Subdivisions of Polish people

LeBrok said:
You are overdoing it. Do the basic known regions. Later regions should be adjusted according to genetic differences and similarities.
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I'm not overdoing. These are basic regions. Northern Poland is even a cluster of several regions.

Polish Mountains has to be a separate region, it includes highlanders and neighbouring groups:

1a) South-West Poland highlanders: http://niezlomni.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/g.jpg
1b) South-West Poland highlanders: http://www.kultura-regionow.pl/media/Image/mapa_regionow_etnograficznych_malopolski.png

2) South-East Poland highlanders: https://i.imgur.com/V2uQBeX.png
 
Central Poland is historical Ziemia Sieradzko-Łęczycka.

Which part is "overdoing" according to you, LeBrok?
 
Tomenable said:
I'm not overdoing. These are basic regions. Northern Poland is even a cluster of several regions.
Click to expand...

I agree. Do you based it on counties (powiats)? I also proposed dividing Lesser Poland. Carpthian mountain people (Gorals) were influenced by wandering Vallachians, unlike northern Lesser Polanders.

Former German lands are better dividied according to historical regions as Tomenable proposed. Modern Polish voyvodsiphs are not connected to them.
 
If you want to reduce the number of regions compared to my map, then:

1) Eliminate Prussia (add it to Warmia-Masuria; and call it Warmia-Masuria)
2) Eliminate Neumark (and add it to Pomerania), or rename it as Lubuskie.

The rest should stay. Maybe Central Poland can be added to Greater Poland.

Red Ruthenia is an area which became part of Poland in the 1300s. Sudovia-Podlachia also used to be part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania before most of it became part of Poland in the 1500s.
 
mlukas said:
I agree. Do you based it on counties (powiats)?
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Yes, on counties from year 1900 AD (the same as in this map):

https://s3.postimg.org/9w5ybn10x/The_Poles_Map.png

But borders between regions in my map sometimes cross ethno-linguistic divisions (for example Greater Poland is based on pre-1772 borders, and north-western parts had German majority; and Pomerelia is based on the extent of Kashubian language in the 1700s and 1800s, rather than in 1900).

mlukas said:
I also proposed dividing Lesser Poland. Carpthian mountain people (Gorals) were influenced by wandering Vallachians, unlike northern Lesser Polanders.
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Yes, as you suggested I split this area as "Polish Mountains".

But the rest of Lesser Poland should stay as one thing?
 
Tomenable said:

Yes, as you suggested I split this area as "Polish Mountains".

But the rest of Lesser Poland should stay as one thing?
Click to expand...

I think we don't too much evidence to subdivide it more. Lubelskie is already mostly in Red Ruthenia.
 
mlukas said:
I think we don't too much evidence to subdivide it more. Lubelskie is already mostly in Red Ruthenia.
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I agree. And what about these 3 "disputed" areas from my map?:

Pałuki (A), former Kreis Rosenberg (B) and Elbing-Marienburg (C - Żuławy).

==========

Edit: I think that Pałuki should rather be added to Greater Poland.
 
I'm Oberlander in disguise:) Autosomally...
 
So 15 regions in total for Poland:

- Pomerania
- Kashubia (or Pomerelia, if you prefer this name)
- Northern Poland
- Oberland (Upper Prussia; west part of East Prussia)
- Warmia-Masuria*
- Sudovia-Podlachia (Sudovia is too small to be its own thing)
- Neumark (or East Brandenburg, if you prefer)
- Greater Poland
- Central Poland (or Sieradz-Leczyca if you prefer)
- Masovia (Mazovia)
- Lower Silesia (historically as far north as Crossen-Schwiebus)
- Upper Silesia (including Cieszyn, Syców & Namysłów regions)
- Polish Mountains
- Lesser Poland
- Red Ruthenia

*Includes entire Masuria but only southern half of Warmia, this part with Polish-speaking Warmiaks:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warmiak
 
Tomenable said:
You know what guys, Kaliningrad Oblast will be called Prussia and instead let's call this Polish part of Prussia - Oberland (Prusy Górne / Upper Prussia). Because most of it is Oberland (Prusy Górne in Polish), as this map shows:

http://www.zulawy.infopl.info/powisle/img/powisle.jpg

powisle.jpg


http://ostpreussen-exclusiv.de/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Text-Karte-Ostpreussen-600.jpg

Text-Karte-Ostpreussen-600.jpg


So here is my updated proposition (no "disputed" regions anymore):

https://i.imgur.com/M68llFO.png

M68llFO.png
Click to expand...

