Teal people found: Caucasians!

[bicicleur 2]

the time line is this
K , next

K1 ( which is T and L )

next
K2a ( which is N and O )

next
K2b ( which is P, with later M, S, Q and R )

they did not split off each other at the same time

estimated TMRCA :

K 43.9 ka
K2 43.5 ka
K2b 43.5 ka

this is just 400 years

(allthough the absolute date cannot be correct : Ust-Ishim is +/- 45 ka and is pré-K2a)

 

[MOESAN]

there seems to be a common misconception about "Teal/CHG ", WHG, ENF, or all these components we speak of for that matter e.g. I hear it said that "Teal has alot of ANE", or "(Karelia/Samara) EHG already had Teal" etc.
My understanding is that there is no "ANE in Teal", but rather MA-1, the model ANEer, had a large component of Teal. Teal is just a pattern of allele frequencies found in Eurasia, as with all these other "populations"/components we speak of.
So (Karelia/Samara) EHG didn't have "Teal and ANE", but rather EHG had ANE, part of which includes the Teal component, because it came along with other ANE components. Because of this we would assume an "ANE" Teal origin rather than a CHG in this case.
This is of course all dependent on what we're comparing to, and what we're calling everything.
This is why the more ancient samples (MA-1, Kostenki, and Ust-Ishim) contain several of these components in large chunks. They're upstream closer to the Basal Eurasian roots which should have carried a piece of all of these components.

Good point - all you say explains why we have so often discrepancies in comparisons of diverse components among ancient and current populations, components of different age and different "depth". CHG is not exactly 'westasian', 'westasian' can be broken down in more than a part, 'ANE' could present in more than ONE more recent component and so on... things changed as time passed: the today 'caucasus' component is not exactly the pure heir of CHG;
my first generation brain (salon 1948-49) is too slow to make a well weighted answer just now but you put yout finger on it!

 

[holderlin]

Good point - all you say explains why we have so often discrepancies in comparisons of diverse components among ancient and current populations, components of different age and different "depth". CHG is not exactly 'westasian', 'westasian' can be broken down in more than a part, 'ANE' could present in more than ONE more recent component and so on... things changed as time passed: the today 'caucasus' component is not exactly the pure heir of CHG;
my first generation brain (salon 1948-49) is too slow to make a well weighted answer just now but you put yout finger on it!

Yeah, I think I may have contradicted the above statement when speaking of the findings in the paper in a subsequent post, but that was going with all that the paper suggest and I don't know if I buy all of it. Even though nearly all Teal, these samples are still young compared to Kostenki, MA-1, etc. and all of the Pleistocene samples contain large percentages of multiple components.

To me this suggests that pre-LGM Eurasians were robust mixtures of components that later homogenized through various mechanisms, the obvious scenario being in isolated ice refuges.

 

[MOESAN]

There were surely more simpler admixtures than the today components which have their drift by isolation, their undergone selection and their new "creations" by mutation; in fact, apart mutations, all that is redistribution, a dynamic phenomenon

 

[holderlin]

There were surely more simpler admixtures than the today components which have their drift by isolation, their undergone selection and their new "creations" by mutation; in fact, apart mutations, all that is redistribution, a dynamic phenomenon

Yes exactly. Things still don't make sense though. We need some super old samples from South Asia and the Middle east.

 

[Jason Neuharth]

Nobody should be surprised that I'm particularly interested in this study finding Paleolithic Y-DNA I2 in Switzerland.

After 4 days of working with 18Gb bam file I have the Y snp and Mtdna for Switzerland Grotte du Bichon M 13,560–13,770 cal. BP I2a U5b1h
he is positive for I2a1a2a L1286 which downstream from missing y-dna SNPs I2a1 P37.2/PF4004 and I2a1a CTS595.

 

[sparkey]

After 4 days of working with 18Gb bam file I have the Y snp and Mtdna for Switzerland Grotte du Bichon M 13,560–13,770 cal. BP I2a U5b1h
he is positive for I2a1a2a L1286 which downstream from missing y-dna SNPs I2a1 P37.2/PF4004 and I2a1a CTS595.

Thanks, really interesting! That's an ancestral marker to the subclades known by the Nordtvedt nicknames of I2a-Western and I2a-Alpine. Both have modern carriers close by, especially Alpine. Also of interest is that this sample dates between the yfull estimates for the clade age and the modern TMRCA of L1286.

