Slavic homeland and ethnogenesis

[LeBrok]

@Milan
are all these words in all slavic dialects?
do we know the first date of their apparition in languages?
do we know the direction of flow?
some of these words are cognates
it's of some weight in historic linguistic - fauna, flora, degree of culture and politic organization have an imput upon loanwords

Pretty much all these words are missing from Norther Slavic dialects, except "blato".

 

[Милан М.]

@Milan
are all these words in all slavic dialects?
do we know the first date of their apparition in languages?
do we know the direction of flow?
some of these words are cognates
it's of some weight in historic linguistic - fauna, flora, degree of culture and politic organization have an imput upon loanwords

Some are found in all,some in South Slavic and East Slavic,South Slavic and West Slavic and some that i put are just in the Southern most dialects bordering Greek see there the exchangings,borrowings are highest which is to be expected,i can not say the first apparition for most,we can only guess this,i can pinpoint on their diffusion;

Slav(tetratka) Anc.Greek(tetradion) Eng(notebook) found in Southern Slavic and Russian too(Belorussian and Ukranian?)maybe OCS via Greek, i don't know if it was used there maybe from Greek?


Slav (blato) Greek (valto) Eng(mud) found in Southern Slavic and all other Slavic languages,proto-Slavic *bolto but is considered a Illyrian substratum because is diffused trough the Balkan peninsula with it's cognates.


Slav(klisura) Anc.Greek (kleisoúra) Eng(narrow pass, defile)found in Southern Slavic,what wiktionary tell me is from Anc.Greek,but probably borrowing from Byzantines,it was a term traditionally applied to a fortified mountain pass and the military district protecting it.


Slav(hiljada) Anc.Greek(khiliados) Eng(thousand) among Southern Slavic,this word was present or early borrowing i guess.


Slav(talas) Anc.Greek(thalassa) found in Southern Slavic with meaning of "wave" in the sea,Greek meaning "sea".considered Pre-Greek origin maybe Cretan?but could as well be later borrowing from some other language?


Slav-payment(plata)Anc.Greek-wealth(ploutos)i just proposed a cognate here,but maybe not? "plata" uplata etc found in South Slavic,Czech and Slovak-platba,Polish-płatność,Russian and others uplata.


Slav(korab)Anc.Greek(karabos) Eng(ship,vessel) found in Russian.Polish also but don't know whether have the same meaning of "vessel",however this word is found in Bulgaro-Macedonian dialects,maybe OCS since i don't know the words written there can guess only,proposed Anc.Mac origin,common Slavic "čьlnъ" and OCS "ladija" for boat,also"brod" for "boat" in South Slavic,but same word "brod" with meaning of "ford" in common Slavic. See Thracian "burd"(ford,boat).


Slav(kit) Anc.Greek(ketos)Old Armenian(kēt) Eng(whale) Classical Syriac (qē(ʾ)ṭā) Latin (cetus)The origin is unknown. Probably a Pre-Greek word,found in Southern Slavic and Eastern Slavic dialects,West Slavic "welryba".


Slav (oro) Greek (horo) This words and it's cognates are among South-East Europe as well it's origin.


Slav (kinisa) Anc.Greek(kinisa) Eng(move, start, arouse) Homer use it in form of "kineo" simple past "kinisa" this word you can find only among dialects in Slavic Macedonia or Bulgaria?when was adopted,exchanged i don't know.



Slav (odi) Homeric (oudos) descendants>Greek(odos) Eng(threshold road, path, way) i proposed the common Slavic (hodŭ) cognate "to walk" and "odi" is the same from "hodŭ".


Slav(drum) Anc.Greek (dromos) Eng (roadway, road, street, way) found in South Slavic.


Slav(magdonos) Ancient Greek (μακεδονήσι) Armenian(maladanos) Eng(parsley)reffered as Macedonian herb,here is complicated because it say that Anc.Greek (μακεδονήσι)-makedonesi,was adopted by Arabic then transmitted to Ottomans then Greek later adopted it from Ottomans in form of (maïntanós) but i compare the Mygdones they were too living in Macedonia,their region being Mygdonia pretty similar names.


Slav(komad) Anc.Greek(kommation) Eng(piece,part) among Southern Slavic.


Slav(lamja)Anc.Greek(lamia)faboulous monster in mythology that eat man flash,among South Slavic,maybe only in Bulgarian,Macedonian,Serbian regions,don't know whether exist in the rest,however this is mythological word.


