Should Russians be considered European?

[bigsnake49]

Russians overall are 70% European (varies by region), in comparison, Greeks are at 44%, Turks at 28%.

Excuse me but every DNA company I have tested with tells me that I am 90-94% European so either they are wrong or you are wrong.

 

[Ailchu]

senseless to talk about "european" dna imo. those russians who live on the european continent are obviously european simply because they live in that region. culture wise it also does't make much sense to say that they are european or not. i'd rather say that they aren't really part of the western world.

 

[Angela]

Expredel had better watch his step. We don't deal in unsubstantiated claims, nor in pseudo-science.

If one want's to talk about "Western Civilization" it includes, in addition to Greco-Roman civilization, as two of the most important elements, the Renaissance and the Enlightenment, neither of which saw much participation by Eastern Europe. It's unfortunate but true. Those movements created a frame of reference, of thought, which is more difficult to acquire afterwards. Being under a totalitarian system which blocked access to most of the developments of the second half of the 20th century didn't help.

 

[Northener]

Dutch ethnicity still exists in the countryside and the periphery, but not in the big cities any more.
Unless you redefine Dutch ethnicity.

I'm not aware of Dutch ethnicity. In genetic sense for example I'm closer to the Danes than to South Dutch.....

 

[Mordred]

Expredel had better watch his step. We don't deal in unsubstantiated claims, nor in pseudo-science.

If one want's to talk about "Western Civilization" it includes, in addition to Greco-Roman civilization, as two of the most important elements, the Renaissance and the Enlightenment, neither of which saw much participation by Eastern Europe. It's unfortunate but true. Those movements created a frame of reference, of thought, which is more difficult to acquire afterwards. Being under a totalitarian system which blocked access to most of the developments of the second half of the 20th century didn't help.

How about Iberia which was under Muslim Arab rule for 700+ years. Russia is within our Nordic sphere and very much European.

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[Angela]

Now you're talking racist B.S. of the Nordicist variety.

P.S. I wasn't talking about whether Russians are European or not. I don't get into such discussions, unlike Polako, who claims Southern Italians aren't European. Of course, using those kinds of standards Russians aren't European either, given all that "East Asian" like admixture in many of them.

I was responding to someone talking about what movements of thought make up "Western Civilization", which used to be a required course in American Universities. The four major influences were and are: Greek Civilization, Roman Civilization, the Renaissance, and the Enlightenment.

Some might add Democracy (including Constitutional Monarchies) and Capitalism, which stem from the prior four.

Iberia became a unified non-Muslim country by 1492, although the vast majority of the country was under the rule of the Christian Kings hundreds of years before, so, they partook in all four.

Unfortunately, the Russians and many other Eastern block countries didn't. Heck, the poor Russians were still ruled by an absolute monarch, an autocrat, until after the First World War, and their industrialization was spotty and inefficient. Heck, they still had serfs tied to the land and antiquated Medieval agriculture.

None of this is news to the Russians. I've read not only most of the Russian poets and novelists, but also their essayists. That feeling of insecurity, of inferiority, if you will, is absolutely present. In the more gullible it leads to conspiracy theories like the ones proposing that all of European history is a hoax. Better to wipe it all out than to admit you were virtually not part of most of the seminal moments.

If the west had understood just how "backward" their system remained, there would have been less fear of them and perhaps the push which led to the fall of Communism and the U.S.S.R. could have happened earlier.

If the Russians hadn't let that sense of inferiority cripple them by making it impossible to admit that they weren't doing certain things as well as they were done in the west, they might have been more formidable.

 

[Mordred]

Angela, what are you talking about. Nordicist? Sounds bizarre. I mentioned Russian authors or poets because they can be grouped within Nordic culture-bound elements. This has nothing to do with race, language, or ethnicity. It has to do with how you for example translate reality into written words. It's like music that flows in one direction or the other. It's very clear also how authors from the cold, dark edges of Europe, in this case, the north, in their writings and also books are in awe of southern Europe. Even though Russia had a high culture not experienced here in Sweden, where St. Petersburg has an impressive range of ballet, opera, classical music, theater, and galleries. It is not for nothing that the city is called Russia's cultural capital.
The content is sometimes second to how it's written and why. It's very obvious that our most beloved writer, Strindberg has its inspiration in mostly radical Russian litterateurs.

