Social classes still matter in Britain

[Minty]

You still don't get it, do you ? Republic has nothing to do with social classes. As I explained earlier, the least stratified countries in the world are monarchies (Scandinavian countries, Netherlands, Japan...), while some of the most startified countries are republics (India, USA, France, Russia, most African and South American countries...).
If you go back to the power distance concept (lined above), we can get an idea of which countries accept the most big gaps between the bottom and top of society. It doesn't mean that such societies are the most stratified. Conversely, a country with low power distance could be very stratified, but would risk a revolution. If you check the statitics by country, you will see that Malaysia is ranked as the country with the highest power distance in the world, so the one where people at the bottom of society accept and expect the most that power is distributed unequally.

You say that "the least stratified countries in the world are monarchies (Scandinavian countries, Netherlands, Japan...); while some of the most stratified countries are republics (India, USA, France, Russia, most African and South American countries...)."

Malaysia has monarchy! And the country is very stratified.

Thailand also has monarchy and so does Brunei!

Saudi Arabia that ranked 80 also has monarchies!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...f_Saudi_Arabia

Ghana also has royalty. It is ranked 77.

http://www.assatashakur.org/forum/sh...ad.php?t=11236

So does Kuwait. 80.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nawaf_A...Jaber_Al-Sabah

Germanic countries and Israel are those that expect the most egalitarian systems. We know that it works well in high-taxes high-distribution countries like in Scandinavia, but poorly in ultra-liberal English-speaking countries (USA and Australia on top). We see that India has a high score (77), which mean that it is part of the culture to accept social inequalities, which is true. But France also ranks quite high (68, the highest in Europe), which means that the French accept and expect society to be unequal, despite all the egalitarian values of the French Revolution (let us not forget that France got 2 monarchies and 2 empires after the French Revolution, with restoration of the aristocracy and priviledges).

I can see that the countries that have less power distance that have monarchies are all moneyed countries.

 

[Maciamo]

Finally you seem to understand that there is no link between social class and monarchies or republics ! :relief: I was wondering how long it would take. It is so obvious that it is unrelated because many countries have passed from monarchies to republic. All European countries were monarchies until 1918. Cultures doesn't change so quickly. In fact it can takes centuries, if not millenia for basic cultural traits to change. The Scandinavians were already very egalitarian over 1000 years ago. They were the ones with the first true democracies in Europe (the ancient Greeks had slaves), and the first parliamentary system (in Iceland and the Isle of Man, both Viking colonies). France passed from monarchy to republic to empire to monarchy to republic to empire to republic in less than 100 years ! But French culture hasn't changed during that time. It is the best proof that political system and stratification of society are unrelated. So please stop arguing that French people are egalitarian and don't care about social classes because they are a Republic. That is absurd.

 

[Minty]

Finally you seem to understand that there is no link between social class and monarchies or republics ! :relief: I was wondering how long it would take. It is so obvious that it is unrelated because many countries have passed from monarchies to republic. All European countries were monarchies until 1918. Cultures doesn't change so quickly. In fact it can takes centuries, if not millenia for basic cultural traits to change. The Scandinavians were already very egalitarian over 1000 years ago. They were the ones with the first true democracies in Europe (the ancient Greeks had slaves), and the first parliamentary system (in Iceland and the Isle of Man, both Viking colonies). France passed from monarchy to republic to empire to monarchy to republic to empire to republic in less than 100 years ! But French culture hasn't changed during that time. It is the best proof that political system and stratification of society are unrelated. So please stop arguing that French people are egalitarian and don't care about social classes because they are a Republic. That is absurd.

You are saying France is like countries like Taiwan or China who have had a revolution and hence their aristocrats axed. However tho' the country has turned into a republic, the ideology of class is still very present in the society.

The Index shows which countries bear the biggest breaches betwixt the lowermost and upper side of the societies. Regardless of whether the society is a republic or a kingdom egalitarian exists in both types of countries.

Withal you shouldn?ft have used examples that have monarchies that just so happened to be more equal to France (especially I don?ft know much about almost all of those countries). There are countries out there that still have monarchies and their societies are not egalitarian. Like Malaysia, Brunei, Thailand. You have confused me there?c

Next time just point me directly to studies done by scholars of why you come up with that conclusion. It is a lot clearer to me that way.

