Politics Should Turkey Join The EU?

That's quite an imbecile opinion.




Contiguous does not mean part of - it means contiguous, i.e., neighbour. Now, if it is neighbour, it is not ours. It's neighbour. It's the other placed nearby us. By your «reasoning», Turkey would be a part of the EU because «it's contiguous» to Europe. Now, Lebanon is contiguous to Turkey, and Israel is contiguous to Lebanon, and Egypt is contiguous to Israel, and Sudan is contiguous to Egypt, and so on... within one year, South Africa would be a part of the EU because «it's contiguous».

So, the above objection is futile.




Malta and Cyprus, and UK and Ireland, and Iceland, belong to another area, entirely European - they are islands, but not pieces of another continent.
So, the above objection is futile and dishonest.




Yes, I can - Ethnically European is Indo-European, or pre-indo-european, like the Basque. Turkey is foreign to that.
So, the above objection is futile and dishonest.




Oh, really. So, Attaturk created an entire new nation, perhaps with aliens from Mars... the entire Turkish past was erased, I see. Funny that still today the oh so modern Turkish State considers as a major offense that someone, in any part of the world, recognizes the genocide against the Armenians, which ocurred before 1923. Now, which could be the reason for that, since Turkey did not exist before 1923? :innocent:




First of all, any secular Muslim country is easily turned into a radical Islamic country. Secondly, today's Turkey is getting more and more Islamist by the day. Erdogan is not really secular. Turkey is not acting in a secular way and is against Freedom of Speech in Europe, the very essence of the European spirit.




No. In fact, I want no Christianity at all. But Muslim is even worst.




They are being oppressed in their own territory. Now, what do YOU know that can deny that?

Not to mention the situation in Cyprus, of course...



The fact-based assessment that nearly one million Armenians were chased and murdered by Turks. And many had to run away, like the Greeks. Again, what do YOU know that denies that?


Whether you or anyone else likes it or not, Turkey has been geographically, somewhat culturally, ethnically, and politically part of Europe for many centuries. The Ottoman Empire was built on the ruins of the Byzantine Empire and is considered by many historians and analysts as the Muslim successor to both the Roman and Byzantine Empires look it up. Modern Turkey has been part of Europe since the Seljuks came to Anatolia and defeated Byzantines in the Battle of Manzikert in 1071 and settled in parts of today's Turkey, then Ottomans came destroyed and ended Byzantines and claimed their territories and expanded further. Even today despite being a very small percentage (3%), Turkey is still geographically part of Europe, ethnically if you go to Central and especially Western even some Eastern parts of Turkey you will see many "European" and "Western" looking Turks with features like blue/green eyes, blond/light brown hair, white, etc. These people are a result of mixing of Turkish culture with Balkan and other European peoples mainly Greeks and other neighbouring areas. Original or pure Turks such as myself have slightly yellowish white skin, Mongoloid, Central Asian looking eyes, facial characteristics and have brown eyes and black hair. I'm not saying Turkey is Indo-European or whatever but over centuries have mixed and become part of Europe ethnically. Ataturk was an admirer of Westernism, modernism, European and Renaissance cultures and is known to have been a fan of French philosophers like Montesquieu, Voltaire and others. Despite fiercely fighting and standing up to European powers of Britain, France, Italy, Greece in and after WWI, he worked tirelessly to build a western and modern nation that resembled Europe as he saw the backwardness and isolation that old traditional Islamic values had done to the Turks. Turkey is perhaps the only Muslim majority country (99% of the nation) with a secular democracy as its system, Islamic sympathizing powers come and go in Turkey. Erdogan despite what people think is actually a perfect balance for Turkey as he is not pressing too much on Islamic policies and still trying to get Turkey in EU and improve relations with Europe. It is considered a major offense in Turkey to acknowledge the so-called Armenian Genocide because people are often biased and ignorant about what really happened in the time period. There were instances of Armenians killing Turks so it was not unprovoked, also only a small portion (mainly the perpetrators and criminals caught) were killed, the rest were deported out of the country to ensure safety of Turkish citizens. Where did you get your facts that Erdogan is against Freedom of Speech, do you have any real proof? "No. In fact, I want no Christianity at all. But Muslim is even worst." what an ignorant comment, why because Christianity is such a great tolerant religion right lol, just look at Spanish Inquisition, British, Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese, French treatment of occupied territories, such a great record isnt it? Don't by hypocritical, atheists like u are even worse, people who don't believe in God or anything are more dangerous and open to inhumane treatment and prejudice than Muslims or Christians. Also the Kurds and PKK (the terrorist organization fighting Turkey) are two different things, get ur facts straight, Turkey is not killing innocent Kurds but fighting against a dangerous radical extremist organization that is seeking territories from Turkey, Iran, Iraq and Syria (where Kurds exist) which is an unrealistic solution to the issue and they are creating hatred and animosity between Turks and Kurds, many Kurds I know personally condemn PKK's actions and have no ill feelings towards Turks. In my opinion political and cultural representation is a more fair solution than a geographic country for the Kurds. Cyprus consists of both Turkish and Greek Cypriots so when Greece attempted to unite the island under Greek "supervision" and started killing and oppressing the Turkish Cypriots, Turkey defended its people and invaded and took over half the island and continues to protect them, there is nothing wrong with that. Get your facts straight, don't be ignorant and biased then come argue in a civilized and respectful manner.
 
That's quite an imbecile opinion.




Contiguous does not mean part of - it means contiguous, i.e., neighbour. Now, if it is neighbour, it is not ours. It's neighbour. It's the other placed nearby us. By your «reasoning», Turkey would be a part of the EU because «it's contiguous» to Europe. Now, Lebanon is contiguous to Turkey, and Israel is contiguous to Lebanon, and Egypt is contiguous to Israel, and Sudan is contiguous to Egypt, and so on... within one year, South Africa would be a part of the EU because «it's contiguous».

So, the above objection is futile.
The word contiguous derives from the Latin for "touching". Hence, Turkey is a part of Europe, touching the rest of Europe, sharing a border with Greece, Bulgaria, Armenia and Georgia. That you don't want to recognise it does not make it incorrect.

Malta and Cyprus, and UK and Ireland, and Iceland, belong to another area, entirely European - they are islands, but not pieces of another continent.
So, the above objection is futile and dishonest.
What "other area, entirely European"? You're now making things up.