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[Tomenable]

Expredel had better watch his step. We don't deal in unsubstantiated claims, nor in pseudo-science.

If one want's to talk about "Western Civilization" it includes, in addition to Greco-Roman civilization, as two of the most important elements, the Renaissance and the Enlightenment, neither of which saw much participation by Eastern Europe. It's unfortunate but true. Those movements created a frame of reference, of thought, which is more difficult to acquire afterwards. Being under a totalitarian system which blocked access to most of the developments of the second half of the 20th century didn't help.

If you are using the typical American definition of Eastern Europe - i.e. everything east of Germany and Austria - then at least the western half of Eastern Europe definitely did experience the Renaissance and the Enlightenment. This includes even areas of present-day Belarus and Ukraine, which were parts of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth during the Renaissance and during the Enlightenment.

I think Russia also experienced the Enlightenment during the 1700s, even though it had skipped the Renaissance earlier.

Here is a map made by American geographer William Channing Woodbridge (1794-1845) which shows the world's estimated population in year 1826, together with a breakdown by race, religion, form of government, and degree of enlightenment:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Channing_Woodbridge

https://i.redd.it/cnkn0q4edxn21.jpg

 

[Tomenable]

Double post.

 

[Mordred]

If you are using the typical American definition of Eastern Europe - i.e. everything east of Germany and Austria - then at least the western half of Eastern Europe definitely did experience the Renaissance and the Enlightenment. This includes even areas of present-day Belarus and Ukraine, which were parts of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth during the Renaissance and during the Enlightenment.

I think Russia also experienced the Enlightenment during the 1700s, even though it had skipped the Renaissance earlier.

Here is a map made by American geographer William Channing Woodbridge (1794-1845) which shows the world's estimated population in year 1826, together with a breakdown by race, religion, form of government, and degree of enlightenment:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Channing_Woodbridge

https://i.redd.it/cnkn0q4edxn21.jpg

Of course they have. Those things did we learn in school. I believe it was 7th or 8th grade, here in Sweden.

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[Angela]

Angela, what are you talking about. Nordicist? Sounds bizarre. I mentioned Russian authors or poets because they can be grouped within Nordic culture-bound elements. This has nothing to do with race, language, or ethnicity. It has to do with how you for example translate reality into written words. It's like music that flows in one direction or the other. It's very clear also how authors from the cold, dark edges of Europe, in this case, the north, in their writings and also books are in awe of southern Europe. Even though Russia had a high culture not experienced here in Sweden, where St. Petersburg has an impressive range of ballet, opera, classical music, theater, and galleries. It is not for nothing that the city is called Russia's cultural capital.
The content is sometimes second to how it's written and why. It's very obvious that our most beloved writer, Strindberg has its inspiration in mostly radical Russian litterateurs.

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I have no time to go down this rabbit hole with you. I'll explain how I see it and then I'm out. You're entitled, of course, to differ in your interpretation.

The "high culture" of St. Petersburg, in my view, was often French and Italian (opera and ballet), and was patronized by a French speaking aristocracy living in a city designed by Italians. It was the thinnest possible veneer over a completely uncomprehending mass of serfs tied to the land, no better than slaves. To be even an illiterate peasant is one thing; to be a slave who believes his Czar was ordained by God to be an autocrat is another.

Catherine did work mightily, for all her faults, to drag Russia westward, and to bring some measure of western thought into Russia, but not to the extent that it impinged on her complete authority. Did they teach you that in Sweden?

Of course Russia is a European country, but it participated only very late and for only the briefest time in the currents of western thought before being isolated and imprisoned once more by an autocratic regime.