 

[gaijinalways]

The samurai were not a social class, they were a caste. The difference is that one can never change caste, and most often cannot marry outside their caste.

Good point, that was more in jest my comment than anything else. Yet the samurai lineage is viewed by many Japanese like titles in England. They in other words, believe it bestows some form of 'class'.

Quote:Originally Posted by Minty
I didn't say they don't exist, I say the French don't think they exist and they don't pay a lot of attention to social class, like the Americans.

Hmm, sounds odd. Most of my friends don't, though I am not very class conscious.

My point was that I don't think Americans spend a lot of time talking about class and many are not that concerned with it.

Why does it sound odd? Who are most of your friends? Americans? Japanese?

Not sure why that would be important. Obviously since I was talking about French and Americans, I was referring more to my American and French friends. In other words, the Japanese that I know aren't mentioned in this part of the discussion.

 

[Minty]

My point was that I don't think Americans spend a lot of time talking about class and many are not that concerned with it.

It is not the second part of the sentence that I find strange it is the part where you said it sounds odd. I find this weird because I made the comment that French don't pay a lot of attention to social class, like the Americans.?h And you think that is odd and I want to know why. I perfectly understand your sentence that follows.

Not sure why that would be important. Obviously since I was talking about French and Americans, I was referring more to my American and French friends. In other words, the Japanese that I know aren't mentioned in this part of the discussion.

No it is not at all obvious to me. I don?ft know anything about you except that you are a Gaijin from America in Japan. How would I know that you have French friends? Not all Americans have French friends, in fact from the net I get the impression that Americans and French don?ft get along. It is very possible Japanese friends of yours have commented about French. It would be important because Japanese, French and Americans don?ft think the same.

 

[Ma Cherie]

Americans really don't care about social class. That's probably why it's based mostly on income and what kind of car you have and general appearances. What social class you belong to is just simply a label and nothing more.

 

[gaijinalways]

Sorry Minty,
Your original statement

Quote:Originally Posted by Minty
I didn't say they don't exist, I say the French don't think they exist and they don't pay a lot of attention to social class, like the Americans.

has two meanings, and I unfortunately took it to mean that the French don't pay a lot of attention to social class, but the Americans do. My apologies for any confusion caused.

How would I know that you have French friends? Not all Americans have French friends, in fact from the net I get the impression that Americans and French don?ft get along. It is very possible Japanese friends of yours have commented about French. It would be important because Japanese, French and Americans don?ft think the same.

You wouldn't know that, except that I have told you now (about the French friends). Also of course, it would include any French colleagues (possibly not 'real' friends) I have and their opinions about this same subject matter.
As to my Japanese friends commenting about the French, I thought it was fairly clear I wasn't telling you about their opinions as they weren't mentioned when I made my intial statement (i.e. My Japanese friends think....).
Yes, different cultures definately don't think the same, though I would be more likely to say the English and the French don't get along (rather than the Americans and the French).

 

[gaijinalways]

Americans really don't care about social class. That's probably why it's based mostly on income and what kind of car you have and general appearances. What social class you belong to is just simply a label and nothing more.

For some it is, but income is not an end all, for all. If you have income but are preceived as a crook (as noted earlier), most Americans will look down on you. Also if you are perceived as being in an occupation that is not seen as being honest, i.e. a used car salesperson or a lawyer, than you may also be looked down upon. Personally, I judge people by their actions and statements than how much money they make. In my case, clothes don't make the man (or person).

 

[Ma Cherie]

For some it is, but income is not an end all, for all. If you have income but are preceived as a crook (as noted earlier), most Americans will look down on you. Also if you are perceived as being in an occupation that is not seen as being honest, i.e. a used car salesperson or a lawyer, than you may also be looked down upon. Personally, I judge people by their actions and statements than how much money they make. In my case, clothes don't make the man (or person).

Bingo!

 

[Maciamo]

Personally, I judge people by their actions and statements than how much money they make. In my case, clothes don't make the man (or person).