Yes, I can - Ethnically European is Indo-European, or pre-indo-european, like the Basque. Turkey is foreign to that.
So, the above objection is futile and dishonest.
I see, Indo-European. You mean Aryan. Or Basque. Or basically whatever you want to define as "European". But definitely NOT Turkish, presumably not Jewish (who are definitely not Indo-european), not Hungarian or Finnish (linguistically definitely not Indo-european). Do you see the idiocy of your definition? Indo-european is a linguistic definition, nothing more. Europe is full of people who do not share Indo-european/Aryan linguistic roots. Your definition is both worthless and, I fear, verging on the racist.

Oh, really. So, Attaturk created an entire new nation, perhaps with aliens from Mars... the entire Turkish past was erased, I see. Funny that still today the oh so modern Turkish State considers as a major offense that someone, in any part of the world, recognizes the genocide against the Armenians, which ocurred before 1923. Now, which could be the reason for that, since Turkey did not exist before 1923? :innocent:

Many historians and governments question the validity of the definition of the Armenian disasters as "genocide". Indeed only a handful insist on using the term. No one denies that widespread killings took place. If you think that they do, please provide evidence. However, what this has to do with Turkish accession to the EU is beyond me. Many, many EU countries have witnessed appalling atrocities in the past 100 years, many have passed into history without acknowledgement, apology or reparation (the British in Ireland, the role of Austria in WWII, civil wars in Greece, Spain etc etc. You are singling out Turkey for special condemnation because you don't like Turkey, not because it has committed any unique misdemeanour.

First of all, any secular Muslim country is easily turned into a radical Islamic country. Secondly, today's Turkey is getting more and more Islamist by the day. Erdogan is not really secular. Turkey is not acting in a secular way and is against Freedom of Speech in Europe, the very essence of the European spirit.
This is just pure Islamophobia. Turkey is not perfect, it does have issues of free speech (so do most EU nations, BTW - jail for a young Catalan who burned the Spanish flag? British libel laws available only to the rich?) and membership of the EU would help in improving the situation.

They are being oppressed in their own territory. Now, what do YOU know that can deny that?
How? Where? Their own territory? Could you tell me where exactly the historical nation of Kurdistan is geographically? Of course, there has never been an independent Kurdish state, ever, in history. That doesn't mean that Kurds have no right to self-determination but if you want to do this youy need to gather together Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran to negotiate with the Kurds.

As it is, the Kurds in Turkey are almost totally assimilated into the Turkish state. There are Kurds in government, the media, the judiciary, the military. There is a Kurdish separatist movement (as there is a Basque separatist movement) but what has that got to do with EU membership?

Not to mention the situation in Cyprus, of course...
Cyprus is not an issue. If it were an issue for the EU as a whole, the Greek Cypriot state would never have been allowed to join the EU. That they did join the EU without there having been a settlement to the unification issue means that unification has no bearing on the EU. You can't have one rule for the Greeks and another for the Turks, can you? Well, perhaps in your little club you could.


The fact-based assessment that nearly one million Armenians were chased and murdered by Turks. And many had to run away, like the Greeks. Again, what do YOU know that denies that?
I also know that an awful lot of people were murdered by British, German, French, Italian, Greek, Polish, Romanian, Austrian, Spanish, Portuguese people in the course of the last 100 years. The point of the EU is to prevent that happening again. Are you saying that the Turks are the only ones guilty?
 
Whether you or anyone else likes it or not, Turkey has been geographically, somewhat culturally, ethnically, and politically part of Europe for many centuries. The Ottoman Empire was built on the ruins of the Byzantine Empire and is considered by many historians and analysts as the Muslim successor to both the Roman and Byzantine Empires look it up. Modern Turkey has been part of Europe since the Seljuks came to Anatolia and defeated Byzantines in the Battle of Manzikert in 1071 and settled in parts of today's Turkey, then Ottomans came destroyed and ended Byzantines and claimed their territories and expanded further. Even today despite being a very small percentage (3%), Turkey is still geographically part of Europe, ethnically if you go to Central and especially Western even some Eastern parts of Turkey you will see many "European" and "Western" looking Turks with features like blue/green eyes, blond/light brown hair, white, etc. These people are a result of mixing of Turkish culture with Balkan and other European peoples mainly Greeks and other neighbouring areas. Original or pure Turks such as myself have slightly yellowish white skin, Mongoloid, Central Asian looking eyes, facial characteristics and have brown eyes and black hair. I'm not saying Turkey is Indo-European or whatever but over centuries have mixed and become part of Europe ethnically. Ataturk was an admirer of Westernism, modernism, European and Renaissance cultures and is known to have been a fan of French philosophers like Montesquieu, Voltaire and others. Despite fiercely fighting and standing up to European powers of Britain, France, Italy, Greece in and after WWI, he worked tirelessly to build a western and modern nation that resembled Europe as he saw the backwardness and isolation that old traditional Islamic values had done to the Turks. Turkey is perhaps the only Muslim majority country (99% of the nation) with a secular democracy as its system, Islamic sympathizing powers come and go in Turkey. Erdogan despite what people think is actually a perfect balance for Turkey as he is not pressing too much on Islamic policies and still trying to get Turkey in EU and improve relations with Europe.

Agreed



It is considered a major offense in Turkey to acknowledge the so-called Armenian Genocide because people are often biased and ignorant about what really happened in the time period. There were instances of Armenians killing Turks so it was not unprovoked, also only a small portion (mainly the perpetrators and criminals caught) were killed, the rest were deported out of the country to ensure safety of Turkish citizens.
Now this is really backward. The organized and systematic genocides of minorities, are excused in your eyes or even justified. I'm sure you've learnt this history only through Turkish Public Education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

"No. In fact, I want no Christianity at all. But Muslim is even worst." what an ignorant comment, why because Christianity is such a great tolerant religion right lol, just look at Spanish Inquisition, British, Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese, French treatment of occupied territories, such a great record isnt it?

Don't say that middle ages Christianity is today Christianity, it's like two different things. Now, Islam is still stuck in middle ages with it's teachings, and behaves exactly like Christianity from middle ages.
When Islam hits Renaissance era, times will be much easier for the world.




