was not.

Yes, for the people and by the people. It is for the people and they should decide about their future. Country is for the people, but it looks like you want to sacrifice people for the country, and if they don't want to voluntarily, you'll show them...

People did choose their future, but EU and USA didn't let them live like they want. Why were they so eager to form a bunch of new countries, relying an a clumsy drawn administrative zones - drawn by, from your side so hated, Soviet loving communists? It is interesting that West is so full of potty mouth for all of the Soviet legacy, but when it comes to the country borders - then Soviets were great I know the reason why, but do you?

Again, try thinking "people", not only the state. What would be Yugoslavia without the people? It is all about people.

I am thinking about the people, you're the one thinking about states. You are supporting policy that insisted on country lines drawn in 1943, that were not based on reality....

People had spoken and decided to separate. What would you do to stop them? Kill them all? There was no other solution but to let them go.

Let them go where? Nobody kept them anywhere. They were free to go from day one. What are you talking about? Do you even have the basic knowledge bout what happened in the region? It surely doesn't sound like that...

What was the reason that only Serbia wanted Yugoslavia and not any other provinces?

Go ask Serbians. I won't explain their agenda.

You are lucky they didn't join forces against Serbia. You wouldn't had a country now.

I don't have it anyways...all thanx to you and guys alike. Thank you for starting the war in my country, thank you for destroying my country. Thank you for leaving me homeless....

 

[Luan]

Good luck to Bosnia in the FIFA World Cup first time entry.

 

[Vedun]

I want it Russian and Ukrainian / Malorussian (sMall Russia), without these political and ideological games. I do not see any borders between Slavic nations

 

[Vedun]

And here I have a little thought about Crimea, for Russian, Ukrainian readers especially...
The word "Crimea" as a word mutated from much older term, Kurum (Krim), which simply means Heram in old Etruscan; this is where the Masonic "Hiram- Abiff" derives from as a Hebraic occult "builder of the Solomon's Temple(which was a description of Horus's temple from Edfu) or Hram (Hiram) - Hram in Slavic); "Temple"(Hram) on a Hora/Gora (Hurum) & as a fortress...
Another name of this country was Turika or "Taurika" which means a "bull"; Tur in old Russian and also Greek...

 

[LeBrok]

Russian rebels left Sloviansk yesterday. Is this a sign of a beginning of an end to Russian insurgent in Ukraine? For me it doesn't look like Russians have much of appetite for independance war in Ukraine.

 

[Yetos]

i do wonder

why Catalunia may be under dwellers demand?
Vasquez have the right
why SCotland can be autonomous
why Flanders
why Kossovo or SlavoMakedonia or Bosnia etc
why Chechia and Slovakia
and not Crimaia or Slaviansk?

are we still think like in Cold war times?

Russian rebels left Sloviansk yesterday. Is this a sign of a beginning of an end to Russian insurgent in Ukraine? For me it doesn't look like Russians have much of appetite for independance war in Ukraine.

People had spoken and decided to separate. What would you do to stop them? Kill them all? There was no other solution but to let them go.

What was the reason that only Serbia wanted Yugoslavia and not any other provinces?

You are lucky they didn't join forces against Serbia. You wouldn't had a country now.

in the last elections in SLaviansk Local people voted 55-60% against the rest Ukraine vote,
they want and decide to stay nearby Russia,
Why Ukraine or Eu does not respect their decision
Besides did you see or hear any referendum about Slaviansk dwellers what they want? NO

are we still think like in Cold War times?

and who is the quilty and who the innocent?
Slaviansk local rabels or West of Kiev extra-nationalists (non Slaviansk dwellers)????

 

[Ike]

Exactly where the problem lies. "Democrats" use democracy as an excuse only when it serves the purpose of subordinating. If it serves to free people, then it's illegal.

 

[Sile]

Exactly where the problem lies. "Democrats" use democracy as an excuse only when it serves the purpose of subordinating. If it serves to free people, then it's illegal.

there is no democracy

We will see the democracy in the Scottish independence vote in November.............If they win , Will they be given independence or will The English march troops in to stop the independence.
Same with Catalan region when they have their vote.
Another a vote to split Belgium, the vote is stopped.

The Venice region already voted 89% in favour to split from Italy in March 2014...........Italin Police and Military moved in to stop any independence movement..........this is how democracy works in Europe. No Democracy, everything stays as it is for better or worse

 

[Sile]

Russian rebels left Sloviansk yesterday. Is this a sign of a beginning of an end to Russian insurgent in Ukraine? For me it doesn't look like Russians have much of appetite for independance war in Ukraine.

Comments are that the Ukraine government will order people to forgo their Russian passports and take Ukrainian ones or leave the Ukraine country

 

[LeBrok]

there is no democracy

We will see the democracy in the Scottish independence vote in November.............If they win , Will they be given independence or will The English march troops in to stop the independence.
Same with Catalan region when they have their vote.
Another a vote to split Belgium, the vote is stopped.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_independence_referendum,_2014

The Venetian independence referendum of 2014 was an unofficial, non-binding, online and privately organised poll held among residents of Veneto, one of the 20 regions of Italy, 16–21 March 2014. The vote, known also as the "digital plebiscite" or "Plebiscito.eu", was promoted by Plebiscite 2013, a Venetian nationalist organisation led by Gianluca Busato.

