Ma Cherie
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The middle-class is a vague, but the reason why alot of Americans consider themselves middle-class is because a large population of Americans are middle-class. And it's subdivided.
Social classes still matter in Britain
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The middle-class is a vague, but the reason why alot of Americans consider themselves middle-class is because a large population of Americans are middle-class. And it's subdivided.
Some new (derogatory) slang words have emerged to describe some varieties of lower class people. For instance chav in England, or beauf in France.
In the French-speaking part of Belgium the word barakî, from Walloon for "travelling showman" who live in a baraque (fairground booth/stall, shanty), has long been used to refer to any neglected and vulgar lower class person.
The Walloons also use the term "Ronny" for lower-class young men who like to show off by driving loudly or dangerously on a moped/scooter or a car, typically with the music playing very loud. This is usually done in small group, and their dressing style reminds of the chavs in England. A close French equivalent is Jacky.
In the French-speaking part of Belgium the word barakî, from Walloon for "travelling showman" who live in a baraque (fairground booth/stall, shanty), has long been used to refer to any neglected and vulgar lower class person.
The Walloons also use the term "Ronny" for lower-class young men who like to show off by driving loudly or dangerously on a moped/scooter or a car, typically with the music playing very loud. This is usually done in small group, and their dressing style reminds of the chavs in England. A close French equivalent is Jacky.
ylebzh
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Exactly ! I do like the way British people assess social classes, it has nothing to do with how big is your bank account, as you can't buy "Education" and by personal experience, lived 9 years in UK, never felt such a huge gap between social classes, encountered people from different backgrounds with no problem, can't say the same about French social classes, yes ! wondering sometimes if they really had a revolution ?
Invictus_88
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Maciamo,
What's your background? You have an almost English sort of class-awareness, though you speak about it all a bit more methodically than any sensible Englishman would.
What's your background? You have an almost English sort of class-awareness, though you speak about it all a bit more methodically than any sensible Englishman would.
I am Belgian, but have lived in England and Australia, among other countries. British people may be more class-aware than most other nationalities, but in every country I have lived social classes do exist; it's just that people do not necessarily think about it consciously.
The class gap isn't as big in all societies. I found it less extreme in Scandinavia and Japan. Belgium and France are similar to the UK, although not always as obvious from one's accent. The two countries (where I have been) were the disparity between social classes is the most extreme are India and the USA. The contrast between the two is that Indians are perfectly aware of these discrepancies, while Americans usually have a tendency to refute the idea of social class, or just like to think of themselves as middle class, even if they are not. In my experience I noticed that American, Japanese and French people aren't very sensitive to the difference between lower-middle, middle and upper-middle class. Yet these three categories encompass the biggest part of the population.
Anordinaryenglishguy
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Hi everyone I'm dan and I'm a 16 year old who has just finished his GCSEs. I want to go into further education but I'm worried if I dont get in. A question I asked myself was what is the difference of acceptance between the classes in the UK preferably England. I come from the midlands as well.
Brett142
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I think really the only people who still identify and care about class are the 'upper' class and the people who still carry titles. These people are few and far between. They think they are the 'shit' and better than everyone else and they live in their own little world of cotillions and champagne dinners and other strange social events to discuss how great they all are and how everyone else is beneath them.
90% of the UK population doesn't give a shit and are just trying to get on with their lives
I think really the only people who still identify and care about class are the 'upper' class and the people who still carry titles. These people are few and far between. They think they are the 'shit' and better than everyone else and they live in their own little world of cotillions and champagne dinners and other strange social events to discuss how great they all are and how everyone else is beneath them.
90% of the UK population doesn't give a shit and are just trying to get on with their lives
himagain
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Maciamo, I agree that America is not the classless society it claims to be. There are a number of classes mostly defined by relative affluence, also by function, education etc.
The BBC posted an interesting article on social class in Britain today. Here are a few excerpts:
"Considering factors like education, salary, professions, and household ownership, the BBC’s own Great British Class Survey discovered seven distinct classes in total, with an elite (representing roughly 6% of the population) residing above a wide spectrum of working and middle classes."
"According to a 2010 report by the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development, Britain is indeed among the worst countries for certain measures of social mobility, with the parents’ wealth strongly influencing the child’s prospects of higher education and a good salary. "
"Tak Wing Chan at University College London, for instance, has found that a child is two-and-a-half times as likely to have a professional or managerial job, if their grandparents were of a higher class."
"Yet Clark suspects that our genes may also play a role. Perhaps some families are just carrying the DNA that helps them succeed, he says. Such genetic determinism tends to be an unpopular idea among many scientists."
As I mentioned a few years ago in this thread, it is not that social classes are more distinct in Britain than elsewhere, but just that British people are just more observant and aware of social classes, be their own or that of other people. As the article says:
"If these results appear to confirm the “inertia” of the British class system, it’s worth considering Clark’s studies of other countries, examining attendance at the USA’s Ivy League colleges and the State Bar Associations listings of attorneys or the American Medical Association, for instance. Despite perceptions of greater social mobility, he found that the rate of change was roughly the same as in Britain. The same turned out to be true for Sweden; although the overall differences in wealth do tend to be smaller between the rich and poor, you still find the same families occupying the more prestigious jobs – such as doctors, lawyers, or university professors."
You can take the test to determine what what your social class would be in the UK: The Great British class calculator: What class are you?