For how many years has Russia had a non-authoritarian, democratically elected regime? A dozen, perhaps, if that, in between the World Wars? There are those who think the Russians like living in an autocracy. Their only two revolutions, the Bolshevik one, and the one after their system collapsed from within, just led to dictatorships under another name. Where are "their" mass protests?

I wouldn't go that far, but I see why some observers would think that.

The same thing holds for capitalism. There is no real capitalism on a grass roots level in Russia, from what I can see. Its economy is run mostly by former KGB men who took over state run industries and looted them. There is no tradition of individual traders or small businesses. Heck, even the Communist Chinese have that.

So, if someone were to ask me if Russia is part of Western Civilization, I'd have to say only partly.

 

[Mordred]

Angela, I know all of this. It's basic history. It's not what I meant or talked about. You may reread what I have written or we just drop it. Yes, we do differ in this area and it may be also because this part of Europe is within a different direction not only of development but closer to us and we just view things, as I said, very differently. I'm not surprised. We just had a different time frame. Sweden wasn't even fully Christian in some areas until the late 17th century. People were still pagans, even though Protestantism was widespread, of course. Russia went through and still is, in progress. It doesn't mean though they had and have high culture, where, isn't important, they got the taste of it, and did it well. I won't deny that travelling outside of Moscow would throw you back to what it would look like here in the 17th century. That wasn't my point or post either. I meant many places in other countries experienced the same thing. Look at areas in Ireland or Scotland for example. There are many more and my understanding is it's not bound to Russia only.

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[ihype02]

If you are using the typical American definition of Eastern Europe - i.e. everything east of Germany and Austria - then at least the western half of Eastern Europe definitely did experience the Renaissance and the Enlightenment. This includes even areas of present-day Belarus and Ukraine, which were parts of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth during the Renaissance and during the Enlightenment.

I think Russia also experienced the Enlightenment during the 1700s, even though it had skipped the Renaissance earlier.

Here is a map made by American geographer William Channing Woodbridge (1794-1845) which shows the world's estimated population in year 1826, together with a breakdown by race, religion, form of government, and degree of enlightenment:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Channing_Woodbridge

https://i.redd.it/cnkn0q4edxn21.jpg

So many Poles dislike the term "Eastern European" to be applied to Poland. I consider everything east of Italy, Austria and Germany in Europe as Eastern Europe. That also includes Greece too.

 

[Mordred]

So many Poles dislike the term "Eastern European" to be applied to Poland. I consider everything east of Italy, Austria and Germany in Europe as Eastern Europe. That also includes Greece too.

Does it mean you consider us (Sweden) or Finland eastern as well?

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[ihype02]

Does it mean you consider us (Sweden) or Finland eastern as well?

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Not Sweden. I am not sure for Finland.

 

[Davidtab]

Mordred, only a little area in Iberia was under muslim rule for 700+ years, the Granada Kingdom, present Granada, Almeria and Malaga provinces of Andalusia.

My land, northern Galicia, was never under muslim rule. Porto, northern Portugal, was under muslim rule only for 150 years, and this city is in the Duero line, for example.

Muslim rule of Iberia for 700+ years is another myth about Spain, and about it... Albania or Bosnia are not europeans because they are muslims? Swedish were not europeans until IX-X centuries because they were not Christians? If Iberia was not reconquered by northern christian iberian kingdoms, Iberians would not be europeans because they would be muslims being genetically? what are we talking about, culturally, genetically? should we consider europeans people like northeners heavy in steppe ancestry because steppe ancestry came from Asia?

Russians are, of course, Europeans, I can not understand how a man can ask himself about it...

These kind of items are pure trash.

 

[Mordred]

I honestly don't know what you are talking about. I would never say what you are implying. Not any of it at all.

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[Mordred]

Not Sweden. I am not sure for Finland.

Well I can't debate personal opinions.

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[ihype02]

...............

 

[Expredel]

Excuse me but every DNA company I have tested with tells me that I am 90-94% European so either they are wrong or you are wrong.

By my definition you are in fact 100% European.

With a little deductive reasoning you can probably figure out the proxy I used to answer the original question.