 

[MOESAN]

It's a known fact that R1b entered Yamnaya from Caucasus. R1b was originally from the Iranian Plateau, but before they entered Yamnaya they first settled down around Maykop. When R1b migrated into Yamnaya R1b folks brought teal with them.


R1b or even R1a in Karelia could be brought by the same people who brought J2 to Karelia. And we all know that J2 came from West Asia. So, my point is that there were different waves of R1a and R1b from the Iranian Plateau Into the steppes. Some are very ancient, some are not very ancient...

R1b in Maykop, a known fact?
all these Y- ligneages in Iranian plateau: very clannic clans indeed: almost everyone going its way without mix with the others? maybe, but I've hard work to swallow it...
no offense, but presently I find all these ligneages flourishing in the same regions at almost same time very surprising; but we have not to fight one agains another; it's just my point with my present knowledge.
what strikes me is the very striking differences of %s in Y-R1a/R1b and others, more "southern" Y haplos (J1, J2, G, ...) in Northern Eurasia: it seems to me R1a and R1b northern ligneages had very different stories. at this point of time I hold on for a steppic central asian position of the most of R1a and R1b ligneages before converging towards West Europe and Hindu Kush or pass through SOuth caspian See to go more southwestwards; a bet; we 'll know more tomorrow.

 

[Goga]

R1b in Maykop, a known fact?
all these Y- ligneages in Iranian plateau: very clannic clans indeed: almost everyone going its way without mix with the others? maybe, but I've hard work to swallow it...
no offense, but presently I find all these ligneages flourishing in the same regions at almost same time very surprising; but we have not to fight one agains another; it's just my point with my present knowledge.
what strikes me is the very striking differences of %s in Y-R1a/R1b and others, more "southern" Y haplos (J1, J2, G, ...) in Northern Eurasia: it seems to me R1a and R1b northern ligneages had very different stories. at this point of time I hold on for a steppic central asian position of the most of R1a and R1b ligneages before converging towards West Europe and Hindu Kush or pass through SOuth caspian See to go more southwestwards; a bet; we 'll know more tomorrow.

Yeah R1b seems to be very patriarchal


You forgot ancient R1b in Africa! Also, very old subclades of R1b, like M335, P297 have been found in West Asia.


R1b in Africa was not from the Steppes, right? There is no Steppes ancestry in Africa, but West Asian ancestry instead.


R1b (R-V88) in Africa was maybe in Africa even before R1b entered Europe. It's that old. R1b in Africa is much older than R1b in Yamnaya. So, tell me how is it possible that R1b in Africa came from the Steppes???


The one and only explanation is that R1b entered AFRICA and the Steppes from West Asia.



What's going to happen i tomorrow?

 

[Sile]

Yeah R1b seems to be very patriarchal


You forgot ancient R1b in Africa! Also, very old subclades of R1b, like M335, P297 have been found in West Asia.


R1b in Africa was not from the Steppes, right? There is no Steppes ancestry in Africa, but West Asian ancestry instead.


R1b (R-V88) in Africa was maybe in Africa even before R1b entered Europe. It's that old. R1b in Africa is much older than R1b in Yamnaya. So, tell me how is it possible that R1b in Africa came from the Steppes???


The one and only explanation is that R1b entered AFRICA and the Steppes from West Asia.



What's going to happen i tomorrow?

R1b-v88 entered the northern levant ( 14000 yo ) from south caucasus ( maybe its origins are lebanon ), v88 then went to egypt (9000 yo) , then south along the nile river through sudan and beyond

I assume another line hugged the north African coast heading towards Morocco

 

[Goga]

R1b-v88 entered the northern levant ( 14000 yo ) from south caucasus ( maybe its origins are lebanon ), v88 then went to egypt (9000 yo) , then south along the nile river through sudan and beyond

I assume another line hugged the north African coast heading towards Morocco

Yeah, this is what I mean. When R1b was in Africa at so early stage it was even much, much earlier in West Asia.

I'm sure R1* evolved into R1a* and R1b* somewhere between Kurdistan and Iran. Because you can take even me as an example. My haplogroup is R1a*. Very archaic! So I guess that R1b* was also native to northern parts of West Asia. R1b in Iran exists for tens of thousands of years.

With other words R1b was in West Asia even thousands of years before proto-Indo-European languages ever existed.