Slav-storm(bura) Anc.Greek-north wind(boreas) i proposed cognate here in South Slavic the meaning is "storm".From Proto-Slavic *bur'a, akin to Bulgarian буря ‎(burja), Slovene burja, Serbo-Croatian бура/bura, Slovak búrka ‎(“tempest”) and búrať ‎(“to crush”)


Slav(kokala)Anc.Greek(kokkalos) Eng(bone)found in Bulgaro-Macedonian dialects,common Slavic "kost".


Slav(kamata)Anc.Greek(kamatos)Eng(finance-interest) among Southern Slavic.


Slav(dodola) compare Anc.Greek(dodona) Boettian(doedala)South East Europe (South Slavic,Romanian and Anc.Greek) and all it's cognates.

 

[Taranis]

One issue that should be brought up, which easily explains why most of these Greek words must be recent loanwords (that is, since the middle ages or later) - is the phonetic evolution of the Slavic languages (and to a lesser degree, the phonetic evolution of Greek).

Proto-Balto-Slavic had merged short vowels from (late) PIE *o > *a (a similar development you can see in Germanic). This means that a short *a in Balto-Slavic corresponded regularly to *a and *o in Celtic, Greek and Italic. Slavic at a later point shifted the inherited (Balto-Slavic) *a to *o, and in turn, the long *ā from Proto-Balto-Slavic was shortened to *a. This was a very late sound change (it occured at the conclusion of the Migration Period, in my opinion) because Latin place names on the Balkans are regularly shifted by it (I gave the example of how "Tragurium" became "Trogir". Another example would be "Salina" to Solin"). Germanic loanwords in Slavic are generally shifted towards this sound change, while with the Greek words Milan listed here, Greek /a/ corresponds 1:1 with /a/ in the Slavic samples (the same applies for /o/). For the sake of completeness, I should note that Germanic long *ō was generally rendered as *ū into Slavic (I gave the example of the word for "beech" much earlier in the thread, from Proto-Germanic *bōk-). Instead, in the Greek loanwords, Greek *o just becomes plain *o, meaning it was borrowed at a later point.

 

[Милан М.]

Now we should move the time a bit that Christianity spread in the 12th century because words from Paleo-Mythology are simple the same,borrowings?while trough the migration period,Slavonic migration in particular Roman empire was already Christian,from whom they "borrowed" them some "Romanized" peasants i guess were yet pagans?plus in most of those words i don't see sound change from *a to *o,to speak as well that herb names are recent borrowings are beyond doubt truth?

 

[MOESAN]

@ thanks Milan -
but I have to "swallow" all that get down into my brain guts" -
I think the evolved loanwords can be considered as the older ones, and that is of some worth to prove ancient contacts with South Balkans only if they appear in almost all the slavic dialects and not only in southern ones, am I right?

 

[MOESAN]

thanks, Lebrok

 

[Милан М.]

@ thanks Milan -
but I have to "swallow" all that get down into my brain guts" -
I think the evolved loanwords can be considered as the older ones, and that is of some worth to prove ancient contacts with South Balkans only if they appear in almost all the slavic dialects and not only in southern ones, am I right?

You are welcome,i wrote them words to show that some dialects had more contact with other languages not about Slavic in particular,i give Taranis reputation he certainly know his job and theory he stay behind,i just researched some words in free time apart i like history.

 

[qqq]

Welcome in forum,
I think that homeland of Slavs is located between Odra and Dnieper rivers (in Poland known as autochtonic theory) and they are related to haplogroups both R1a1 M458 and Z280, prevalent there since ca. 3000 BC.
First name of Slavs were probably Neuri, saved by Herodotus. In Roman Times, they were saved as Venedae (1st century AD), which has, in my opinion Proto-Slavic origin from *vęt which means "great" (Polish: większy), the same means name Sporoi (Polish: sporzy) mentioned in 6th century by Procopius. They lived between Odra and Dnieper and were creators of Przeworsk (together with Celtic and Germanic tribes) and Zarubintsy cultures. Name Venedae was connected with Slavs and Antes (probably Sarmatian-Slavic mixed tribe) by Jordanes in 6th century.
Also, I think that Slavic homeland had to be so big (ca 1 million people) to colonizing of Southern Europe could be possible. Genetic structures of Poland, Belarus and Ukraine are very similar, what denies that Slavic people in Poland migrated from the east.