Don't by hypocritical, atheists like u are even worse, people who don't believe in God or anything are more dangerous and open to inhumane treatment and prejudice than Muslims or Christians.
Lol, now we can truly understand where you're coming from. Now we have your world structure: 1st are Muslims, then second grade of people, Christians, and third the dogs atheists.
How come the most atheist countries like Scandinavians are the most prosperous and peaceful? Why Allah rewarded unbelievers with prosperity? He has weird sense of humor, obviously.
This is the huge problem with Islam. All new generations are brain washed in Mosques and religious schools believing in their special and higher status, demeaning other religions, beliefs and cultures, preaching that Islam will be the only world religion one day, and ridiculing scientific understanding of the world and people. Where are you going???!!!


Also the Kurds and PKK (the terrorist organization fighting Turkey) are two different things, get ur facts straight, Turkey is not killing innocent Kurds but fighting against a dangerous radical extremist organization that is seeking territories from Turkey, Iran, Iraq and Syria (where Kurds exist) which is an unrealistic solution to the issue and they are creating hatred and animosity between Turks and Kurds, many Kurds I know personally condemn PKK's actions and have no ill feelings towards Turks. In my opinion political and cultural representation is a more fair solution than a geographic country for the Kurds.

Hopefully when you'll be a politician in Turkey's government one day, you'll start this process of building Kurds country. I was mad at Bush for not giving the Kurds of Iraq and independent country, that would have been a great beginning. It's inevitable and one day it will happen, sooner the better, and fewer people killed in the process.

Please, get off your nationalistic horse. It's important in order to understand the world, and most importantly your own country.
 
The word contiguous derives from the Latin for "touching". Hence, Turkey is a part of Europe,

No, it is not. Asia is also «touching» Europe, and that does not make it entirely European. Egypt is «touching» Asia, but it is African, not a country from Asia. And Turkey was always named Asia Minor, not Europe. Thus, the fact that you prefer to call it «Europe» does not make it European.

touching the rest of Europe, sharing a border with Greece, Bulgaria, Armenia and Georgia

Iraq also «touches» Armenia, and Azerbaijan does it also, but that does not make neither Iraq nor Azerbaijan European nations. That you want to «extend» Europe and change geography is another subject alltogether.


«What "other area, entirely European"?»

The Atlantic coast at northern Europe. That you don't know «your» geography is already a given.


I see, Indo-European. You mean Aryan. Or Basque.

I meant Indo-European. And Basque. Yes. And?...


Or basically whatever you want to define as "European".

No. Just whatever is European. Not just whatever you want to put inside Europe, just because it «touches» it.


But definitely NOT Turkish, presumably not Jewish (who are definitely not Indo-european),

Correct.


not Hungarian or Finnish (linguistically definitely not Indo-european).

Yes, that is a problem. However, those are minorities that were absorbed by Indo-European people and are now culturally European. It would be better if that never happened, but it did and that's all. That is not an argument to allow such proccess of absortion to continue, quite the contrary. Besides, Europe could absorb those small nations, culturally speaking, but it cannot do the same with seventy million of Turks (nor should it - as your leader said, «absortion is a crime against humanity»).


Do you see the idiocy of your definition?

What is here to see is the idiocy of your failed and rather feeble objections.


ndo-european is a linguistic definition, nothing more

Wrong. Indo-European is not just linguistic, it haves an ancient cultural and ethnic root.


Europe is full of people who do not share Indo-european/Aryan linguistic roots.

Not really. The vast majority of Europe is Indo-European. The few exceptions do not change the rule.


Your definition is both worthless

No, it's quite good.


and, I fear, verging on the racist.

Your fear is a problem of yours. This definition is ethnicist.


Many historians and governments question the validity of the definition of the Armenian disasters as "genocide".

And many historians and governments accept the validity of the Armenian genocide. Meanwhile, many historians also question the validity of the Jewish holocaust. And?...


Indeed only a handful insist on using the term

No, not just «a handful». Many organizations. There is general agreement among genocide scholars that the events constituted genocide. Several international organizations, conducting studies of the events, have determined that the term "genocide" aptly describes "the Ottoman massacre of Armenians in 1915–1918."(Wikipedia).


If you think that they do, please provide evidence.

No. If YOU think they don't, YOU are the one who have to provide evidence to this people:
In 1997 the International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS) passed a resolution unanimously recognizing the Ottoman massacres of Armenians as genocide. (Wikipedia).


However, what this has to do with Turkish accession to the EU is beyond me.

It haves a lot - if Germany had to admit the holocaust, Turkey haves to admit the Armenian genocide AS A CONDITION to enter EU. Didn't you even knew that?


This is just pure Islamophobia. Turkey is not perfect, it does have issues of free speech (so do most EU nations, BTW - jail for a young Catalan who burned the Spanish flag? British libel laws available only to the rich?) and membership of the EU would help in improving the situation.

Or in worsening the situation in Europe.


How? Where? Their own territory? Could you tell me where exactly the historical nation of Kurdistan is geographically?

In part of Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Syria... would you deny that? Or say that the Kurds invaded Turkey?


Of course, there has never been an independent Kurdish state,

And so?...


That doesn't mean that Kurds have no right to self-determination

Oh, good...


but if you want to do this youy need to gather together Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran to negotiate with the Kurds.

Correct.


There is a Kurdish separatist movement (as there is a Basque separatist movement) but what has that got to do with EU membership?

Respect for human rights of the Kurds is an issue for the membership of Turkey. Why are you pretending not to know that?


Cyprus is not an issue.

Yes it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus#Human_rights


If it were an issue for the EU as a whole, the Greek Cypriot state would never have been allowed to join the EU.

Wrong again. The Greeks did not invade Cyprus. Turkey did.
 
Whether you or anyone else likes it or not, Turkey has been geographically, somewhat culturally, ethnically, and politically part of Europe for many centuries

No. Whether you, and your people, like it or not, Turkey was neither geographically, nor culturally, ethnically and politically a part of Europe - and it will never be.


The Ottoman Empire was built on the ruins of the Byzantine Empire

Yes - the Ottoman Empire was made by those who ruined the Byzantine Empire.


and is considered by many historians and analysts as the Muslim successor to both the Roman and Byzantine Empires

Many historians say many things. That the Muslims were always enemies of the West, is a given.