And now we know for sure that there were many gene flows from West Asian/Caucasus into Yamnaya, the recent one even not so long time ago. And they found very young R1b in Yamnaya which is the same R1b as some populations south of Caucasus around ancient Maykop. There was a gene from South into North. We have got auDNA as prove and we got Y- & mtDna as prove.

The only possible explanation when very young R1b entered the Steppes (Yamnaya) from West Asia (Maykop) has to be at the time of Maykop culture.
Everything is right. The age of cultural transition from Maykop into Yamnaya, The age of R1b in Yamnaya, West Asian auDNA gene flow in Yamnaya, archaeology...


This case is no brainer, if I was a judge, I would say 'case solved' a long time ago, time to move on!

 

[Sile]

Yeah, this is what I mean. When R1b was in Africa at so early stage it was even much, much earlier in West Asia.

I'm sure R1* evolved into R1a* and R1b* somewhere between Kurdistan and Iran. Because you can take even me as an example. My haplogroup is R1a*. Very archaic! So I guess that R1b* was also native to northern parts of West Asia. R1b in Iran exists for tens of thousands of years.

With other words R1b was in West Asia even thousands of years before proto-Indo-European languages ever existed.

And now we know for sure that there were many gene flows from West Asian/Caucasus into Yamnaya, the recent one even not so long time ago. And they found very young R1b in Yamnaya which is the same R1b as some populations south of Caucasus around ancient Maykop. There was a gene from South into North. We have got auDNA as prove and we got Y- & mtDna as prove.

The only possible explanation when very young R1b entered the Steppes (Yamnaya) from West Asia (Maykop) has to be at the time of Maykop culture.
Everything is right. The age of cultural transition from Maykop into Yamnaya, The age of R1b in Yamnaya, West Asian auDNA gene flow in Yamnaya, archaeology...


This case is no brainer, if I was a judge, I would say 'case solved' a long time ago, time to move on!

I believe R1 split into R1a and R1b on the east side of the caspian sea...around modern Turkmenistan .....

I also agree that R1b yamnya was fed from southern caucasus

 

[Goga]

I believe R1 split into R1a and R1b on the east side of the caspian sea...around modern Turkmenistan ....

Yeah, that might be true. Because it's more likely that some tribes of R1a (M417) expened into the Steppes from the eastern side of the Caspian Sea, same way how hg. J ended up in Karelia. While R1b went further deep al the way to the Mediterranean Sea.

 

[Alan]

A Vadim Verenich posted Satsurbila results based on his new calculator.

0.00% Amerindian
0.00% Ancestor
30.10% ANE
13.53% ANI
0.00% Arctic
0.00% Australian
56.35% Caucasian
0.00% EastAfrican
0.00% Mesolithic
0.01% NearEast
0.00% Neolithic
0.00% NorthAfrican
0.00% Oceanic
0.00% Siberian
0.00% SouthEastAsian
0.00% Subsaharian


Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Lezgin @ 11.744658
2 Chechen @ 13.414464
3 Adygei @ 14.322171
4 North_Ossetian @ 15.559762
5 Lak @ 16.542275
6 Balkar @ 17.096389
7 Tabasaran @ 17.212844
8 Avar @ 17.268119
9 Azerbaijani_Dagestan @ 17.915575
10 Georgian_Svan @ 18.497122
11 Abhkasian @ 19.004842
12 Georgian_Imereti @ 19.981193
13 Georgian_Kakheti @ 20.180957
14 Georgian @ 20.193127
15 Kabardin @ 20.295474
16 Georgian_Megrel @ 20.315016
17 Stalskoe @ 20.46631
18 Cirkassian @ 20.591733
19 Adjara @ 21.342976
20 Kurd @ 22.41803
500 iterations.

 

[Alan]

Comment from the User MfA

With future ancient South Asian HG samples, ANE will be obsolete for the most of the Eurasia.

I agree with that, I really assume ANE is more like a zombie component. And the pre or proto "ANEs" were residing somewhere in South_Central Asia and the Iranian Plateau.

 

[LeBrok]

Comment from the User MfA


I agree with that, I really assume ANE is more like a zombie component. And the pre or proto "ANEs" were residing somewhere in South_Central Asia and the Iranian Plateau.

I still think it is more of Central Asia component. In PC charts all ANE containing samples pull directly to Mal'ta boy place.