 

[LeBrok]

Welcome in forum,
I think that homeland of Slavs is located between Odra and Dnieper rivers (in Poland known as autochtonic theory) and they are related to haplogroups both R1a1 M458 and Z280, prevalent there since ca. 3000 BC.
First name of Slavs were probably Neuri, saved by Herodotus. In Roman Times, they were saved as Venedae (1st century AD), which has, in my opinion Proto-Slavic origin from *vęt which means "great" (Polish: większy), the same means name Sporoi (Polish: sporzy) mentioned in 6th century by Procopius. They lived between Odra and Dnieper and were creators of Przeworsk (together with Celtic and Germanic tribes) and Zarubintsy cultures. Name Venedae was connected with Slavs and Antes (probably Sarmatian-Slavic mixed tribe) by Jordanes in 6th century.

It all is just unconfirmed speculations, though for the lack of information quite possible. In future, when we have many ancient DNA from the area, we should be able to confirm this by autosomal comparison of populations.

Also, I think that Slavic homeland had to be so big (ca 1 million people) to colonizing of Southern Europe could be possible. Genetic structures of Poland, Belarus and Ukraine are very similar, what denies that Slavic people in Poland migrated from the east.

The slavic population didn't need to be huge because central Europe and Balkans were depopulated from wars and plagues, before and during Slavic expansion.

Welcome to Eupedia qqq.

 

[qqq]

I think also that Przeworsk culture, which was continuation of Lusatian culture, created by people with R1a1 M458 was inhabited by Proto-Slavs tribes, so Proto-Slavic etymologies of the names of the tribes could be correct. Culture Sukow-Dziedzice is also considered as a continuation of Przeworsk culture.
* Lugii could refer to "Ludzie" (People).
* Helisii - "Kaliszanie" (People from Kalisz).
* Aelvaeones - "Opolanie" (People from Opole).
* Harii - usually in publications refers to Gothic "harjan" (army), but also Slavic word "harit'" means "to burn".
* Nahanarvali - "Nadnarwianie" (Over Narew).
* Manimi - ?
* Diduni - "Dziadoszanie"
* Buri - "Bobrzanie" (Over Bóbr) ?
* Omani - ?
* Mugilones - "Mogilanie" (People from Mogilno).
* Zumi, Butones and Sibini probably also have Slavic etymology as "Szumowie", "Butonowie" and "Siwinowie".
* Corconti - "Karkonoszanie".

These tribes had a strong Celtic influential in culture, religion and technologies. Since late 2nd century AD they were ruled by Germanic tribes as Vandals, Hasdings and Silingi, many of them left Poland in early 5th century AD.
Anthropological (Piontek, Iwanek & Segeda, 2008) and genetic studies (analysis of mtDNA, Grzybowski, Bygdoszcz University) claimed continuity of settlement in Poland between Roman times and Middle ages.

 

[Taranis]

I think also that Przeworsk culture, which was continuation of Lusatian culture, created by people with R1a1 M458 was inhabited by Proto-Slavs tribes, so Proto-Slavic etymologies of the names of the tribes could be correct. Culture Sukow-Dziedzice is also considered as a continuation of Przeworsk culture.

As I may have eleborated on earlier in this thread, the Przeworsk culture is not compatible with a Proto-Slavic homeland for several reasons. Notably we do have Przeworsk culture names attested in contemporary Greco-Roman sources.


With your proposed etymologies, I'd like suggest caution:

* Lugii could refer to "Ludzie" (People).

The Slavic word for people is with a "d" (or corresponding dental), as are its cognates in Germanic (e.g. German "Leute" - note that in German, it is shifted further by the upper German consonant shift), where as the Lugians are always spelled with a "g". Its more probable that the name is Celtic in etymology (e.g. "Lugdunum", modern Lyon).

* Helisii - "Kaliszanie" (People from Kalisz).

Why should there be a development "h" > "k"? Also, mind you, Ptolemy possibly mentions the town of Kalisz (as "Calisia"), and its spelled with a "k".

* Aelvaeones - "Opolanie" (People from Opole).

The same problem, where does the "p" come from?

* Harii - usually in publications refers to Gothic "harjan" (army), but also Slavic word "harit'" means "to burn".

You also have modern German "Heer" (army), Norwegian "hær", Swedish "här", etc. The name clearly exhibits the sound shift associated with Grimm's Law, hence it is Germanic.

* Nahanarvali - "Nadnarwianie" (Over Narew).