Even today despite being a very small percentage (3%), Turkey is still geographically part of Europe,

But the vast majority of Turkey is not. Namely it's capital. The Turks were always invaders and the really European nations of that area of Europe - Greece, Serbia, Armenia, Bulgaria - know that.


ethnically if you go to Central and especially Western even some Eastern parts of Turkey you will see many "European" and "Western" looking

That's racially. Not ethnically. Turkic language and roots are not European.


Ataturk was an admirer of Westernism, modernism, European and Renaissance cultures and is known to have been a fan of French philosophers like Montesquieu, Voltaire

Yes, but Ataturk was a secular man, and Turkey is highly religious. Ataturk was also probably of Albanian descendence. Not a real Turk.


Erdogan despite what people think is actually a perfect balance for Turkey as he is not pressing too much on Islamic policies

That depends on the perspective... but his speeches, and his attempts against European free speech, place him definitely on the Muslim side. For some reason, there were people plotting a military revolution in Turkey, recently... that shows how bad things are now when it comes to re-Islamification.


It is considered a major offense in Turkey to acknowledge the so-called Armenian Genocide because people are often biased and ignorant about what really happened in the time period.

So, different opinions about what happened are «offensive». I see your concept of «Democracy»...

Meanwhile, I repeat - if Turkey did not exist before 1923, what's the problem with the Armenian genocide?... :innocent::innocent::innocent:


There were instances of Armenians killing Turks so it was not unprovoked,

Oh, I see... now, there were justifications for the genoci... aham, massac... oops, well, a few killings...:grin:


also only a small portion (mainly the perpetrators and criminals caught) were killed,

Yes - a million. A small portion...


Where did you get your facts that Erdogan is against Freedom of Speech, do you have any real proof?

Several.

In fact, I want no Christianity at all. But Muslim is even worst." what an ignorant comment, why because Christianity is such a great tolerant religion right lol, just look at Spanish Inquisition, British, Dutch, Spanish,

I say that I don't want Christianity, and you presume that I am defending Christianity and consider it tolerant?...

Yes, Christianity, as the older brother of Islam, is also intolerant - but, today, it is fading away, at least in Europe. It's not a menace anymore, at least for now. But Islam is different - even more intolerant and growing.


Don't by hypocritical, atheists like u are even worse,

I am not an atheist. And you are being hypocritical, «forgetting» about the Islamic intolerance by diverting the discussion towards Christianity.


In my opinion political and cultural representation is a more fair solution than a geographic country for the Kurds. Cyprus consists of both Turkish and Greek Cypriots so when Greece attempted to unite the island under Greek "supervision" and started killing and oppressing the Turkish Cypriots,

Wrong. The United Nations Security Council has challenged the legality of Turkey's action, because Article Four of the Treaty of Guarantee gives the right to guarantors to take action with the sole aim of re-establishing the state of affairs.[15] The aftermath of Turkey's invasion, however, did not safeguard the Republic's sovereignty and territorial integrity, but had the opposite effect; such as the de facto partitioning of the Republic in two, the creation of a separate political entity in the north and the forceful expulsion of Greek Cypriots from it. (Wikipedia).


Get your facts straight, don't be ignorant and biased then come argue in a civilized and respectful manner.

Actually, YOU are the one needing to take lessons about arguing in a civilized and respectful manner, since the insult is stupidly coming from you. So, do behave, boy, this is not Turkey, this is Europe and here there is Freedom of Speech.
 
Malta and Cyprus, and UK and Ireland, and Iceland, belong to another area, entirely European - they are islands, but not pieces of another continent.
Take a good long look at a map and you will see that Cyprus is off the coast of the Asian continent, and should be more recognised as an asian island that a european one. It is only recognised as European because of its history.
In the past the coast of Turkey was colonised by Greeks, and conquered by the Romans. It has a history with Europe.

First of all, any secular Muslim country is easily turned into a radical Islamic country. Secondly, today's Turkey is getting more and more Islamist by the day. Erdogan is not really secular. Turkey is not acting in a secular way and is against Freedom of Speech in Europe, the very essence of the European spirit.
Which radical evenagelicals are trying to do in the US. I know atheists that live in some parts of the southern US that dare not reveal that they are atheist because of death threats and violence.

No. In fact, I want no Christianity at all.
I prefer no religion full stop.

TurkYusuf1 said:
Original or pure Turks such as myself have slightly yellowish white skin, Mongoloid, Central Asian looking eyes, facial characteristics and have brown eyes and black hair.
That is because the Sejik were descendened from the warriors of the Mongol Empire that settled in the region. The were eventually converted to Islam.

I do not really understand the problem with this argument of Turkey is part of Europe because it is contiguous with Europe. Well part of it is within the area defined as Europe, fact. There is also the case of Russia. Most people will refer to them as European, but most of Russia is in Asia. So are Russians European or Asian? The taken from a land mass view Europe is only a continuation of Asia to the atlantic. Then if you want to argue along cultural lines then why not have Canada, Australia or the US become part of the EU? They have a strong Europen culture and history linked to Europe.
As for Islam being a problem, what about Bosnia or Albania, both countries with a high Muslim population? Want to exclude them because the might radicalise?
 
No. Whether you, and your people, like it or not, Turkey was neither geographically, nor culturally, ethnically and politically a part of Europe - and it will never be....

I think we have established that you have your own idea about what constitutes "European". It's mostly a racialist (you call it "ethnicist" although that is not a word in the English language) argument but with some nods towards some faulty geography. Okay. Got it.

You are to be commended for your clarity if not your logic or tolerance.
 
Turkey should not become an EU member state.

It has nothing to offer that we either want or need and a great deal that it would bring that we absolutely neither want or need.

A line must be drawn, that line is already being thinned by what is in effect uncontrolled immigration by people and with them an ideology that runs counter to that of Europe, and that line must be re-established with Turkey on the other side certainly from the EU states prior to the last expansion, a thing which itself should be re-visited.

Maybe it’s even time to introduce a process for expulsion of EU states from the Union, goodness knows there are some that are not coming up to requirements made of them.

In my opinion the major drive for Turkish accession, apart from the Turks who see a place they can exploit, is down to the influence by the US, a country that time and again has showed it is no friend of the EU and no friend of any country that was not of use to it in some way.