"Considering factors like education, salary, professions, and household ownership, the BBC’s own Great British Class Survey discovered seven distinct classes in total, with an elite (representing roughly 6% of the population) residing above a wide spectrum of working and middle classes."
"According to a 2010 report by the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development, Britain is indeed among the worst countries for certain measures of social mobility, with the parents’ wealth strongly influencing the child’s prospects of higher education and a good salary. "
"Tak Wing Chan at University College London, for instance, has found that a child is two-and-a-half times as likely to have a professional or managerial job, if their grandparents were of a higher class."
"Yet Clark suspects that our genes may also play a role. Perhaps some families are just carrying the DNA that helps them succeed, he says. Such genetic determinism tends to be an unpopular idea among many scientists."
As I mentioned a few years ago in this thread, it is not that social classes are more distinct in Britain than elsewhere, but just that British people are just more observant and aware of social classes, be their own or that of other people. As the article says:
"If these results appear to confirm the “inertia” of the British class system, it’s worth considering Clark’s studies of other countries, examining attendance at the USA’s Ivy League colleges and the State Bar Associations listings of attorneys or the American Medical Association, for instance. Despite perceptions of greater social mobility, he found that the rate of change was roughly the same as in Britain. The same turned out to be true for Sweden; although the overall differences in wealth do tend to be smaller between the rich and poor, you still find the same families occupying the more prestigious jobs – such as doctors, lawyers, or university professors."
You can take the test to determine what what your social class would be in the UK: The Great British class calculator: What class are you?
LeBrok
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Main genetic factor for success could be a very good memory, a genetic parental trait, which will allow to memorise all the material to become a family doctor for example. Other genetic traits helping being successful are perseverance, logical thinking, critical thinking, being social and easygoing, creativity, etc.
When I was a kid in Poland in 70s, where doctor didn't make much more than a factory worker, and intellectual class couldn't send kids to private schools or give them a better start for their money or lack of it, one could see immediate genetic effect even in kindergarten and elementary school. Kids of doctors, lawyers, engineers were learning faster, had better attention, and generally a better logic (though not by a lot). Needless to say they always had better marks than the rest of the class. Kidds of factory workers, simple physical jobs, and parents with social-economic problems, were at the bottom of the score. The effect was mostly genetic, with economic factor lagging far behind.
Example of scientists who had great memory to acquire knowledge to become one, but lack critical and logical thinking to understand complexity of human nature.
We are not going to see their names in scientific breakthroughs, nobel prizes or monumental works.
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Angela
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I definitely think there are genetic factors involved, as unpalatable as that may be for some people.
However, I'm very skeptical of the finding that social mobility is the same in the U.S. as in Britain. If I just look around my own neighborhood, not one of these professionals or business owners has a great-grandparent who was in the professions or even had a university education. The grandfather of the Irish-German American lawyer next door was a cop, the great-grandfather of the Italian-American doctor down the street was a bricklayer, the grandfather of the German-American financial analyst across the street was a postman, my best friend, who was a high school principal, is descended from a Jewish tailor on the lower east side.
I'd like to see the study redone with Americans of European descent so there aren't confounding factors involving racial discrimination, learned dependence etc.
You'd also have to control for IQ. In other words, how easy is it for someone with a high IQ to rise in the US versus Europe.
However, I'm very skeptical of the finding that social mobility is the same in the U.S. as in Britain. If I just look around my own neighborhood, not one of these professionals or business owners has a great-grandparent who was in the professions or even had a university education. The grandfather of the Irish-German American lawyer next door was a cop, the great-grandfather of the Italian-American doctor down the street was a bricklayer, the grandfather of the German-American financial analyst across the street was a postman, my best friend, who was a high school principal, is descended from a Jewish tailor on the lower east side.
I'd like to see the study redone with Americans of European descent so there aren't confounding factors involving racial discrimination, learned dependence etc.
You'd also have to control for IQ. In other words, how easy is it for someone with a high IQ to rise in the US versus Europe.
If you are interested to know into which social class you would fit in Britain, please read this article based on British anthropologist Kate Fox's book Watching the English. As she explains in the book, British social classes are not related to how much money one makes. Some CEO's are working class, while some upper class aristocrats may be broke. Some of the essential determinants of class include:
- the way one speaks
- the way one dresses
- the breed of one's pet
- the type or marmelade one eats
- the words one uses
- what newspaper one reads
- whether we prefer carpeted or hardwood floor
- whether we have matching furniture (typically middle-middle class) or inherited antiques (like the higher classes)
- what type of flower we grow in our garden
- the make of one's car (Mercedes are for nouveaux riches working or lower-middle classes, not for the elite as in other countries) and how messy it is (messier means either upper or working class, depending on the type of car)
There are dozens of other factors. I won't list them all here.
- the way one speaks
- the way one dresses
- the breed of one's pet
- the type or marmelade one eats
- the words one uses
- what newspaper one reads
- whether we prefer carpeted or hardwood floor
- whether we have matching furniture (typically middle-middle class) or inherited antiques (like the higher classes)
- what type of flower we grow in our garden
- the make of one's car (Mercedes are for nouveaux riches working or lower-middle classes, not for the elite as in other countries) and how messy it is (messier means either upper or working class, depending on the type of car)
There are dozens of other factors. I won't list them all here.
Yes they exists in every part of the world. I believe so.