* Manimi - ?
* Diduni - "Dziadoszanie"
* Buri - "Bobrzanie" (Over Bóbr) ?
* Omani - ?
* Mugilones - "Mogilanie" (People from Mogilno).
* Zumi, Butones and Sibini probably also have Slavic etymology as "Szumowie", "Butonowie" and "Siwinowie".
* Corconti - "Karkonoszanie".

I'd like to point out that we actually know a fair bit about the internal evolution of Proto-Slavic, in particular also the sequence of palatalizations, and the evolution of the vowel system (I described that in a post earlier on this page). It is also noteworthy that in reverse, it seems probable that the Proto-"Slavic" at the time of the Przeworsk culture would have been still very similar to other Balto-Slavic languages (or undifferentiated Proto-Balto-Slavic), and the key sound changes that set the Slavic languages apart occured only during the migration period.

 

[Sile]

I think also that Przeworsk culture, which was continuation of Lusatian culture, created by people with R1a1 M458 was inhabited by Proto-Slavs tribes, so Proto-Slavic etymologies of the names of the tribes could be correct. Culture Sukow-Dziedzice is also considered as a continuation of Przeworsk culture.
* Lugii could refer to "Ludzie" (People).
.

your not mixing these with the Lutici

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutici

These Lutici are with the VELETI who domi9nated the upper vistula river

They are not related to either Veneti or Venedi

A lot of slavs mix these Veleti with Venedi ..........2 different ethnic races

 

[Dule84]

FRom my point of view, the tribe would Lugii interpreted in this way:
LUG on slavs language is a forest
Lug / Lug-ii / Lug-LJi = people who live in the forest.
The voice of LJ does not exist in Latin or in the Germanic languages, nor is there an appropriate letter in the alphabet for flagging this voice so that is probably Latin enumerators had to improvise when writing the name of the tribe of LUGLJI in LUGII. Lugica or Luzhica = small forest. Luzhichki S(e)orbs / Lusatian Sorbs = Sorbs who living in a small forest. In my opinion tribe Lugii has some linguistic connection with the Lusatian Sorbs.

 

[qqq]

I think that ethnicity of Lugii and other tribes of Przeworsk and Wielbark cultures will be known after results of research of fossil Y-DNA, which is scheduled for 2014-2019.
Most of R1b and I1 haplogroups will confirm Celtic and Germanic origin of tribes (in Poland allochtonic theory of Slavic ethnogenesis) and most of R1a1 - Proto-Slavic origin (in Poland autochtonic theory of Slavic ethnogenesis).
Genetics think that there will be most of R1a1, which is prevalent in Polish terrains since 3000 BC. Slavic languages are also very archaic form of Ind-European languages.
Names of tribes from the ancient chronicles could be deformed by authors due to difficulties with notation names in foreign language, especially Slavic :wary2: For example, in 9th century "Bavarian Geographer" had a lot of problems to describe Slavic tribes in Poland, e.g. "Obodryci" were written as "Osterabtrezi", "Hawelanie" as "Hehfeldi", "Morawianie" as "Marharii", swapping of letter was also common, "Goplanie" were written as "Glopeani". Only half of tribes were deciphered. Probably with ancient Lugii there is the same problem.

 

[Taranis]

I think that ethnicity of Lugii and other tribes of Przeworsk and Wielbark cultures will be known after results of research of fossil Y-DNA, which is scheduled for 2014-2019.
Most of R1b and I1 haplogroups will confirm Celtic and Germanic origin of tribes (in Poland allochtonic theory of Slavic ethnogenesis) and most of R1a1 - Proto-Slavic origin (in Poland autochtonic theory of Slavic ethnogenesis).
Genetics think that there will be most of R1a1, which is prevalent in Polish terrains since 3000 BC.
Slavic languages are also very archaic form of Ind-European languages.

Sorry, but that looks to me like a logical fallacy: what you're basically saying there - if I get you right - is that because they lived on the area of modern Poland, and because Poles today speak a Slavic language, therefore they (the Lugii) must have been Slavic, too. By the same logic, the Burgundians (who inhabited the same area as the Lugii, as a matter of fact, according to Ptolemy - they were immediate neighbours) - they must have been Slavic, too. Which, for sure, they weren't (the name element *burg- should be a giveaway).

As regards the position of the Slavic languages inside European, the general consensus is that they are most closely related with the Baltic languages. And "very archaic" is not the word I would use for the Slavic languages. I would describe Hittite, Mycenaean Greek and Vedic Sanskrit all as 'very archaic', but not the Slavic languages.