So never mind about geography, never mind about the ottoman Empire, never mind about ‘multi-culturalism (that’s a disease that will have to resolved separately) instead of trying to justify why we should say no, instead we should just say no and make damm sure our MEP’s are aware of the grass roots feelings, especially from the major contributing states of Europe.

No to Turkey.

Turkey, be a neighbour by all means, and engage with us as a neighbour.

But let us all never forger that strong and well maintained fences make for the best neighbours.
 
No. Whether you, and your people, like it or not, Turkey was neither geographically, nor culturally, ethnically and politically a part of Europe - and it will never be.

1) ok, so Greece isn't European either... To the eyes of a northern European, the influences of Turkey are obvious in Greece.. Unless we are willing to dismiss most of our dishes, many of our words and some of our music, right? And send back our grandparents from Asia minor, who, in Greece were treated like Turks anyway when they first came (I know it for sure, my grandparents came from Asia Miror), right???



Yes - the Ottoman Empire was made by those who ruined the Byzantine Empire.

2) The Byzantine empire, was already falling apart because of the extreme corruption! It was inevitable. If it wasn't the Ottoman, It would be someone else..



Many historians say many things. That the Muslims were always enemies of the West, is a given.

2) Bullshit! Each nation of the "West" was enemy with other nations in the "West".And still are... And What the F**k is the "West" anyway???



But the vast majority of Turkey is not. Namely it's capital. The Turks were always invaders and the really European nations of that area of Europe - Greece, Serbia, Armenia, Bulgaria - know that.




That's racially. Not ethnically. Turkic language and roots are not European.

3) Shall I repeat what I said in no 1)?????


Yes, but Ataturk was a secular man, and Turkey is highly religious. Ataturk was also probably of Albanian descendence. Not a real Turk.
4) Yeah, I know your way of thinking: What's turkish is not good, and if it's good, it's not turkish

That depends on the perspective... but his speeches, and his attempts against European free speech, place him definitely on the Muslim side. For some reason, there were people plotting a military revolution in Turkey, recently... that shows how bad things are now when it comes to re-Islamification.




So, different opinions about what happened are «offensive». I see your concept of «Democracy»...
5) Did you see ours (the greeks)??

Meanwhile, I repeat - if Turkey did not exist before 1923, what's the problem with the Armenian genocide?... :innocent::innocent::innocent:




Oh, I see... now, there were justifications for the genoci... aham, massac... oops, well, a few killings...:grin:




Yes - a million. A small portion...




Several.



I say that I don't want Christianity, and you presume that I am defending Christianity and consider it tolerant?...

Yes, Christianity, as the older brother of Islam, is also intolerant - but, today, it is fading away, at least in Europe. It's not a menace anymore, at least for now. But Islam is different - even more intolerant and growing.




I am not an atheist. And you are being hypocritical, «forgetting» about the Islamic intolerance by diverting the discussion towards Christianity.




Wrong. The has challenged the legality of Turkey's action, because Article Four of the Treaty of Guarantee gives the right to guarantors to take action with the sole aim of re-establishing the state of affairs.The aftermath of Turkey's invasion, however, did not safeguard the Republic's sovereignty and territorial integrity, but had the opposite effect; such as the de facto the creation of a separate political entity in the north and the forceful expulsion of Greek Cypriots from it. (Wikipedia).




Actually, YOU are the one needing to take lessons about arguing in a civilized and respectful manner, since the insult is stupidly coming from you. So, do behave, boy, this is not Turkey, this is Europe and here there is Freedom of Speech.

To the rest, I don't disagree. Just one thing....(because I suspect you are greek). Before you blame other people for something, look into the mirror first...
 
Turkey should not become an EU member state.

It has nothing to offer that we either want or need and a great deal that it would bring that we absolutely neither want or need.

A line must be drawn, that line is already being thinned by what is in effect uncontrolled immigration by people and with them an ideology that runs counter to that of Europe, and that line must be re-established with Turkey on the other side certainly from the EU states prior to the last expansion, a thing which itself should be re-visited.

Maybe it’s even time to introduce a process for expulsion of EU states from the Union, goodness knows there are some that are not coming up to requirements made of them.

In my opinion the major drive for Turkish accession, apart from the Turks who see a place they can exploit, is down to the influence by the US, a country that time and again has showed it is no friend of the EU and no friend of any country that was not of use to it in some way.

So never mind about geography, never mind about the ottoman Empire, never mind about ‘multi-culturalism (that’s a disease that will have to resolved separately) instead of trying to justify why we should say no, instead we should just say no and make damm sure our MEP’s are aware of the grass roots feelings, especially from the major contributing states of Europe.

No to Turkey.

Turkey, be a neighbour by all means, and engage with us as a neighbour.

But let us all never forger that strong and well maintained fences make for the best neighbours.

A few points. How would you know what "grass roots" feeling is on this matter? I reckon if you put it to a vote, Turkey would be warmly welcomed into the EU. I think it's just politicians like Sarkozy and Merkel who like to play the Islamic boogieman card for their own domestic political purposes who are sticking a spanner in the works.

Please list the things that the other members of the EU "have that we want"? I think you're missing the whole point of the EU if you just think it's about sharing out common goods.

Now, about this uncontrolled immigration business. Since EU accession, the number of Romanian and Bulgarian immigrants to Western Europe has dropped dramatically. Accession has brought greater prosperity and jobs to Romania and Bulgaria, as it would to Turkey, and people are more likely to return home than flood your poor Welsh valleys. That's what has always happened in the past and the "we'll all be swamped with immigrants" argument has never been proved to have any basis in fact. Prove it if you can.
 
A few points. How would you know what "grass roots" feeling is on this matter? I reckon if you put it to a vote, Turkey would be warmly welcomed into the EU.


Then, based on the people that I deal with in Germany, France, The Netherlands, Denmark, Italy, Spain (especially) who are not recent immigrants you ‘reckon’ wrongly.

I think it's just politicians like Sarkozy and Merkel who like to play the Islamic boogieman card for their own domestic political purposes who are sticking a spanner in the works.


Sarkozy and Merkel are, as you say, politicians. One of the essentials of remaining in office for a politician is to at least try to reflect popular opinion. In both cases it goes further.

In the case of France their experience of immigrants from North Africa and The East is far from good. A thing that can be seen on a daily basis.