I agree with brok.....you are overdoing it

you will have people saying what is oberland.........just call it west-prussia

Just have masuria instead of warmia-masuria

central Poland can also be split in 3 and given to its neighbours

polish mountains can go to lesser poland
 
Sile said:
central Poland can also be split in 3 and given to its neighbours
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But it will blur the genetic picture. Central Poland is a region with mixed genetics, influenced by all of its neighbours. I'm splitting off these "mutts" in order to make other regions (neighbouring ones) more "pure". Also Central Poland is a cultura-historical region.

Central Poland is Sieradz Land (Land of Sieradz) + Leczyca Land (Land of Łęczyca):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sieradz_Land

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Łęczyca#Origin_of_the_Name

Central Poland is necessary in order to separate other regions from each other.

It also includes one very large city - Łódź: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Łódź
 
Maciamo said:
I am aware of the Goralic and Rusyn dialects in the Carpathians, but their numbers are so small (a few thousands) that I could not include them separately. Keep in mind that the purpose of these maps on Living DNA is to show the percentage of similarity (or presumed inheritance) of an individual with the hundreds of regions in the Old World in the database.
Click to expand...

The number of Goral descendants is actually significant, it doesn't matter that they no longer speak their traditional folk dialects but switched to Standard Polish. Their DNA is the same, it did not change due to linguistic shifts or cultural shifts.

There are also many transitional, intermediate groups between Gorals and lowlanders.
 
Maciamo said:
I did not list the (...) Kresowiaks
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that ethnically Polish Kresowiaks should join Eastern European and Baltic Projects, because this is where their grandparents and great-grandparents are from. So they should join these Projects:

Ukraine and Belarus - https://www.livingdna.com/en-gb/one-family/research/eastern-europe-caucasus-siberia

Lithuania and Latvia - https://www.livingdna.com/en-gb/one-family/research/nordics-and-baltics

Many of them still reside in these countries, not all of them moved to Poland after the border changes of 1939-1945.

=============

This project seems to be based more on geographical origins than on ethnicities or nationalities.

I already joined it, and they asked me about the birthplaces of grandparents and great-grandparents, but they did NOT ask me about my ethnic or national identity. I think that both types of questions should be asked.

So Polish Kresowiaks will join the Projects for Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania and Latvia, but will indicate their ethnic or national identity as Polish (or mixed Polish-XYZ). At the same time, Germans from present-day area of Poland will join the Polish Project, but will indicate their ethnic identity as German (or mixed German-Polish).

Maciamo,

You should tell them to add questions about national or ethnic identity to their survey.

In addition to questions about birthplaces of grandparents and great-grandparents.

===============

There is a Polish minority even in Estonia (they are also one of Kresowiak groups):

http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2014/02/genetic-affinities-of-estonian-poles.html
 
LeBrok said:
Do the basic known regions.
Click to expand...

That's what I did, and I got 15 regions, which is just the right number.

If you go by modern administrative divisions, you get 16 voivodeships.
 
Maciamo said:
I subdivided Upper and Lower Silesians (because of the higher German influence in the latter)
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Northern Poland should also be a separate region (see the map I posted in posts #48 and #53). And it has high German (including Teutonic Order's) influences, at least cultural and political. We will see if genetic research confirms this.
 
Tomenable said:
The number of Goral descendants is actually significant, it doesn't matter that they no longer speak their traditional folk dialects but switched to Standard Polish. Their DNA is the same, it did not change due to linguistic shifts or cultural shifts.

There are also many transitional, intermediate groups between Gorals and lowlanders.
Click to expand...
What about Goral DNA and nearby regions is there any separate study or can you give percentage of dominant haplo's there?
 
Milan.M said:
What about Goral DNA and nearby regions is there any separate study or can you give percentage of dominant haplo's there?
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They will be in "Polish Mountains" region (see my maps posted before).

I'm not aware of any genetic studies about Gorals published to date.

I expect some Balkan (Vlach origin) haplogroups to show up among them.
 
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