I should also add that Ptolemy lists one of the towns of the Lugians are "Lugidunum", with the element *dūno- (Celtic for 'fort' or 'fortified settlement', see Irish "dún"). Further, there was another ethnic group named the "Lugi" found in Caledonia (modern Scotland).

Names of tribes from the ancient chronicles could be deformed by authors due to difficulties with notation names in foreign language, especially Slavic :wary2: For example, in 9th century "Bavarian Geographer" had a lot of problems to describe Slavic tribes in Poland, e.g. "Obodryci" were written as "Osterabtrezi", "Hawelanie" as "Hehfeldi", "Morawianie" as "Marharii", swapping of letter was also common, "Goplanie" were written as "Glopeani". Only half of tribes were deciphered. Probably with ancient Lugii there is the same problem.

On a theoretical level, I would agree, but I would like to point out two things: first the name "Lugii" is consistently spelled with a "g", second with ancient Greek and Latin, it would be more likely that they would use the letters "s" or "z" (which actually were used for rendering both Satem languages - see Dacian or Indo-Iranian languages - and similar sounds in non-Indo-European languages). Also, the Bavarian Geographer is around 700-800 years removed from Ptolemy and Tacitus (who mention the Lugii).

 

[arvistro]

You also have modern German "Heer" (army), Norwegian "hær", Swedish "här", etc. The name clearly exhibits the sound shift associated with Grimm's Law, hence it is Germanic.

Off topic - a cognate to Latvian karš (war), karavīrs (war man)?

 

[Tomenable]

Genetic studies on conquest-period Hungarians and modern Hungarians:

Tömöry: http://doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/1088/3/Tömöry_tézisek-angol.pdf

Csányi et al.: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2008.00440.x/abstract

Szécsényi-Nagy: http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte/2015/4075/pdf/doc.pdf

Found no genetic continuity between original Hungarians and modern Hungarians (for example if you check the last link, then in Table 8. on page 137 you can see that continuity of informative haplotypes between a sample of 25 conquest-era Hungarians and 284 modern Hungarians amounts to... zero percent).

=======================================

By contrast, genetic studies on Przeworska and Wielbark DID find continuity of informative haplotypes between those populations and modern Poles - stronger than with any other modern population. So, modern Poles are more "Przeworskian and Wielbarkian" than modern Hungarians are Hungarian (!):

Juras Polish: https://repozytorium.amu.edu.pl/bitstream/10593/2702/1/Anna Juras Praca doktorska.pdf

Juras English: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0110839

 

[Taranis]

Off topic - a cognate to Latvian karš (war), karavīrs (war man)?

For sure. You also have Old Irish "cuire" ('army'), Gaulish "corio-", and further Greek "koiranos" (κοιρανος - 'ruler', 'master' or 'commander').

 

[arvistro]

Genetic studies on conquest-period Hungarians and modern Hungarians:

Tömöry: http://doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/1088/3/Tömöry_tézisek-angol.pdf

Csányi et al.: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2008.00440.x/abstract

Szécsényi-Nagy: http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte/2015/4075/pdf/doc.pdf

Found no genetic continuity between original Hungarians and modern Hungarians (for example if you check the last link, then in Table 8. on page 137 you can see that continuity of informative haplotypes between a sample of 25 conquest-era Hungarians and 284 modern Hungarians amounts to... zero percent).

=======================================

By contrast, genetic studies on Przeworska and Wielbark DID find continuity of informative haplotypes between those populations and modern Poles - stronger than with any other modern population. So, modern Poles are more "Przeworskian and Wielbarkian" than modern Hungarians are Hungarian (!):

Juras Polish: https://repozytorium.amu.edu.pl/bitstream/10593/2702/1/Anna Juras Praca doktorska.pdf

Juras English: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0110839

A lot of info in the links above.
Have they found which modern populations are most similar to those 25 conquest-era Hungarians?

 

[Milan]

Orion constellation and Svetovid in Slavic mythology;
The depiction from the so called Bogomil medieval tombs in Bosnia most probably that of the Slavic deity Svantevit and his remarkable similarities with Orion also known as the hunter;

Some astrologhists claim that the star above his hand was so big in the year 1054 so this people document it.

The Rani or Rujani (German: Ranen, Rujanen) were a West Slavic tribe based on the island of Rugia (Rügen) and the southwestern mainland across the Strelasund in what is today northeastern Germany.
Picture A priest of Svantevit depicted on a stone from Arkona, now in the church of Altenkirchen;

They most probably worshiped the Orion or it is depicted in this form without the arrow;

Here is couple and more depictions of the Orion;