In Germany there is considerable experience of ‘gastarbeiters’ from Turkey, and here again it has not been a positive experience for the German population, most of whom detest them with a vengeance.

Please list the things that the other members of the EU "have that we want"? I think you're missing the whole point of the EU if you just think it's about sharing out common goods.


We have wealth, money, opportunities, freedom, and a future. We also have the Euro.

We have worked for them. I believe the inclusion of the Balkan states was fundamentally wrong, I believe that the Eurozone was about two years premature in being established, and I believe that PIGS were allowed to loin too soon.

Now, about this uncontrolled immigration business. Since EU accession, the number of Romanian and Bulgarian immigrants to Western Europe has dropped dramatically.

Accession has brought greater prosperity and jobs to Romania and Bulgaria, as it would to Turkey, and people are more likely to return home than flood your poor Welsh valleys.


Who gives a stuff about Romania or Bulgaria? I certainly don’t, and nor do a great many people who see what has taken place as the exchange of money for increased poverty and fiscal liability by the mistaken inclusion of those Balkan states into an area in which they have no justifiable place. They have nothing we want or need.

hat's what has always happened in the past and the "we'll all be swamped with immigrants" argument has never been proved to have any basis in fact. Prove it if you can.


All I have to do is look at the metrics. Free movement of labour within a group of countries that are within spitting distance of each other culturally, economically, and historically is understandable, manageable, and even in most, not all but most, cases desirable.

Bring a cuckoo into the nest and pretty soon you have a bird that is fattening itself at a cost of the other family members.

And that is before we even start to factor in Islam, an ideology that is absolutely opposed to Democracy as WE understand it, let alone freedom and the modern civilised world, and that is presently making such ‘progress’ (and I sue that word loosely) in what can no longer justifiably called a secular state in the case of Turkey. (if indeed ever was really the case)

Then there is the little matter of Turkey dealing with truth on a national level. National honesty you might say.

Let’s start with the Armenian genocide. A thing that gets you in deep trouble to even hint at in Turkey, and yet a thing of historical fact. Treatment of the press, laws against ‘bringing the state into disrepute’ and other such archaic garbage that is a part of Turkish law, culture, and character.
Oh yes. Included in the past record and still a highly offensive thing to continue to perpetrate, lets’ not forget then illegal occupation of part of Cyprus eh? Or the treatment of the Kurds. Or human rights, or more likely human degradation but behind closed doors.

Turkey?

Be a neighbour behind strong fences, but keep to your OWN side.

And clean up your act come what may.
 
Then, based on the people that I deal with in Germany, France, The Netherlands, Denmark, Italy, Spain (especially) who are not recent immigrants you ‘reckon’ wrongly.



Sarkozy and Merkel are, as you say, politicians. One of the essentials of remaining in office for a politician is to at least try to reflect popular opinion. In both cases it goes further.

In the case of France their experience of immigrants from North Africa and The East is far from good. A thing that can be seen on a daily basis.

In Germany there is considerable experience of ‘gastarbeiters’ from Turkey, and here again it has not been a positive experience for the German population, most of whom detest them with a vengeance.



We have wealth, money, opportunities, freedom, and a future. We also have the Euro.

We have worked for them. I believe the inclusion of the Balkan states was fundamentally wrong, I believe that the Eurozone was about two years premature in being established, and I believe that PIGS were allowed to loin too soon.



Who gives a stuff about Romania or Bulgaria? I certainly don’t, and nor do a great many people who see what has taken place as the exchange of money for increased poverty and fiscal liability by the mistaken inclusion of those Balkan states into an area in which they have no justifiable place. They have nothing we want or need.



All I have to do is look at the metrics. Free movement of labour within a group of countries that are within spitting distance of each other culturally, economically, and historically is understandable, manageable, and even in most, not all but most, cases desirable.

Bring a cuckoo into the nest and pretty soon you have a bird that is fattening itself at a cost of the other family members.

And that is before we even start to factor in Islam, an ideology that is absolutely opposed to Democracy as WE understand it, let alone freedom and the modern civilised world, and that is presently making such ‘progress’ (and I sue that word loosely) in what can no longer justifiably called a secular state in the case of Turkey. (if indeed ever was really the case)

Then there is the little matter of Turkey dealing with truth on a national level. National honesty you might say.

Let’s start with the Armenian genocide. A thing that gets you in deep trouble to even hint at in Turkey, and yet a thing of historical fact. Treatment of the press, laws against ‘bringing the state into disrepute’ and other such archaic garbage that is a part of Turkish law, culture, and character.
Oh yes. Included in the past record and still a highly offensive thing to continue to perpetrate, lets’ not forget then illegal occupation of part of Cyprus eh? Or the treatment of the Kurds. Or human rights, or more likely human degradation but behind closed doors.

Turkey?

Be a neighbour behind strong fences, but keep to your OWN side.

And clean up your act come what may.

Lord! You make so many sweeping statements that you can't and don't back up with any facts. I'm not interested in the opinions of "the people I deal with" . They are no more representative of public opinion than are those people I deal with. I said I reckon they'd agree with Turkish accession, of course I could be wrong. The difference between your position and mine is that I'm guessing whereas you're stating that you know "grass roots" opinion. You don't.

I notice that you didn't answer my question. I'll repeat it. Please list the things that the other members of the EU "have that we want"? Not what things we have that your phantom migrants might want. The logic of your position is that we can only accept new EU members who have stuff we want or need. Please tell me what those things might be.

When you say, "We have the Euro", who is the "We"? You appear to be from Wales. When did you get the Euro?

"Look at the metrics". The what? What are metrics? I'm pretty sure that is something to do with poetry.

I do note that you don't try to refute my assertion that EU accession leads to a reduction of migration from accession states into the rest of the EU.
 
Lord! You make so many sweeping statements that you can't and don't back up with any facts. I'm not interested in the opinions of "the people I deal with" . They are no more representative of public opinion than are those people I deal with. I said I reckon they'd agree with Turkish accession, of course I could be wrong. The difference between your position and mine is that I'm guessing whereas you're stating that you know "grass roots" opinion. You don't.

I do know that the people that I deal with are of the same opinion as myself and that they’re a pretty fair cross section of the populations as a whole in the countries that I travel to.