[h=2]Critique of turnout and results[edit][/h]Turnout and results were questioned by many news sources based on publicly available website traffic statistics released by Alexa Internet and similar providers. According to the critics, throughout the duration of the poll, the website received approximately 135,000 visits (just 3.6% of eligible voters). Moreover, a significant proportion of this traffic came from outside Italy, with 10% coming from Santiago, Chile alone.^[6][7][8][9]

I don't mind Independent Venice if it is done in real referendum, with international overseeing. It looks like it was just an internet polling.

The Venice region already voted 89% in favour to split from Italy in March 2014...........Italin Police and Military moved in to stop any independence movement...

Where did they move in, to Lega Veneta office?

 

[LeBrok]

i do wonder

why Catalunia may be under dwellers demand?
Vasquez have the right
why SCotland can be autonomous
why Flanders
why Kossovo or SlavoMakedonia or Bosnia etc
why Chechia and Slovakia
and not Crimaia or Slaviansk?

are we still think like in Cold war times?

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Long time no see. How is the "Occupy" movement going? Your silence was so long that I was afraid you ended up in Greek prison, without internet access.

 

[LeBrok]

I want it Russian and Ukrainian / Malorussian (sMall Russia), without these political and ideological games. I do not see any borders between Slavic nations

Why only Slavic bordes? You don't like other people?

 

[Sile]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_independence_referendum,_2014


I don't mind Independent Venice if it is done in real referendum, with international overseeing. It looks like it was just an internet polling.



Where did they move in, to Lega Veneta office?

You are forbidden to have votes of independence in Italian ...its illegal.....that's Italian democracy ( exact same thing will happen in Spain ), so now that 2.7 million of 2.9 Million voted for independence out of a total voting populace of 3.8 million ( outside veneti not included, ie, Australia, brazil, belgium, france etc etc ). The italian government has decided to allow the politicians to cast their vote to allow or not allow a new vote. This vote favored a new vote and was 30 to 12 as inspected by the EU..............I do not know why only 42 where chosen, but I know they represent all of Italy.

proper term is Liga Veneta and Lega lombardia, Lega piemontese or Lega Nord


I favour every culture to have a vote for self rule , thats democracy .............if the nation is so upset about certain cultures wanting independence, maybe they should treat these people with more dignity and respect or whatever else that they need.
It's about time this UN start to help the people instead of helping certain politicians/political parties to remain in power

 

[LeBrok]

You are forbidden to have votes of independence in Italian ...its illegal.....that's Italian democracy ( exact same thing will happen in Spain ), so now that 2.7 million of 2.9 Million voted for independence out of a total voting populace of 3.8 million ( outside veneti not included, ie, Australia, brazil, belgium, france etc etc ). The italian government has decided to allow the politicians to cast their vote to allow or not allow a new vote. This vote favored a new vote and was 30 to 12 as inspected by the EU..............I do not know why only 42 where chosen, but I know they represent all of Italy.

proper term is Liga Veneta and Lega lombardia, Lega piemontese or Lega Nord


I favour every culture to have a vote for self rule , thats democracy .............if the nation is so upset about certain cultures wanting independence, maybe they should treat these people with more dignity and respect or whatever else that they need.
It's about time this UN start to help the people instead of helping certain politicians/political parties to remain in power

My point was, that till we have a proper referendum with independent control by people impartial to the issue, we won't know the truth. It is hard to take seriously any referendum executed only by one side, the side emotionally strongly related to this.

 

[Yetos]

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Long time no see. How is the "Occupy" movement going? Your silence was so long that I was afraid you ended up in Greek prison, without internet access.

HAHAHA

watch the results in Last European Parliament, and you will see,
tremendous raise for radical left and extra nationalists as all of Europe,
Europe will not be USA, we will follow our own path,
we don't want Goldman sachs and Draki, we don't want the huge corp.. that US had once,
US Banking system capitalism is over, we will Europe to follow, as we did not let follow ex Communism,
Long Live Free world,
No nations or States for the corporation, but Corporation for the nation and state,
No I did went to prison,
my PC was broken to pieces and HD was removed by 'antiterror' govermental troops, so I waited months to take me a new one,

is very good, excellent, but my Adsl is slow since is being 'watched' by CIA MI5 MIT ΚΥΠ MOSANT SIEMENS C4I KGB etc etc.
yesterday I saw a man dress like Al kainta warrior, I Think even Seichs 'watch me'

 

[Fire Haired14]

Why only Slavic bordes? You don't like other people?

Why only tolerate people you see as tolerant, and wage war against those you see as intolerant. You don't like differnt people? Stop the act "Mr. Tolerant".

 

[LeBrok]

Why only tolerate people you see as tolerant, and wage war against those you see as intolerant. You don't like differnt people? Stop the act "Mr. Tolerant".

You don't make sense at all. In all nations and ethnicities you will find tolerant and intolerant people. You can't put all of them into the same bag, proclaiming Slavs good and friendly and dislike others. As in case of Vedun liking only Slavs, based on vague connection of some old pagan religion. Do you agree with Vedun's position?