Then you are almost what fits my definition of a class-conscious person in Europe; money and clothes don't matter, what makes someone's class is in their mind, it is the way they talk, their opinions, their tastes, their values... Believe it or not, in old societies like Europe, where culture isn't the result of a melting pot but of a long evolution to adapt to people's sensitivities by region, you are much more likely to agree and become friend with someone of the same social class than someone else. Naturally there are other things that divide people even within the same social class, and in my experience I have found that religious beliefs was the most divisive of them. Fortunately in most of Europe religion is very homogenous (most countries are traditionally either Catholic OR one particular type of Protestantism, except the UK and Germany that are mixed), unlike in the USA. I therefore understand that Americans are more divided by religious affiliation (hundreds of them) than by social class (only a few of them). In Europe, rather than religious affiliation (usually only one by region), it is the degree of religiousness that divides.

 

[gaijinalways]

I'm not sure if it would be the same, but I will try to clarify more what I stated earlier. I enjoy people who are at least some what upfront. Of course you don't need to tell me all your secrets, or you will share some depending on the closeness of your relationship with me. But I enjoy talking with people who can at least embrace different opinions. People who run from discussions because there are differing views don't impress me very much. often differing views come from different value systems, which influence perceptions.

I have friends who work in blue collar industries, who enjoy simplier lives than I would be happy with, but I don't question why it makes them happy. Hey, it's their lives, who am I tell them how to live them?

As to religion, its influence in my life is minimal. I am happy to enjoy nature, that is why sometimes the artificialness of the city depresses me at times. People arguing over 'god' is like argueing over whose language's word is better or more correct for an object. They are all labels for the same thing, so of course none of them are 'better' or more correct than one from another language.

 

[Minty]

Sorry Minty,
Your original statement
has two meanings, and I unfortunately took it to mean that the French don't pay a lot of attention to social class, but the Americans do. My apologies for any confusion caused.

That's ok, as long as we come to an understanding, after all this is an international forum.

You wouldn't know that, except that I have told you now (about the French friends). Also of course, it would include any French colleagues (possibly not 'real' friends) I have and their opinions about this same subject matter.
As to my Japanese friends commenting about the French, I thought it was fairly clear I wasn't telling you about their opinions as they weren't mentioned when I made my intial statement (i.e. My Japanese friends think....).

Hmm, sounds odd. Most of my friends don't, though I am not very class conscious. I see it a lot here in Japan, even though some still believe in the myth of 'one class' (though how class is expressed here is sometimes more likley to be through luxary brand and name dropping, not family history). But than again how many people are related to a real samurai?

You just said most of your friends don't and that you are not very class conscious, you didn't say most of your American and French friends don't.

You friends can be of any nationalities, but I have guessed Americans and Japanese because of where you come from and where you are living right now.

Yes, different cultures definately don't think the same, though I would be more likely to say the English and the French don't get along (rather than the Americans and the French).

I see, is this your personal experience? It is just that I have seen numerous hostilities toward French from Americans in their message boards.

 

[gaijinalways]

Yes, but historically the French and the British have not gotten along for years, the Concorde service and the Eurotunnel being exceptions (that of course doesn't stop many British tourists from going to France, and vice versa, though I do think the French are getting the worse end of the deal).
Minty posted

You just said most of your friends don't and that you are not very class conscious, you didn't say most of your American and French friends don't.

But I was talking about Americans within the context of my posts, please look at my original posts to confirm that (related to the thread title and Maciamo's first post and subsequent link to the Economist article). I was questioning why you (mistakenly on my part) and Maciamo thought that Americans were more socially class conscious than British people (more so than the French, though I would opine the French are more class conscious than Americans, but I can not speak on that matter with as much authority as you or Maciamo can).

 

[Maciamo]

I was questioning why you (mistakenly) and Maciamo thought that Americans were more socially class conscious than British people (more so than the French, though I would opine the French are more class conscious than Americans, but I can not speak on that matter with as much authority as you or Maciamo can).

I never said that American were class conscious, on the contrary. The Economist never said that either. You are confusing two fundamental, yet completely different concepts :

1) the actual division of society in classes, and real gaps between classes

2) class consciousness (they way people perceive and care about the above division)

The USA has big gaps between its social classes, as much for money as for education or behaviour, but for some cultural reason the American people do not like admitting those divisions, or they are just bad at recognising which social class they belong to. The same is true of the French to a lesser extent. France is probably as divided, if not more, than Britain, but French people aren't as class conscious as the Brits, or at least in a less direct manner. I think that many French people do socialise within their class, but more unconsciously than the Brits.