I notice that you didn't answer my question. I'll repeat it. Please list the things that the other members of the EU "have that we want"? Not what things we have that your phantom migrants might want. The logic of your position is that we can only accept new EU members who have stuff we want or need. Please tell me what those things might be.

I have listed the things. In essence we represent a resource that Turkey can and more would exploit if ever allowed to become an EU member.

When you say, "We have the Euro", who is the "We"? You appear to be from Wales. When did you get the Euro?

We as in the EU. The EU has the Euro as a common currency in many member states. The number will grow.

"Look at the metrics". The what? What are metrics? I'm pretty sure that is something to do with poetry.

Then you really should learn more about statistics.

I do note that you don't try to refute my assertion that EU accession leads to a reduction of migration from accession states into the rest of the EU.

What it results in is the free movement of people masking the flow of people.
In Britain the place is crawling with East Europeans, once they would have shown up on the immigration stats, now they don’t.

There is a bottom line. Most people when asked do not want anything to do with Turkey, especially not as a member of the EU.
 
Thank you for your fair, well-written and strong arguments.
 
Agreed




Now this is really backward. The organized and systematic genocides of minorities, are excused in your eyes or even justified. I'm sure you've learnt this history only through Turkish Public Education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

I'm not excusing anything but there were atrocities on both sides, I have seen and read sources that indicate there were in fact Armenian gangs killed and raped many Turks and burned their villages and possessions. Actually I lived in Turkey but went to a private school with western education and learned this stuff there, it was based on the British school system.



Don't say that middle ages Christianity is today Christianity, it's like two different things. Now, Islam is still stuck in middle ages with it's teachings, and behaves exactly like Christianity from middle ages.
When Islam hits Renaissance era, times will be much easier for the world.

Ok sorry if I came off as ignorant myself, but middle age Christianity was just as bad or even worse than what people perceive Islam caused in Europe and the world. Yes modern countries that have Islam as the predominant religion like Turkey will help improve its image in the world;.



Lol, now we can truly understand where you're coming from. Now we have your world structure: 1st are Muslims, then second grade of people, Christians, and third the dogs atheists.
How come the most atheist countries like Scandinavians are the most prosperous and peaceful? Why Allah rewarded unbelievers with prosperity? He has weird sense of humor, obviously.
This is the huge problem with Islam. All new generations are brain washed in Mosques and religious schools believing in their special and higher status, demeaning other religions, beliefs and cultures, preaching that Islam will be the only world religion one day, and ridiculing scientific understanding of the world and people. Where are you going???!!!

Ok again I'm sorry for my seemingly ignorant and disrespectful comments. No according to the Holy Quran (holy book of Muslims/Islam) it is indicated strongly that Muslims, Christians and Jews are equal as they all believe in God despite what misperceptions and wrong information people have about Islam and the Quran. I just don't agree with atheism, but yes religion has nothing to do with progress in several areas but I do believe that belief in God will inspire people to be more successful and prosper. What you say is the extremist view of Islam, as people like myself are not taught in Mosques and religious school that they are higher than other religions, we respect Jews, Christians and other religions. Every religion including Christianity and Judaism see themselves as higher than Muslims or whatever this is not just how some Muslims views the issue.


Hopefully when you'll be a politician in Turkey's government one day, you'll start this process of building Kurds country. I was mad at Bush for not giving the Kurds of Iraq and independent country, that would have been a great beginning. It's inevitable and one day it will happen, sooner the better, and fewer people killed in the process.

Please, get off your nationalistic horse. It's important in order to understand the world, and most importantly your own country.

Hopefully one day you will be realistic and realize a Kurdish geographical country will never exist because parts of Turkey, Iran, Iraq and Syria will never be allowed to secede. Perhaps more political and cultural representation in the Turkish government will help solve the situation. Also I study political science and history and plan to study law so I feel like I'm entitled to comment on the issue or its political or other solutions also I know much about Turkish politics I read many sources and news everyday. I'm very glad that Bush went away and Obama came, Bush is a nut job who drove his country to a long, tiring, exhausting bloody wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Maybe Afghanistan had some reason but he just made up the WMD issue to attack and take Saddam off power. Obama realized the importance of Turkish contribution and progress so he fixed relations with Turkey hope it continues. Please learn more about the issue from reliable sources and do not act like you know more about my own country than I do.
 
No. Whether you, and your people, like it or not, Turkey was neither geographically, nor culturally, ethnically and politically a part of Europe - and it will never be.




Yes - the Ottoman Empire was made by those who ruined the Byzantine Empire.




Many historians say many things. That the Muslims were always enemies of the West, is a given.




But the vast majority of Turkey is not. Namely it's capital. The Turks were always invaders and the really European nations of that area of Europe - Greece, Serbia, Armenia, Bulgaria - know that.




That's racially. Not ethnically. Turkic language and roots are not European.



Yes, but Ataturk was a secular man, and Turkey is highly religious. Ataturk was also probably of Albanian descendence. Not a real Turk.





That depends on the perspective... but his speeches, and his attempts against European free speech, place him definitely on the Muslim side. For some reason, there were people plotting a military revolution in Turkey, recently... that shows how bad things are now when it comes to re-Islamification.




So, different opinions about what happened are «offensive». I see your concept of «Democracy»...

Meanwhile, I repeat - if Turkey did not exist before 1923, what's the problem with the Armenian genocide?... :innocent::innocent::innocent:




Oh, I see... now, there were justifications for the genoci... aham, massac... oops, well, a few killings...:grin:




Yes - a million. A small portion...




Several.



I say that I don't want Christianity, and you presume that I am defending Christianity and consider it tolerant?...

Yes, Christianity, as the older brother of Islam, is also intolerant - but, today, it is fading away, at least in Europe. It's not a menace anymore, at least for now. But Islam is different - even more intolerant and growing.




I am not an atheist. And you are being hypocritical, «forgetting» about the Islamic intolerance by diverting the discussion towards Christianity.




Wrong. The United Nations Security Council has challenged the legality of Turkey's action, because Article Four of the Treaty of Guarantee gives the right to guarantors to take action with the sole aim of re-establishing the state of affairs.[15] The aftermath of Turkey's invasion, however, did not safeguard the Republic's sovereignty and territorial integrity, but had the opposite effect; such as the de facto partitioning of the Republic in two, the creation of a separate political entity in the north and the forceful expulsion of Greek Cypriots from it. (Wikipedia).




