Sicilians: Which groups overlap? (Multiple choice version)

[AdeoF]

I only see N. Italians, Greeks, Sardinian, Maltese and Spanish in Sicilians.

 

[Nobody1]

For all you amateurs that just dont know any better.

The Caucasoid race is divided into its sub-races - [Nordic - Alpine - Mediterranean - Arminoid - Iranid]
The Sicilians are classified by all Anthropologists (Banse, Eickstedt, Deniker, Coon, Grant, Biasutti, Lundman etc.) as Mediterraneans (Caucasoid)

E. Banse: [westische = mediterranean / ostische = alpine]
imageshack.us/photo/my-images/54/rasseml6.jpg/

some plates of Sicilians and S. Italians from Carleton S. Coon - Races of Europe
FIG.1. A Sicilian from Messina. Aberrant in respect to an excessive mandible width, but otherwise typical.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/853/10858373.png/
FIG.2. An equally typical example of the same racial strain, from the region of Naples in Italy. The only aberrant feature of this individual is his blue eyes.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/849/23254114.png/

Sicilians are closest to S. Italians, Greeks, Berbers and other Mediterranid (Caucasoid) people

Madison Grant - The Passing of the Great Race (1922)
-"The Berbers of north Africa to-day are racially identical with the Spaniards and south Italians"-

 

[MOESAN]

We are talking about overall appearances. EVERY region of Europe has phenotypes that are atypical (i.e., not common for the specific geography).

I'm not speaking about individuals but about means made by different percentages of individuals (different history - otherwise, all these threads have no sense!

 

[adamo]

They overlap with middle easterners and or Greco-anatolians (Turks,Lebanese,Armenians) 28%, franco Germanic celts (french,swiss) 25% and North Africans (Egyptians,Tunisians) 20-25%

 

[oreo_cookie]

There is a divide in haplogroups from one side of the island to the other.. eastern Sicilians have more E1b1b and western Sicilians more R1b, but both sides of the island have a lot of J2.

 

[MOESAN]

the phenotypes concerning bones show some variations W-E /
I think the previous mixes of diverses population (with a lot of N-italy people, autochtonous + Ligurians or something close to them + Sicules) contained a lot of Y-R1b (U152 strong enough) were pushed westwards by Greeks colonists (cause of Y-E1b, I think) - for Y-J2 some subclades derserve deep analysis because they could be come there at different times from different cultures and places

 

[oreo_cookie]

the phenotypes concerning bones show some variations W-E /
I think the previous mixes of diverses population (with a lot of N-italy people, autochtonous + Ligurians or something close to them + Sicules) contained a lot of Y-R1b (U152 strong enough) were pushed westwards by Greeks colonists (cause of Y-E1b, I think) - for Y-J2 some subclades derserve deep analysis because they could be come there at different times from different cultures and places

When the Greeks settled in the east of the island they destroyed the original cultures there and pushed them westward across the island, but also kept them out of the west, which was Elymian/Phoenician territory. So their descendants today would be in central Sicily, in the least populated part of the island.

 

[adamo]

The Sicules where E3b+J2, the sicani where R1b u152, the western most regions of Sicily WHERE elymians/Phoenicians.

 

[Nobody1]

The Sicules where E3b+J2, the sicani where R1b u152, the western most regions of Sicily WHERE elymians/Phoenicians.

No,

Sicani (Iberians / West Sicily) were R1b (M269 total)
R1b-M269 in West Sicily = 30.3% Di Gaetano et al 2009

Siculi (Ligurians / East Sicily) were R1b (S28-U152 specific)
akin to Umbro-Ligures in Po Valley or Ligures in Rhone Valley
R1b-M269 in East Sicily = 18.4% Di Gaetano et al 2009 of which 12-16% R1b S28-U152 Busby et al 2011

R1b S28 (U152) - Busby et al 2011

R1b is lower in East Sicily because East Sicily was also heavily Greek (not just Ligurian Siculi);

pink=Phoenician / blue=Greek / Elymians / Sicani / Sicels (Siculi)

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Also interesting to note about Sicily is the Normannic contribution, especially in West Sicily
(Courts, Important fiefdoms etc.)

I1-M253 = 8.2% in West Sicily [122 samples] but only 1.7% in East Sicily [114 samples]; Di Gaetano et al 2009

Di Gaetano et al 2009
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/
Busby et al 2011
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full

 

[oreo_cookie]

R1b in western Sicily is more likely due to people from the Italian mainland moving there during Norman rule. Iberian influence in Sicily is very low on an autosomal level.