 

[gaijinalways]

Maciamo posted

) the actual division of society in classes, and real gaps between classes

2) class consciousness (they way people perceive and care about the above division)

The USA has big gaps between its social classes, as much for money as for education or behaviour, but for some cultural reason the American people do not like admitting those divisions, or they are just bad at recognising which social class they belong to.

No, I am talking about the consciousness of the class differences, and I am saying that the Americans I know and associate with are not that concerned with them. Yes, I am very aware that there are major class differences in the US, but to state it bluntly, I have found there are assholes in all classes. The only differences might be that the richer assholes can perhaps bullshit more eloquently and can afford things that perhaps we may only dream about, but that we probably really don't need. But than again, I sleep comfortably at night because I know I didn't screw anyone over to get to where I am and I also don't have to fret and worry over what I don't have.

So I would have to ask, how much experience do you have dealing with Americans, especially in the states? I really have to wonder about this international survey also, did they interview all people who live in cities? Were the surveys really truly representative of the populations of each country?

 

[Maciamo]

Maciamo posted
No, I am talking about the consciousness of the class differences, and I am saying that the Americans I know and associate with are not that concerned with them.

Yes, that is exactly what I mean in point 2. The USA has clear social classes (1), but most Americans don't care much about them in their daly life (2).

 

[Minty]

Yes, but historically the French and the British have not gotten along for years, the Concorde service and the Eurotunnel being exceptions (that of course doesn't stop many British tourists from going to France, and vice versa, though I do think the French are getting the worse end of the deal).

I know about the reasons why British and French don't get along, but from my experiences participating in the American message boards I get the feeling that Americans too don't get along with the French. I believe this has something do to with politics.

Minty posted
But I was talking about Americans within the context of my posts, please look at my original posts to confirm that (related to the thread title and Maciamo's first post and subsequent link to the Economist article). I was questioning why you (mistakenly on my part) and Maciamo thought that Americans were more socially class conscious than British people (more so than the French, though I would opine the French are more class conscious than Americans, but I can not speak on that matter with as much authority as you or Maciamo can).

Hmmm, this is strange I didn't say that Americans were more socially class conscious than British people or more so than French. I actually think British is the most class conscious out of the 3 and I used to think Americans and French are about the same until I saw the studies Maciamo directed to me earlier on.

As I am originally from a country where people are very class conscious and not egalitarian, when I have the opportunity to live in western countries and have been studying many western ideologies I find Australians, Americans (I never lived in US but dozens of my mum's Taiwanese relatives live there and still in close contacts with my mum), and French much more egalitarian than where I come from originally.

 

[gaijinalways]

Posted by gaijinalways

Sorry Minty,
Your original statement
has two meanings, and I unfortunately took it to mean that the French don't pay a lot of attention to social class, but the Americans do. My apologies for any confusion caused.

Yes, I know Minty, as I said I mistakenly thought that you thought Americans were very class conscious. I know differently now, as I stated earlier.

Maciamo, stating that Americans know about the differences and aren't concerned about them and that they are unaware of them are two different opinions. You stated earlier that Americans didn't seem to be truly aware of them (bad at recognizing them) or that they didn't like admitting to their existance. I find neither of those statments to be true.

Maciamo posted

....but for some cultural reason the American people do not like admitting those divisions, or they are just bad at recognising which social class they belong to.

I also apologize for using some stronger langauge in my last post. I don't really want to spar over semantics, but your earlier post doesn't have the same meaning as your latest.

 

[ricecake]

Americans really don't care about social class.

Typical ordinary Americans are not class conscious,commonly see themselves as " middle-class " whatever that means.

However,there is a closet " aristocracy " class in America's high society,a world of it's own.

 

[Maciamo]

Typical ordinary Americans are not class conscious,commonly see themselves as " middle-class " whatever that means.

Using my definition of class for Europe, over half of the American people are lower class or lower-middle class, with maybe 30% of middle class, 10-15% of upper middle class, and less than 1% of upper class (no country to my knowledge has more than 1% of upper class anyway - except Monaco ).