Actually, YOU are the one needing to take lessons about arguing in a civilized and respectful manner, since the insult is stupidly coming from you. So, do behave, boy, this is not Turkey, this is Europe and here there is Freedom of Speech.




Believe what you want, it was and still is geographically, culturally, ethnically and politically part of Europe. This is fact, I know it, people who matter know and accept it that's it.Lol so what, Byzantine Empire would have collapsed anyway sooner or later, we just finished them off, Byzantines destroyed many civilizations when they made their conquests why are those conquests not seen as destruction to their societies and Turkey does?Hahahaha another ignorant comment, this is only said by some Islamophobia sympathizing countries and peoples that's all, fear that Islam will one day again dominate Europe, which is not Turkey's fault if Europe feels insecure.Lol and what the Byzantines and ancient Greeks were tolerant angels when they conquered and killed and invaded lands in Middle East and other parts of Europe that weren't under Hellenistic or European culture?So what? Actually modern Turkish not Turkic is based on the Latin alphabet and English and French words can be found in it as well. Old Turkic is completely different though.Ok lol you're going to teach me my own history now are you, hahaha, first of all Ataturk was a secular man yes, but both his parents were Muslims in fact his mother was a very religious woman, Turkey is not very religious at least it hasn't been in the last century after Ottoman collapse. Ataturk may have some Balkan European blood in him but he had Turkic blood in him too which was more dominant. Today many Turks have mixed blood in them. "Not a real Turk" lol ok is there true European?Nope it depends on if you follow the issues going on Turkey since he came to power. He has been a big advocate in entering Turkey in EU and excellent diplomatic relations with many European and Western leaders. Military rule is not democratic and they have falsified fears of re-emergence of Islamic government which is not true as Turkey is still secular.Turkey did not commit these crimes, it was committed by a group of three pashas/rulers (Enver, Talat, Jamal) search them up and their role in the Armenian issue if u want. These people had a puppet sultan (Mehmed V) and atrocities were committed on both sides, the attacks were not provoked and there were deportations as well, shows how unreliable and biased European and Western sources are lol.Again you don't know anything, come back when you have some unbiased and reliable sources to back up ur claim, most western and european sources will of course say it was genocide.Nope about a few hundred thousands, exxaggerated and unreliable numbers by unreliable and biased sources.Nope it is only the extremist Islam that you and other people look at, if people even make attempts at learning true Islam and it's purpose and content, you will realize you are only being racist and ignorant.Yes that was a mistake sorry, Islam is tolerant towards Christianity and Judaism as they are also considered "peoples of the book" and believe in god.Lol wikipedia where anyone can post stuff. What about what Greece tried to do, unite Cyprus as Greek Cyprus and their plans for the Turkish Cypriots living in the island? Why doesn't anyone talk about that? Turkey acted to protect its Turkish brothers. If it was illegal countries like UK and US would have acted and stopped us as they are one of the two top democratic liberal democracies in the world but they didn't so your argument is weak.Well I'm not going to stand by and say nothing while you completely disrespect and spread lies about my country. Lol really funny don't tell me what to do, this is an open forum I can say whatever I want unless warned by the administrator so mind your own business and watch you own language and so called "freedom of speech". Lol
 
So funny to see comments of people like Beefree and Gwyllgi. Shows how much Islamophobia and may I say Turkophobia they have which is probably due to the Ottoman and earlier Turkich legacy and influence left in Europe and the Western World. First of all everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect them to a level where they don't become offensive, ignorant, racist, hateful, ill-informed, biased/unreliable ones that are tried to passed off as facts. Turkey is the 17th largest economy in the world in terms of GDP nominal, 15th in GDP PPP (Purchasing Power Parity) and is part of G20 (top 20 richest countries in the world). It has seen much economic progress and continues to be one of the fastest growing economies in the world. It's military is very powerful (ranked between 8th-10th in the world according to many sources) and has immense influence in the Middle East and Central Asia (two key areas for the Western world, the former being rich in oil and resources and a key strategical location and the latter being rich in oil, gas and other resources as well). So economically and militarily Turkey would make excellent addition to EU in my educated and personal opinion. I currently study political science and history in university and do my own vast personal research to make these claims. Politically and diplomatically it has excellent relations with many countries and has some problems with a few countries. It is both part of European and Western society through many organizations like NATO, G20, etc. and a Muslim majority (99%) but secular democratic country as it maintains great relations with Middle Eastern countries such as Israel, Iran, Egypt, Syria, etc. as well as fixing relations with older enemies such as Russia. Please make fair, respectful, unbiased and most importantly educated comments with facts if possible about Turkey and it's issue of joining EU, I'm sorry if I contradicted myself and acted like a hypocrite if I did just that in my previous comments but I will be more respectful in future comments. Cheers and Greetings to everyone reading this.
 
Maybe someone could spell out just what Turkey would bring to us in the EU that we either want or need?

Maybe also "TurkYusuf1" should learn a bit more about what a GDP is, what it means, and how far from being an indicator of the health of an economy it is nothing more than an indicator of economic activity. An indicator that, as we in Britain know only too well, is meaningless when it is being fueled by ever mounting external debt.

Maybe also take account of NATO now being well past its use by date as the reasons that NATO came into being are now long defunct and the only purpose that NSATO presently serves is to allow the US to have a presence where they are increasingly not wanted or needed.

In fact had it not been for NATO Blair’s dragging Britain into the US hegemony in Iraq and Afghanistan would not have triggered the involvement of other countries through the NATO treaty

Turkey secure secular democracy? Purleese! The place is heading faster and faster towards becoming the precise opposite, a thing that resulted in the recent trouble in which a number of Army officers were arrested because they were working for the retention of Secular rule.

Excellent relations with other countries? Get real. Look at the way that Turkey figuratively jumped out of its pram when reminded about the Armenian genocide. Look at the dreadful human rights record, the laws against freedom of press and other news media. In short the whole place is so absolutely un – European that the possibility of it being included in OUR home lands should be dismissed out of hand.

And that is the point.

Europe is our HOME.

WE should decide who we do or do not invite in and just because someone comes whining about wanting to be let in should, indeed MUST not result in the door being opened top them, especially when most of the other people in the ‘house’ don’t want them, don’t need them and yes, don’t like them.
 

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