 

[Nobody1]

R1b in western Sicily is more likely due to people from the Italian mainland moving there during Norman rule. Iberian influence in Sicily is very low on an autosomal level.

The Sicani were ancient [Pre-Indo-European] Iberians, not modern-day Iberians.

 

[oreo_cookie]

The Sicani were ancient [Pre-Indo-European] Iberians, not modern-day Iberians.

In that case they may have had more in common with North Africans and/or Basques. But still there is very little Basque-like DNA in Sicilians, so I'd bet the Sicanians had little to no impact today.

 

[Nobody1]

In that case they may have had more in common with North Africans and/or Basques. But still there is very little Basque-like DNA in Sicilians, so I'd bet the Sicanians had little to no impact today.

Well, who do you think the Basques the Berbers and the Sicilians cluster with?
acc. to all serious atDNA studies the closest cluster is amongst the regions themselves and not trans-regional; meaning Sicilians would cluster closest with other Sicilians, Berbers with Berbers and Basques with Basques

Genes mirror geography - J. Novembre et al. (2008) [UCLA]

other examples (Lao et al 2008, Price et al 2008 etc.)
http://dienekes.awardspace.com/articles/greekadna/

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The link between the Basques (ancient Iberians in total) and the Sicilians is Historically; the Sicani being ancient-Iberians

James C. Prichard - Ethnography of Europe: Vol.III (1841)
"Thucydides commences his narrative of the war of the Athenians in Sicily with a particular account of that island, and of the races of people who inhabited it.....The Sicani appear to have been the next settlers.......they were Iberes or Iberians: having been expelled from the river Sicanus, in Iberia, by the Ligurians,"

Edwin Guest - Origines Celticae (1883)
"Emporion lay a little north of Barcelona, and in calling it the 'Liguan Emporion', Scylax agrees with Thucydides, who represents the Iberian Sicanoi as having been expelled by the Ligues (Ligures) from the Sikanos i.e. from the basin of the Ebro."

Anthropologically; the dominant Caucasoid sub-race is the Mediterranean amongst Basques and Sicilians
[not really a link, just a fact]

Genetically; R1b-M269 being 30.3% in West Sicily (Sicani) and only 18.4% in East Sicily;
Di Gaetano et al 2009
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/

 

[oreo_cookie]

Also it is important to note both Norman, Phoenician, and Elymian ancestry in western Sicily too. The former contributed to haplogroups like I1 and probably some R1b, whereas the latter two would have contributed much of the J2.

 

[kamani]

Hg E in sicily is still a bit of a mystery.
E-v13 came from balkans.
E-M81 came from Maghreb.
how about E-M123 ??

 

[oreo_cookie]

Hg E in sicily is still a bit of a mystery.
E-v13 came from balkans.
E-M81 came from Maghreb.
how about E-M123 ??

Possibly some sort of Levantine possibly? One of the Greek posters on another site said that some of the subclades in Sicily are Levantine and not Greek.

Btw, this thread is about phenotypical overlap, just wanted to point that out.

 

[Nobody1]

Hg E in sicily is still a bit of a mystery.
E-v13 came from balkans.
E-M81 came from Maghreb.
how about E-M123 ??

Absolutely agree,
E-M123 is is supposed to be Levantine/Near East

Semino et al 2004

the mysterious part is that one might connect it with the Phoenicians and therefor West Sicily,

but West Sicily E-M123 = 2.46% and East Sicily E-M123 = 7.02%; Di Gaetano et al 2009

Might indicate that its Neolithic.

---

Also it is important to note both Norman, Phoenician, and Elymian ancestry in western Sicily too.

Elymnians are not really well attested, prob. the Neolithic population.

The Normannic contributions is more in the West of Sicily (Royal Court / Important Fiefdoms)

I1-M253 = 8.2% in West Sicily [122 samples]; Di Gaetano et al 2009
I1-M253 = 1.7% in East Sicily [114 samples]; Di Gaetano et al 2009

Also R1a = 5.51% (However the sub-clades are not known / not sure if its also Normannic)

Di Gaetano et al 2009
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/

 

[oreo_cookie]

Levantine E1b might be Neolithic and not due to the Phoenicians, but in western Sicily some of the J2 is probably Phoenician.

Elymians were an Anatolian group and might have come from modern day Turkey or Armenia.

 

[adamo]

Elymians where Phoenicians from the area of modern-day Lebanon on the Levantine coast

 

[adamo]

Sicani where a Celtic R1b group; Sicules where a J2 greek invading substratum in my opinion, not more R1b men.