 

[Tomenable]

^ Actually, when it comes to modern populations, the highest % of ANE admixture is among Western Siberians:

Western Siberians are 57% ANE:

From: "Reconstructing Genetic History of Siberian and Northeastern European Populations" (2015):

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/10/18/029421

Abstract:

"Siberia and Western Russia are home to over 40 culturally and linguistically diverse indigenous ethnic groups. Yet, genetic variation of peoples from this region is largely uncharacterized. We present whole-genome sequencing data from 28 individuals belonging to 14 distinct indigenous populations from that region. We combine these datasets with additional 32 modern-day and 15 ancient human genomes to build and compare autosomal, Y-DNA and mtDNA trees. Our results provide new links between modern and ancient inhabitants of Eurasia. Siberians share 38% of ancestry with descendants of the 45,000-year-old Ust-Ishim people, who were previously believed to have no modern-day descendants. Western Siberians trace 57% of their ancestry to the Ancient North Eurasians, represented by the 24,000-year-old Siberian Mal'ta boy. In addition, Siberians admixtures are present in lineages represented by Eastern European hunter-gatherers from Samara, Karelia, Hungary and Sweden (from 8,000-6,600 years ago), as well as Yamnaya culture people (5,300-4,700 years ago) and modern-day northeastern Europeans. These results provide new evidence of ancient gene flow from Siberia into Europe."

Data Supplements:

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/10/18/029421.figures-only

Data Figures:

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2015/10/18/029421.DC1/029421-2.pdf

 

[Fire Haired14]

Interesting D-stats provided by Davidski and others.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TPByWTZL2eOhq21QvpeV-PFe7Ev04FAcxeD-72fyMnA/edit#gid=0

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CHG's placement on human tree?

Putting humans into a simple tree is very difficult. With ancient genomes which moderns are a mixture of it is much easier. Laz 2014 created a very reasonable tree with ancient genomes of human genetics. According to Laz's tree CHG has WHG-like and Basal Eurasian ancestry. Along with this CHG probably has MA1-type ancestry(will have to be confirmed with more formal stats). In no way does the data suggest CHG was pure Basal Eurasian like Jones 2015 modeled CHG.

We'll need many more formal stats, ADMIXTURE, PCA, etc., etc., to understand where in the human tree CHG is.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

CHG ancestry in West Asia?

Formal stats confirm there's a lot ancestry closely related to CHG in South Asia and Yamnaya. But what about West Asia? ADMIXTURE and F3-drift stats from Jones 2015 tell us CHG's closest modern relatives live in the Caucasus. F3-drift stats didn't show an especially close relation with other West Asians. However CHG component of ADMIXTURE is also very high in the rest of West Asia.

We're going to need formal stats, not just ADMIXTURE, to back up the idea of CHG-like ancestry in West Asia. F3(not drift) shows that Assyrian/Lezgin/Turkish fit as a mixture of CHG+EEF(best proxy of Neolithic Near East?).

Furthermore D-stats showed that EEF and WHG have a closer relation to modern Caucasus than to CHG. EEF especially has a much closer relation to modern Caucasus. Lezgin appears to have MA1 or European-like ancestry on top of CHG. Loschbour and MA1 is closer to Lezgin as opposed to CHG than Stuttgart. Weirdly Yamnaya(had lots of ANE and WHG) wasn't as significantly closer to Lezgin as opposed to CHG.

 

[Fire Haired14]

Ancient DNA has shown West Eurasians are mixtures of various very differnt ancient people. One way or another these ancient people are the source for similarities and many of the differences between West Eurasians in phenotype. I suspect most "Caucasoid" features come from Paleolithic West Asia with "ENF" people.

Look at Indians! They have very Caucasoid-features and are likely a mixture of CHG and earlier South Asians. Where did they get the Caucasoid features? Obviously from CHG who were Paleolithic West Asians.

West Asians and Europeans have very few connections since the Paleolithic but the shared features are still there!! It's very interesting to learn where the features come from. What did WHG, EEF, EHG, CHG, etc. look like? What did Yamnaya look like? Even though West Eurasians are much more advanced than say Oceania, they have just as distant Paleolithic origins. They're the story of early non-African humans on the western side of the world while Oceania is the story of non-African humans from the South East. There were Caucasoid-looking people in the same primitive lifestyle as Oceania today.

 

[Tomenable]

Hunters of Sri Lanka - the Vedda people - whose native language is neither Indo-European nor Dravidian - also have these features:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedda_language#Substratum_influence_in_Sinhalese

This first old guy has blue eyes, it seems: